The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
Latest Article

The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

It’s no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
More Recent Articles
Contrast Training for Size
By: Lee Boyce
An Interview with Marianne Kane of Girls Gone Strong
By: Jordan Syatt
What Supplements Should I be Taking? By: Jay Wainwright
Bench Like a Girl By: Julia Ladewski
Some Thoughts on Building a Big Pull By: Christopher Mason

Facebook Join Facebook Group       Twitter Follow on Twitter       rss Subscribe via RSS
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 48
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    142

    shoulders without overhead

    Is it still possible to build shoulders without overhead lifting?

  2.    Support Wannabebig and use AtLarge Nutrition Supplements!


  3. #2
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    13,887
    Yes, lifts like bench press, bar dips, rowing, and laterals to different directions should do a decent enough job.
    _________
    ______
    ___

    Off Road Journal

    http://www.wannabebig.com/logo/alnlogo_white.gif

    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements – Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

  4. #3
    Father of Three Bosch232's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Lincoln, NE
    Posts
    677
    Can you do dips, or is a shoulder injury preventing this?

    A movement I've been liking lately (and I don't know if there's a specific name for it) it to lay on a 45 deg bench, facing down, and row dumb bells. Rear delts, man!
    "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." ~ C.S. Lewis

  5. #4
    Pro Strongman | Moderator Tom Mutaffis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by alert20 View Post
    Is it still possible to build shoulders without overhead lifting?
    Yes - you could do side raises, front raises, upright rows, and rear deltoid work. To mix things up you can do a mix of free weight and machine (cable) work.
    ASC 105 Kg Pro Strongman | My Website | Facebook Fan Page

    Weight: 235 lbs | Front Squat: 510 lbs | Overhead: 375 lbs | Deadlift: 700 lbs

    Supplements: www.AtLargeNutrition.com

  6. #5
    Senior Member tom183's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,374

  7. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Wojo on his shoulder size:

    http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=43794

    "This exercise has helped my delt development the most - no question about it. I didn't even do any overhead presses for many years and only relied on these. "


    Last edited by mchicia1; 06-06-2011 at 07:48 AM.

  8. #7
    Rory Parker Behemoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    5,320
    Lateral raises > an overhead lift IMO.
    accuflex - LOLZZZZ!!!11one1!! SOEM PPL WORK THRE ARMZ!!!!11!! LETS KILL THEM111

    "You can fake effort with grunts and clanging weights but quiet, consistent hard work coupled with gradual strength increases earns universal respect in gyms" - Steve Colescott



    I'd rather Situation be a member of this board. -Joey54

  9. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Quote Originally Posted by Behemoth View Post
    Lateral raises > an overhead lift IMO.
    I have puny side delts and strong front delts from doing only pressing movements for the last few years. I tried lateral raises last upper body workout. Using the form Wojo uses, I was only able to do them correctly with FIVE pounds. If you lift with your traps, it is an easy movement...I could probably do 10 times that weight...but if you really only lift with your shoulders, it is difficult.

  10. #9
    Soilwork addict.
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Cocoa Beach, Florida
    Posts
    439
    Quote Originally Posted by mchicia1 View Post
    I have puny side delts and strong front delts from doing only pressing movements for the last few years. I tried lateral raises last upper body workout. Using the form Wojo uses, I was only able to do them correctly with FIVE pounds. If you lift with your traps, it is an easy movement...I could probably do 10 times that weight...but if you really only lift with your shoulders, it is difficult.
    I have been doing these for a while to achieve a more even developement of my shoulders. In about 3 months I have worked up to 30lbs hahaha......
    Quote Originally Posted by StormTheBeach View Post
    I think I am just going to start posting dick pictures on here until this thread gets deleted.
    18% BF down from 25%+ since April. Halfway to abs.

    Current 1200+ gym total. 214 lbs 5'10.5" 36.5" waist.

    Working on correcting some imbalances at the moment.

