The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Its no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #26
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    Ah yes yet another beginner lifter who drinks the Broz koolaid. Don't get me wrong, I like his attitude about doing whatever it takes to put Americans on the podium and some of his athletes are doing some great lifting, but where are the results on the platform (I'm sorry but this is where it counts, not in the gym). Guys like Pendlay and him can hopefully start producing some top 5 lifters through the support system they've setup.

    But PLing and OLing are two completely different sports and feature two very different skill sets. You're talking about supercompensation in the OP with regards to PLing. In fact, the Soviet Union implemented shock cycles and became very dominant with them back in the day in OLing. Recovery for a PLer is completely different than that of an OLer who spends a far greater time with high bar squats and non-eccentric lifting.

    Not everyone espouses the use of the Bulgarian method. Even the Chinese do a great amount of hypertrophy work and other non-competition lifts and variants in their training and they are spitting out medals left and right. So think and analyze before you spit the opinions of other people.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial View Post
    So your points are, essentially:

    1) One of the guys you mention isn't cherry-picking his athletes, because a) you say so, and b) he has a bunch of accomplished athletes.

    2) There are a few other guys who espouse these sorts of routines and do well.

    3) A newbie with unremarkable strength can do high volume routines like this and not overtrain.

    4) Look, there are a bunch of strong guys (who are clearly exceptional talents) who've done the same thing.


    You're entitled to an opinion, certainly.... and I hope that's all this is. Because that was a bit of a throwaway post, with zero actual proof for a single thing you've stated.
    If we're going to keep the door open for this guy to post, expect many more throw away posts with no proof of anything.

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  3. #28
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    1) Am I right in thinking the mechanism of super-compensation following over-reaching is hormonal? So a month of exceptionally heavy training leads to a slight regression, then the endocrine system has a chance to rebound and you come back slightly stronger? This isn't a question to the OP - who I don't expect to answer - but just a general question to someone who can explain the science behind it. I saw Chris mention it in the DT article. You see these terms thrown around occasionally and I'm still curious how it actually works.

    2) There was a good thread a couple of years back which had people like Travis, Sensei and Fuzzy debating high-frequency Oly training vs. Powerlifting training. It was a good, fairly informative read. Anyone care to find and link it?
    Last edited by J.C.; 08-03-2011 at 09:47 AM.

  4. #29
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    I don't think anyone can say for sure what the mechanism is behind the supercompensation. There is some evidence that the testosterone/cortisol ratio decreases with overreaching and rebounds after rest. The problem is that we don't know if those hormone fluctuations are actually causing the supercompensation or if they are simply rebounding along side the other physiologic variables.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
    1) Am I right in thinking the mechanism of super-compensation following over-reaching is hormonal? So a month of exceptionally heavy training leads to a slight regression, then the endocrine system has a chance to rebound and you come back slightly stronger? This isn't a question to the OP - who I don't expect to answer - but just a general question to someone who can explain the science behind it. I saw Chris mention it in the DT article. You see these terms thrown around occasionally and I'm still curious how it actually works.

    2) There was a good thread a couple of years back which had people like Travis, Sensei and Fuzzy debating high-frequency Oly training vs. Powerlifting training. It was a good, fairly informative read. Anyone care to find and link it?

    1) There are a couple theories about super compensation/delayed transformation. I tend to believe the hormonal rebound has a lot to do with it. There is a theory that it has to do with exterme substrate depletion that then rebounds after a lay-off. If you are progrssing correctly, there has to be some fiber typing/nervous adaptations that take place as well. I think it is a combination of a lot of factors. I know Bompa suggests 2-5weeks of deloading after highly concentrated loading to get the most out of the super compensation effect.

    Oh yea, and just to add my 2 cents to the thread, overtraining is stupid and doesn't exist. Neither does overreaching. There is good programing and shitty programming. Good programming gets you strong based off of your current trainability. Shitty programming causes you to do too much because you are too UNDERtrained to handle it.

  6. #31
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormTheBeach View Post
    1)

    Oh yea, and just to add my 2 cents to the thread, overtraining is stupid and doesn't exist. Neither does overreaching. There is good programing and shitty programming. Good programming gets you strong based off of your current trainability. Shitty programming causes you to do too much because you are too UNDERtrained to handle it.
    So you don't believe it's possible to tax a system beyond its natural recuperative capabilities, to the point where performance is impaired and damage outweighs growth?
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial View Post
    So you don't believe it's possible to tax a system beyond its natural recuperative capabilities, to the point where performance is impaired and damage outweighs growth?

    I definitely believe that. I believe that is the case with shitty programming. I also believe you just described Rhabdomyolysis.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormTheBeach View Post
    I definitely believe that. I believe that is the case with shitty programming. I also believe you just described Rhabdomyolysis.
    No, not really.

