The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Its no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Wannabebig New Member
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    routine critique

    Edited Routine in new post in this thread
    Last edited by bgb1990; 05-23-2011 at 01:02 PM.

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  3. #2
    House Lannister
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    It's a fuckton of volume. Some of the back work looks kind of redundant. I don't understand the reasoning behind the cable rows after the barbell rows and the lat pulldowns after the chinups.

    EDIT: Post edited due to concerns over suggested routine. My apologies BGB.
    Last edited by chevelle2291; 05-18-2011 at 09:20 PM.

  4. #3
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    Need to know what your goals are and a little backround. overall looks solid, one critique I would have a complete rest day where you dont do anything evev cardio

  5. #4
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    @chevelle thanks for the input. one question though is that routine he outlined there seems like a lot of volume too. like he has 3 pressing exercises back to back to back for chest.

    @goll my goal is to use this bulking. i used to use a routine like this and then plateaued so i switched to 5/3/1 and have been on that for a while. so would u suggest taking sunday off and moving HIT to a different day?

  6. #5
    House Lannister
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    Well, it is a good amount of volume, but he is really only doing two maximal sets to failure for most exercises. The other sets are just heavy work sets, not maximal effort. You're only working that muscle 1x a week so you should be hitting it with a decent amount of volume.

    Any reason you want to lift 5x a week? You could probably just do a 4-day chest/legs/shoulders/back split and get along just fine. IMO, you don't really need one day for just arms, but that's up to you.

  7. #6
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    i wanted to give arms their own day cause they have been lacking a lot lately. i only have 14.5" arms and want that to get bigger.

  8. #7
    House Lannister
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    BGB, I deleted the program I posted because i had some concerns over the routine and it's decision to put legs/back training back-to-back. I thought it would be a bit much on one's lower back.

    I'd strongly consider HCT-12 from personal experience (I'm using a version of it right now) or else just a basic 4-day split of chest/legs/shoulders/back like you were doing on 5/3/1. Up the volume, ramp up to one or two all-out sets, 1-3 exercises for each muscle group and that's it.

    This is a four day I think would bring decent results. I"ve never done it, I just came up with it. Take that for what it's worth:

    Monday: Chest/Triceps
    Incline Barbell Press
    ramping set
    ramping set
    1x4-8
    1x10-12
    Flat Dumbbell Bench
    ramping set
    1x4-8
    1x10-12
    Dips or Close-Grip Bench
    ramping set
    ramping set
    1x6-8
    1x10-12
    Dumbbell Flys or Cable x-overs
    1x6-8
    1x10-12
    Cable Tricep Extensions
    ramping set
    1x6-8
    1x10-12

    Tuesday:Quads/Hams
    Squats or Front Squats
    ramping set
    ramping set
    ramping set
    1x4-6
    1x10-20 (preferably 20)
    SLDL
    ramping set
    ramping set
    1x4-6
    1x8-10
    Hack Squat or Close-stance leg press
    ramping set
    ramping set
    1x6-8
    1x10-20
    Lying Leg Curls
    ramping set
    1x8-10
    1x12-15

    Wednesday: OFF/Light cardio

    Thursday: Back/Biceps
    Rack Pulls or T-bar Rows or Deadlifts
    ramping set
    ramping set
    1x4-6
    1x10-12
    Chin-ups
    ramping set
    1x6-8
    1x10-15
    Dumbbell Rows
    ramping set
    1x4-6
    1x10-12
    Close-grip Lat Pull-Downs
    1x6-8
    1x10-15
    EZ Bar Curls
    1x6-8
    1x10-15
    Incline DB Hammer Curls
    1x6-8
    1x10-12

    Friday: Shoulders
    Seated or Standing Military Press/Calves
    ramping set
    ramping set
    ramping set
    1x4-8
    1x10-12
    Seated Calf Raise
    1x10 (slooowww negative, pause at bottom)
    Seated Military DB Press
    1x8-10
    1x12-15
    DB Side Laterals
    1x8-10
    1x15-20
    Rear Delt Pec Deck or Lying rear delt raises
    1x8-10
    1x12-15
    DB Front Raises
    1x8-10
    1x12-15



    ramping sets are just some moderately heavy sets to get used to the movement. Your focus should be on the two final sets for each lift. You can increase the volume if needs be and if you can handle it.

    I hear you on the arm day, I really do. My arms suck too. However, I really don't think you're going to notice much of a benefit from one day of just arms. If you want to do it then I'd just tack it on to the end of the week and do two exercises, 2 sets each for both bis/tris. Perhaps forearms as well.
    Last edited by chevelle2291; 05-18-2011 at 09:44 PM.

  9. #8
    Wannabebig New Member
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    whats the difference then between ramping sets and pyramiding? cause when i pyramid i usually dont fail on the last one for the first 3 sets where i do 10 reps, 8 reps, or 6 reps

  10. #9
    House Lannister
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgb1990 View Post
    whats the difference then between ramping sets and pyramiding? cause when i pyramid i usually dont fail on the last one for the first 3 sets where i do 10 reps, 8 reps, or 6 reps
    ramping you are just getting your body used to heavier weights. Pyramiding is set up so that you descend from 12 reps down to 6 or 4 reps for each set but each set 'counts' so to speak and you are lifting for maximal weight for that amount of reps, regardless of reaching momentary failure or not.