  11. #10
    Senior Member cphafner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The Big Apple
    Posts
    7,701
    Sure can. Go search for mountaindogg training article, not on ebb. John meadows talks about this exact topic.
    My Journal
    http://wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=119765

    I think this is possibly the all-time best response on WBB. - Jorge Sanchez

    "you're an animal eat like one damn it!" - Wikked1

    "Now we're finally getting to the chicken or the egg question," I grinned. "Did I eat all that food because my size gives me more of an appetite, or did I get to be this big because I've been forcing myself to eat like this for years?"

    From A Body Builder is Born

    i knew you were a beast but not that kinda of a beast that eats grown men and children.. lilmase

  12. #11
    Moderator joey54's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Palmyra, PA
    Posts
    5,730
    Food for thought. And I realize one can argue my use of using a pro as an example. I don't care. In my opinion Kevin Levrone Had the best shoulder development ever. Again in my opinion. That motherfucker did a lot of heavy overhead pressing, and just pressing in general.

    If you feel you are at an advanced level and doing side lateral raises with super strict form is going to take you further, by all means go for it. If you aren't, start pressing something heavy over your fucking head.


    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements – Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

    Just get under the bar!

  13. #12
    Senior Member ZAR-FIT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Rahway NJ
    Posts
    202
    Quote Originally Posted by joey54 View Post
    Food for thought. And I realize one can argue my use of using a pro as an example. I don't care. In my opinion Kevin Levrone Had the best shoulder development ever. Again in my opinion. That motherfucker did a lot of heavy overhead pressing, and just pressing in general.

    If you feel you are at an advanced level and doing side lateral raises with super strict form is going to take you further, by all means go for it. If you aren't, start pressing something heavy over your fucking head.
    Perfectly Said Joey
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brett...46392658804230 --Actor, Bodybuilder, Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist

    Follow my Workouts - http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...olume-Workouts

    http://www.atlargenutrition.com/

  14. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Absolutely nothing wrong with doing both though, advanced or not. I am just throwing them in for 1 set after my normal upper body days.

  15. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    1,129
    Quote Originally Posted by joey54 View Post
    Food for thought. And I realize one can argue my use of using a pro as an example. I don't care. In my opinion Kevin Levrone Had the best shoulder development ever. Again in my opinion. That motherfucker did a lot of heavy overhead pressing, and just pressing in general.

    If you feel you are at an advanced level and doing side lateral raises with super strict form is going to take you further, by all means go for it. If you aren't, start pressing something heavy over your fucking head.
    Another thing to consider is that ohp is less likely to be done with an ego. A guy that is lifting 300lbs overhead knows he's strong. But there is a huge tendency with laterals for people to fling the weights around. You'll see tiny guys doing "strict" reps with 50s.

    But this is not the debate here. That is a misuse of the exercise. Assuming you do both exercises correctly, it's hard to say one is better or worse. OHP allows the use of heavier weights and the possibility of lower reps. Low reps on laterals is a bad idea. Laterals have advantages, but the biggest one is targeting the shoulders for those that don't get enough of that from pressing.

    IMO, this is how I'd break things down. If overhead pressing (or any pressing really) hits your delts hard and you can do it safely, then this is your best bet ALONE.

    If OHP doesn't quite hit your delts hard enough (maybe it's more of a tricep exercise for you) then you should do some mix of laterals and pressing.

    Lastly, if OHP bothers your shoulders, then work mainly just laterals.

  16. #15
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    13,887
    Quote Originally Posted by joey54 View Post
    If you feel you are at an advanced level and doing side lateral raises with super strict form is going to take you further, by all means go for it. If you aren't, start pressing something heavy over your fucking head.
    Amen...

    I was going to say something similar, but I get tired of sounding like a broken record sometimes.
    _________
    ______
    ___

    Off Road Journal

    http://www.wannabebig.com/logo/alnlogo_white.gif

    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements – Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

  17. #16
    Soilwork addict.
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Cocoa Beach, Florida
    Posts
    439
    I take a three pronged aproach to shoulders. I do laterals after free weight ohp because I dont feel like ohp actually hits the medial deltoids well. I treat the OHP as the main movement that I can go heavy on and use(~3x5) laterals as more of an accessory lift with more volume(~3x8). I get the rear delts with ( ~3x8) pendlay rows after bench on another day.