    Rhabdomyolysis is a very specific clinical condition with multiple possible causes , from trauma to, yes, acute overtraining/overstimulation. The clinical presentation is very specific, and while the set of conditions I described can POTENTIALLY cause rhabdomyolysis, it is neither remotely sufficient nor required for said diagnosis.

    Please, no more throwaway comments.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial View Post
    No, not really.

    Rhabdomyolysis is a very specific clinical condition with multiple possible causes , from trauma to, yes, acute overtraining/overstimulation. The clinical presentation is very specific, and while the set of conditions I described can POTENTIALLY cause rhabdomyolysis, it is neither remotely sufficient nor required for said diagnosis.

    Please, no more throwaway comments.

    You forgot to mention how bad it makes your piss taste... and there is still no such thing as overtraining.

  10. #35
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    Thats why I love this website. Members with great critical thinking skills and experience to add to it. You cant survive as a fanboy here. Speaking in absolutes based of limited anecdotes will only back you into a corner when you have no proof or examples on hand.

    That being said, discussing overtraining when noone can actually agree on what it means is futile. People who actually lift consitantly dont need to discuss it. They see effects and adjust accordingly. They dont come on websites and argue with people with over 2klb totals.
    Last edited by 4g64fiero; 08-03-2011 at 06:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by StormTheBeach View Post
    I think I am just going to start posting dick pictures on here until this thread gets deleted.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormTheBeach View Post
    You forgot to mention how bad it makes your piss taste... and there is still no such thing as overtraining.
    ...aaaaaand, we're done here.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial View Post
    ...aaaaaand, we're done here.
    I think we were quite honestly done a long, long time ago.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial View Post
    You're entitled to an opinion, certainly.... and I hope that's all this is. Because that was a bit of a throwaway post, with zero actual proof for a single thing you've stated.
    That felt harsh, especially since I put a bit of effort in proving a point.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bee_Brian View Post
    That felt harsh, especially since I put a bit of effort in proving a point.
    Nothing you said has been proven...it's all been an opinion.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark! View Post
    I think we were quite honestly done a long, long time ago.
    Agreed.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bee_Brian View Post
    That felt harsh, especially since I put a bit of effort in proving a point.
    I would consider re-evaluating your effort, then. Or perhaps re-evaluating your point, if that is the sort of backing you have for it.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
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  17. #42
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    I think I am just going to start posting dick pictures on here until this thread gets deleted. I feel that would be more constructive than 99% of the conversation that has actually taken place.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormTheBeach View Post
    I think I am just going to start posting dick pictures on here until this thread gets deleted.
    Sig'd.
    Quote Originally Posted by StormTheBeach View Post
    I think I am just going to start posting dick pictures on here until this thread gets deleted.
    18% BF down from 25%+ since April. Halfway to abs.

    Current 1200+ gym total. 214 lbs 5'10.5" 36.5" waist.

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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormTheBeach View Post
    I think I am just going to start posting dick pictures on here until this thread gets deleted. I feel that would be more constructive than 99% of the conversation that has actually taken place.
    Weren't you the guy who made a good point, but then missed out on a chance to deepen the discussion a bit?
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial View Post
    Weren't you the guy who made a good point, but then missed out on a chance to deepen the discussion a bit?

    Dick pictures are a good point. Wouldn't deepening the discussion entail actually posting said dick pictures?

    And who said I was a guy?

  21. #46
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    You assume I care.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  22. #47
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    Here is my thought for the no overtraining camp. They had better be the biggest, strongest motherfuckers on the planet... If there is no such thing as overtraining then progress should be continuous thus all of those believers had better be mutants.

    Oh, and I personally know the strongest people on the planet (some, not all of them ) and they all know that overtraining exists.


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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    Here is my thought for the no overtraining camp. They had better be the biggest, strongest motherfuckers on the planet... If there is no such thing as overtraining then progress should be continuous thus all of those believers had better be mutants.

    Oh, and I personally know the strongest people on the planet (some, not all of them ) and they all know that overtraining exists.
    It does exist.. It's just not as common as most people think.

    I'd say about 5% of pro powerlifters and olympic lifters experience it...
    Last edited by Bee_Brian; 08-04-2011 at 10:49 PM.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bee_Brian View Post
    It does exist.. It's just not as common as people think.

    I'd say about 5% of pro powerlifters and olympic lifters experience it...
    Lol, right, based upon your endless experience with what? Is that you in your avatar? You look about 12 and don't even look like you train. I think you need to spend more time training and learning and less time expressing you baseless opinions.


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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    Lol, right, based upon your endless experience with what? Is that you in your avatar? You look about 12 and don't even look like you train. I think you need to spend more time training and learning and less time expressing you baseless opinions.
    It's not that I'm wrong or anything. It's just that people have different definitions of "overtraining." Overtraining is a SEVERE MEDICAL CONDITION caused by chronic overreaching. The kind where your performance keeps going down while you still push yourself to the max.

    Until you actually reach that stage (which is rare because most people would deload before it even happens), you are not really "overtrained."

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