    I'm not a big fan of pyramiding. I think it is flat out stupid to do a set of 12 reps, 10 reps, 8 reps, etc. and then do your heaviest set, 4 reps, last. RPT, or reverse pyramid is much better IMO.

    ramping is just an approach that decreases the risk of injury and primes the target muscle group for the maximal sets.

    Example of ramping: (maximal set weight is 200 lbs for 6-8 reps)
    bar x 10-15
    95x10
    135x6
    160x6
    180x3
    200x6-8 *MAXIMAL SET*


    In no way are you really pushing yourself on the ramping sets. They are used as a prep for the one or two heavy sets. They don't count and you don't keep track of them.

  11. #10
    Wannabebig New Member
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    ah gotcha thanks

  12. #11
    House Lannister
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgb1990 View Post
    ah gotcha thanks
    No problem. Let me know what you decide. Also, start a journal. The guys in the journal section are far more experienced than me and quite a few run 4-5 day splits.

  13. #12
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    i changed my routine around due to the mass of volume what you guys think now?

    Monday: Chest
    Bench Press- 4 set pyramid 10-4
    Incline Bench- 4x 4-10
    Flat Bench Fly- 4x 6-10
    Weighted Dips- 4x 8-12

    Tuesday: Back
    Deadlift- 4 sets pyramid 10-4
    Barbell Row- 4 sets pyramid 10-4
    Weighted Pullups- 4x 8-12
    Goodmornings- 3x 8-12

    Wednesday:
    Cardio- 30min low intensity

    Thursday: Shoulders
    Barbell Shoulder Press- 4 sets pyramid 10-4
    Lat Raise- 4x 6-10
    Bent Over Lat Raise- 4x 6-10
    Barbell Upright Row- 4x 6-10
    DB Shrug- 4x 6-10

    Friday: Arms
    Preacher Curls- 4 sets pyramid 10-4
    Hammer Curls- 4x 6-10
    Close Grip Bench Press- 4 sets pyramid 10-4
    Skull Crushers- 4x 6-10
    Wrist Curls- 1x 20

    Saturday: Legs/Abs
    Squat- 5 sets pyramid 12-4
    Leg Press- 4x 6-10
    Extensions- 3x 6-10
    Curls- 3x 6-10
    Calf Raise- 4x 8-12
    Weighted Incline Sit up- 4x 10-15
    Hanging Knee Raise- 4x 10-15
    Lying Leg Raise- 4x 10

    Sunday:
    Carido- HIIT routine
    Last edited by bgb1990; 05-23-2011 at 01:16 PM.

  14. #13
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    Just wayyyyyy too many movements and wayyy too many sets. I don't like barbell rows after deadlifts either...too much lower back strain on the same day. Also, Monday and Thursday share too many of the same muscles...Monday's workout will be detrimental to Thursdays. Then Friday you are crushing your triceps and some chest again (close grip still hits chest) then coming back two days later on your chest workout again. You won't be able to progress on this.

    I don't know your lifting background, but you cannot go wrong with the hct-12 exercise split...you can either do 1 day on 1 day off or just 3 days per week A-B-A.

    Just do HCT-12 or if you don't like clustered sets, do the hct-12 exercise setup but take out the clusters and add another straight set or two.

    high Frequency + high intensity + just enough volume= win.
    Last edited by mchicia1; 05-23-2011 at 01:34 PM.

  15. #14
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  16. #15
    House Lannister
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    That is still a fuckton of volume man.


    Have you done a high volume split before? It will BURY you if you can't handle high volume.
    Last edited by chevelle2291; 05-23-2011 at 02:23 PM.

  17. #16
    Wannabebig New Member
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    yea last august-april i did a routine similar to this, with even more volume actually. i seemed to progress fairly well, then hit a plateau and took a rest week then kept progressing.

    should i drop some of the accessory lifts like flys and raises to 3 sets as opposed to 4?

  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgb1990 View Post
    yea last august-april i did a routine similar to this, with even more volume actually. i seemed to progress fairly well, then hit a plateau and took a rest week then kept progressing.

    should i drop some of the accessory lifts like flys and raises to 3 sets as opposed to 4?
    Drop the routine entirely and pick a proven routine...you will progress longer AND faster.

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgb1990 View Post
    i changed my routine around due to the mass of volume what you guys think now?

    Monday: Chest
    Bench Press- 4 set pyramid 10-4
    Incline Bench- 4x 4-10
    Flat Bench Fly- 4x 6-10
    Weighted Dips- 4x 8-12

    Tuesday: Back
    Deadlift- 4 sets pyramid 10-4
    Barbell Row- 4 sets pyramid 10-4
    Weighted Pullups- 4x 8-12
    Goodmornings- 3x 8-12

    Wednesday:
    Cardio- 30min low intensity

    Thursday: Shoulders
    Barbell Shoulder Press- 4 sets pyramid 10-4
    Lat Raise- 4x 6-10
    Bent Over Lat Raise- 4x 6-10
    Barbell Upright Row- 4x 6-10
    DB Shrug- 4x 6-10

    Friday: Arms
    Preacher Curls- 4 sets pyramid 10-4
    Hammer Curls- 4x 6-10
    Close Grip Bench Press- 4 sets pyramid 10-4
    Skull Crushers- 4x 6-10
    Wrist Curls- 1x 20

    Saturday: Legs/Abs
    Squat- 5 sets pyramid 12-4
    Leg Press- 4x 6-10
    Extensions- 3x 6-10
    Curls- 3x 6-10
    Calf Raise- 4x 8-12
    Weighted Incline Sit up- 4x 10-15
    Hanging Knee Raise- 4x 10-15
    Lying Leg Raise- 4x 10

    Sunday:
    Carido- HIIT routine
    Problems with that routine are as follows: (1) As others have said it is a lot of volume. That's fine IF you can handle it, but if not you are looking at stagnation if not regression and possible injury. 2. It is extremely unbalanced. You've four upper body days and only one leg day. 3. Any chest or back work almost always includes shoulders. That is a ton of shoulder work over three days with only one day of rest in between.
    4. You are training every day (including cardio). Again if you can handle it fine...most people I think would burn out though.

  20. #19
    House Lannister
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    bgb, what kind of results did you see on the other routine? Size/strength increases, etc....

    I have no problem with higher volume, but straight setting what you have listed above would destroy many.

    Have you looked at Baby Got Back? That's a pretty legit 4-day routine with a damn good amount of volume.

  21. #20
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    @songsangnim you say it's unbalanced as far as uppers and lowers go, what would u suggest to fix that?

    @chevelle I got much stronger with the routine with more volume. I've been on the 5\3\1 4 day split routine and I've seen differences but i feel like I'm not doing enough with just 4 days a week.

  22. #21
    House Lannister
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgb1990 View Post
    @songsangnim you say it's unbalanced as far as uppers and lowers go, what would u suggest to fix that?

    @chevelle I got much stronger with the routine with more volume. I've been on the 5\3\1 4 day split routine and I've seen differences but i feel like I'm not doing enough with just 4 days a week.
    Let's talk specifics. How much weight did you gain? How much did your lifts go up? Bodyfat increase? Anyone notice the gain in weight in a positive way?

    I don't really have any issues with your split being more upper dominant. It really isn't. It's a standard 4-day with an extra arm day. Plenty of guys do it and with success. Legs are worked twice with deadlifts/GMings (hams/glutes) and then quads dominant on the dedicated legs day.

    It is just a shitton of volume man.


    Again, if you want a reasonable amount of volume and a solid routine I'd go with BGB. If you are hell bent on doing this routine then do it. I wish you all the best with it (serious). If it doesn't work for you then come back and we'll figure something out.

    FYI though, two of the biggest guys I know here are Invain and F=MA and both have used or are currently using 4-day splits. Just a thought.

  23. #22
    Senior Member ZAR-FIT's Avatar
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    I am also a very high volume lifter... I definately do more than what you posted. My question to you is how is this routine taking you to complete? How long do you lift for?

    Also, what are you eating/drinking before, during, and after your weight training.
    Post what your pre, peri, and post nutrition is in your "bulk program" thread in the nutrition forum.
    Last edited by ZAR-FIT; 05-23-2011 at 11:26 PM.
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  24. #23
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    @chevelle when I was on that other routine i gained 34lbs in 20 weeks but that was because i messed up my calorie calculations.my bench went from 185x3 to 230x4. Deeds went from 365x4 to 405x4. Squat wapent from 300x4 to 405x4. Military went from 135x4 to 190x5.

    @zar-fit the old routine i did used to take me about an hour to complete. My chest day was bench, incline, flys, low cable flys, and pullovers. Pre workout i eat oatmeal and take jack3d. I drink water during, and after i eat 2 scoops of whey protein and fruit.

  25. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgb1990 View Post
    @songsangnim you say it's unbalanced as far as uppers and lowers go, what would u suggest to fix that?

    @chevelle I got much stronger with the routine with more volume. I've been on the 5\3\1 4 day split routine and I've seen differences but i feel like I'm not doing enough with just 4 days a week.
    I'd split up the leg day work and put in an extra leg day in place of the shoulder day. Shoulders get hit hard on chest day and then again on back. If you feel they must have direct work you could always train them at the end of either chest or back day.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 05-24-2011 at 08:11 AM.

  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevelle2291 View Post
    I don't really have any issues with your split being more upper dominant. It really isn't. It's a standard 4-day with an extra arm day. Plenty of guys do it and with success. Legs are worked twice with deadlifts/GMings (hams/glutes) and then quads dominant on the dedicated legs day.

    .
    Deadlifts and GM's are just as much as a back exercise though. And even if we subtract the arms day for the upper body total...and count deadlifts as a leg exercise..he's still doing double the amount of sets for upper body that he's doing for lower body. Legs are half your body...hitting them with a few sets of deadlifts/GM earlier and then a lot of volume at the end of the week isn't the best way to program this.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 05-24-2011 at 08:04 AM.

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