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Thread: Overtraining chest and shoulders?

  1. #1
    Bring it. DaCypher's Avatar
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    Overtraining chest and shoulders?

    Lately my gains in my db shoulder presses and db chest presses have slowed. Last week I actually did fewer reps than I usually do. So I'm assuming these two parts are being overtrained (no other body parts have been experiencing this, actually all other muscles have continued to progress). Currrently my split looks like this:

    Monday: Legs and Shoulders

    Wednesday: Chest and Triceps

    Friday: Back and Biceps

    I've been thinking of switching to a standard legs/push/pull split by putting shoulders on chest/tris day. Maybe I should switch to doing these lifts with a barbell instead of dumbells? My chest and shoulder workouts look like this:

    Chest:
    DB flat bench chest press
    DB incline chest press
    Dips
    DB flies

    Shoulders:
    DB shoulder presses
    DB side raises
    Bent-over db flies

    I'm assuming I'm eating enough and getting enough rest if the rest of my body is making progress. Do you think changing my split slightly is going to have any significant differences? What do you guys recommend?

  2. #2
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Give it a shot. I dunno if it'll work or not. I always liked push/pull/legs when I was doing HIT. I actually don't know what I think about 'overtraining' as it's defined by HIT guys, anymore. Actually I do know what I think: IMO it is a fundamentally flawed concept. I'm currently starting a routine where I'll essentially be training my arms and shoulders 6X a week. Maybe they'll just fall off. Guess we'll see.

    Boy, I sure am helpful, ain't I?
    Last edited by Blood&Iron; 06-03-2002 at 08:26 PM.

    We tend to think of Sisyphus as a tragic hero, condemned by the gods to shoulder his rock sweatily up the mountain, and again up the mountain, forever. The truth is that Sisyphus is in love with the rock. He cherishes every roughness and every ounce of it. He talks to it, sings to it. It has become the mysterious Other. He even dreams of it as he sleepwalks upward. Life is unimaginable without it, looming always above him like a huge gray moon. He doesn’t realize that at any moment he is permitted to step aside, let the rock hurtle to the bottom, and go home.

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  3. #3
    Banned kaleido's Avatar
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    I currently have a day for triceps and shoulders that is separate from chest. I never do it less than 3 days after I've done chest. It worked for the last 4 months and recently my gains have slowed/stopped. However, we're switching to a push/pull/legs routine pretty soon.

  4. #4
    Soca King
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    Maybe try taking a week off from training and just eat like crazy for your week off.You could probably benefit from some extra recovery time and after your week off you'll come back motivated and stronger

  5. #5
    Bring it. DaCypher's Avatar
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    Big Show-
    Not a bad idea, however, I just took a week off 3 or 4 weeks ago so I'm not sure that's the best idea.

    Blood&Iron-
    LOL, well, the overtraining concept is somewhat vague no matter what methodology you're following. However, I need to change something because my chest/shoulders are sucking.

    kaleido-
    Tell me how you like the push/pull/legs split.
    Last edited by Delphi; 06-03-2002 at 09:09 PM.
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  6. #6
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DaCypher

    Blood&Iron-
    LOL, well, the overtraining concept is somewhat vague no matter what methodology you're following. However, I need to change something because my chest/shoulders are sucking.
    You're right, but I don't think it's emphasized quite to the degree in other approaches as it is in HIT. Basically, Bryan Haycock(Mr. HST) has convinced me of the fact--along with a bit of reading on my own--that HIT confuses CNS recovery with actual muscular recovery. So, while the CNS does indeed take a 7-11 or more days to recover when you train to failure(and that's where the push/pull thing comes in since it'd give you that much time between hitting the problem areas) actually, the muscle 'recovers' in as little as 36 hours. After that you're more in a state of homeostasis or catabolism while you're waiting for your CNS to bounce back. So, it's sorta like 3 steps forward, two steps back. Or something(As simple as this is, I've probably botched something up...I'm tired.)

    Oh, and if it's any comfort your shoulders can't possibly be crappier than mine.
    Last edited by Blood&Iron; 06-03-2002 at 09:38 PM.

    We tend to think of Sisyphus as a tragic hero, condemned by the gods to shoulder his rock sweatily up the mountain, and again up the mountain, forever. The truth is that Sisyphus is in love with the rock. He cherishes every roughness and every ounce of it. He talks to it, sings to it. It has become the mysterious Other. He even dreams of it as he sleepwalks upward. Life is unimaginable without it, looming always above him like a huge gray moon. He doesn’t realize that at any moment he is permitted to step aside, let the rock hurtle to the bottom, and go home.