    Is this a sensible approach to training delts? I have seen consistant progress....
    Last edited by 4g64fiero; 06-08-2011 at 02:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by StormTheBeach View Post
    I think I am just going to start posting dick pictures on here until this thread gets deleted.
    18% BF down from 25%+ since April. Halfway to abs.

    Current 1200+ gym total. 214 lbs 5'10.5" 36.5" waist.

    Working on correcting some imbalances at the moment.

  18. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fanelli View Post
    Another thing to consider is that ohp is less likely to be done with an ego. A guy that is lifting 300lbs overhead knows he's strong. But there is a huge tendency with laterals for people to fling the weights around. You'll see tiny guys doing "strict" reps with 50s.

    But this is not the debate here. That is a misuse of the exercise. Assuming you do both exercises correctly, it's hard to say one is better or worse. OHP allows the use of heavier weights and the possibility of lower reps. Low reps on laterals is a bad idea.

    IMO, this is how I'd break things down. If overhead pressing (or any pressing really) hits your delts hard and you can do it safely, then this is your best bet ALONE.

    If OHP doesn't quite hit your delts hard enough (maybe it's more of a tricep exercise for you) then you should do some mix of laterals and pressing.

    Lastly, if OHP bothers your shoulders, then work mainly just laterals.
    @ Bold #1: Have you ever lifted in any commercial gym before? If so, how can you make that comment? I still have yet to see a person do a correct overhead press, seated or standing. It is usually ton of weight combined with 1/4 ROM. I literally saw a 160 pound kid the other day load up 225, SCREAM AT THE TOP OF HIS LUNGS, then unracked the bar and did 4 1/8 reps with two spotters. I see this stuff all the time. Very rare that a lifter will go full ROM on OHP.

    @ Bold #2: I agree.

    @ Bold #3: Disagree...it does not hurt at all to add laterals as a supplementary exercise to your presses. Targets completely different muscle fibers. Also, if you don't feel your OHP in your shoulders than you should reassess your form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Off Road View Post
    Amen...
    I was going to say something similar, but I get tired of sounding like a broken record sometimes.
    Again, if you want to look like a bodybuilder, you better train like one. HOWEVER, I do not think you should drop a pressing movement for a lateral movement unless you are an advanced guy like Wojo who has most likely exhausted all his progress on pressing movements. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with adding them as a supplementary exercise at the end of an upper body workout.
    Last edited by mchicia1; 06-08-2011 at 02:57 PM.

  19. #18
    Moderator joey54's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Palmyra, PA
    Posts
    5,730
    Quote Originally Posted by 4g64fiero View Post
    I take a three pronged aproach to shoulders. I do laterals after free weight ohp because I dont feel like ohp actually hits the medial deltoids well. I treat the OHP as the main movement that I can go heavy on and use(~3x5) laterals as more of an accessory lift with more volume(~3x8). I get the rear delts with ( ~3x8) pendlay rows after bench on another day.

    Is this a sensible approach to training delts? I have seen consistant progress....
    If making consistent progress, do whatever you have been doing. That is always the most important thing provided you are using proper form and not hurting yourself.
    Last edited by joey54; 06-08-2011 at 03:38 PM.


    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements – Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

    Just get under the bar!

  20. #19
    Moderator joey54's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Palmyra, PA
    Posts
    5,730
    Quote Originally Posted by mchicia1 View Post
    Absolutely nothing wrong with doing both though, advanced or not. I am just throwing them in for 1 set after my normal upper body days.
    Completely agree. I include both in my training right now as well. There were times when I did laterals first and presses second.


    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements – Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

    Just get under the bar!