    Parables and Portraits, Stephen Mitchell

  7. #7
    . Delphi's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Blood&Iron
    Give it a shot. I dunno if it'll work or not. I always liked push/pull/legs when I was doing HIT. I actually don't know what I think about 'overtraining' as it's defined by HIT guys, anymore. Actually I do know what I think: IMO it is a fundamentally flawed concept.
    I'm agreeing with you on this. One of the fundamentals of HIT training is going to failure with each exercise, every workout. IMO this is why HITers can only workout every 5-8 days- they're taxing their peripheral nervous systems. I have quit lifting to concentric failure. I'm paying attention to my nutrition, and this is allowing my muscles to recuperate in time for me to do my push/pull split every other day. That's 4 days between push days, 4 days between pull days. I'm adding reps or weight on essentially every exercise, every workout. Plus it's allowing me to satisfy my addiction for lifting every other day. I'm loving it.


    DaCypher, if you're lifting to failure and you like your current routine, you might try laying off a few days and then resume your routine without going to failure.

    If you're wanting to go to a push/pull split anyway, I would suggest doing only one press (flat or incline) and then do OH presses. I've found that between bench presses and OH presses I don't need to do any direct shoulder work. Even if you don't do OH presses you're hitting your tris pretty hard doing two presses AND dips on the same day. Instead of doing bent-over DB flyes you could do and extra set of a rowing movement. That would hit your lateral/posterior delts, plus it would hit your traps and lats. Are you doing chinups and/or pulldowns on back day?

  8. #8
    Wannabebig Member
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    Why not switch your Wednesday and Friday routines, so that your tri's (and anterior delts) will have 3 days of rest (eg. from Friday evening to Monday evening) before being indirectly hit again on shoulder day (Monday). If all you're pressing movements are stagnating then your tri's are probably not fully recovered.

  9. #9
    Bring it. DaCypher's Avatar
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    Delphi-
    Yea, I would definetly be dropping some of the volume on push day if I added shoulders. I've also been thinking of dropping direct rear delt work as well. I do chins or pulldowns (pick one) on back day so they get hit then as well...

    magoo-
    Well, if my triceps weren't recovering in time I would like to not be working them twice a week, so just by spacing the shoulder/chest workouts apart more doesn't seem like it would help too much. Also, my chest always fails before my triceps do when doing db presses and considering that I use a significantly less amount of weight when doing db shoulder presses it doesn't seem like my triceps were getting worked too hard between these two exercises. My triceps have also been making steady progress, so I don't think they're the weak link.

    I think my shoulders were getting hit too much on chest day which could explain they're poor progress. However, I'm not too sure why my chest success would also stagnate (doesn't seem like the chest would get hit too much from db shoulder presses).

    I'm going to try this push/pull/legs split for a couple of weeks and see what happens. If I still have problems it might be time to change training philosophies (although training to failure still works for all my other muscles...).
    Obstacles are what you see when you take your mind off the goal.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Fudomyo's Avatar
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    I just switched to a single chest / shoulder / tri day. I like it much better. Currently I'm just a lot sorer following that workout. My weights are all different, but I'm gaining surely again in the military press.

    If I hadn't spent all weekend digging up rocks, I'd have a better answer.

  11. #11
    Bring it. DaCypher's Avatar
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    Ok, I did my push day today. And basically, it sucked. My major complaint was that I had to drastically decrease the weight I use for db shoulder presses which makes me question how effective it was. I'm assuming this decrease was necessary because my delts/tris were tired already from the chest exercises. So I'm wondering if I should just do one set of db chest presses and then do db shoulder presses after in hopes my delts/tris wouldn't be too tired so I could use some decent weight. Or maybe I should do shoulder presses first and then chest preses, but then that might hinder my chest press progress... What do you guys think?
    Obstacles are what you see when you take your mind off the goal.
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    Energy and persistence conquer all things.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Fudomyo's Avatar
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    Y, I start with Military Presses and DB press, since your triceps are much larger than your front deltoid. Your triceps can handle the abuse.

    Your weights will move around (less chest for me), but you should be making progress each week again after the first few weeks.

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