  21. #20
    Moderator joey54's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Palmyra, PA
    Posts
    5,730
    Also, my post was in no way directed to anyone posting here. Just providing the other side of the coin so to speak. I have stated this before, one needs to find what works best for them. At the same time, and I have been guilty of this too, many think they are advanced and need to do special tweaks when all they really need to do is lift heavy and put their time in at the dinner table. The simplest approach is sometimes the best, but also isn't always the easiest.

    I am ranting more than anything, but I certainly am not implying people here fit the description above. Just heed the advice of those like Dante Trudel and Jim Wendler. Have a purpose for doing an exercise and find the ones which work the best for your goals.

    Now someone embed Levorne overheading 4 plates!
    Last edited by joey54; 06-08-2011 at 03:44 PM.


    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements – Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

    Just get under the bar!

  22. #21
    House Lannister
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    5,282
    Quote Originally Posted by joey54 View Post
    Now someone embed Levorne overheading 4 plates!
    Last edited by chevelle2291; 06-08-2011 at 03:49 PM.

  23. #22
    Moderator Off Road's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    13,887
    Most of the pros that have switched over to isolation-only routines have already put in their time with the big compound lifts. They've built their foundation already.
    _________
    ______
    ___

    Off Road Journal

    http://www.wannabebig.com/logo/alnlogo_white.gif

    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements – Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

  24. #23
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Morrisville,PA
    Posts
    3,071
    In before someone makes a smith machine comment.

  25. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    1,129
    Quote Originally Posted by mchicia1 View Post
    @ Bold #1: Have you ever lifted in any commercial gym before? If so, how can you make that comment? I still have yet to see a person do a correct overhead press, seated or standing. It is usually ton of weight combined with 1/4 ROM. I literally saw a 160 pound kid the other day load up 225, SCREAM AT THE TOP OF HIS LUNGS, then unracked the bar and did 4 1/8 reps with two spotters. I see this stuff all the time. Very rare that a lifter will go full ROM on OHP.

    @ Bold #2: I agree.

    @ Bold #3: Disagree...it does not hurt at all to add laterals as a supplementary exercise to your presses. Targets completely different muscle fibers. Also, if you don't feel your OHP in your shoulders than you should reassess your form.
    #1 - I train in a commercial gym and haven't really observed this. I rarely ever see guys doing ANY bb overhead pressing and almost all of them are doing full ROM. They are using a lot of leg drive for weigths that dont warrant it though.

    But with laterals, Ive observed just about everyone going way to heavy and using way too much "english". They might as well do cleans or high pulls with a barbell.

    #3 - Ya, probably wouldn't hurt, but if you dont need it, then I dont see any reason to throw them in there just for the hell of it. And the last part of this statement I disagree. Form can be a factor, just as individual biomecanics can as well. But if you are getting stronger and lifting heavy, I dont think this is the issue. Some lifts for some people are just not good for certain muscles. And I dont really see how laterals work different muscle fibers that OHP cant work.
    Last edited by Dan Fanelli; 06-08-2011 at 06:29 PM.

  26. #25
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    Posts
    12,607
    What was the original question? Right, the answer is yes. I do almost nothing direct for shoulders and mine are pretty good sized. My training partner's are bigger and ditto for him. Nutshell, if you have a big bench you will have good shoulders.

    With that said, why the question?


    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements – Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

Similar Threads

  1. Overhead Squats
    By MNRob in forum Powerlifting and Strength Training
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-13-2008, 09:49 AM
  2. Overhead PR
    By Deadlifter in forum Members' Pics and Videos
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 12-09-2006, 11:44 AM
  3. overhead
    By Odysseas in forum Members' Pics and Videos
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 09-20-2005, 06:48 AM
  4. Overhead Shrug
    By Keith Wassung in forum Bodybuilding & Weight Training
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-18-2005, 12:27 PM
  5. How Necessary Are Overhead Presses.. ?
    By MonStar in forum Bodybuilding & Weight Training
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 06-12-2002, 08:37 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •