The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Opinions On The DOMS Theory..

    What do you guys think about Vince Basile's theory that DOMS is a serious indicator of muscle growth?

    I have stated my methods and it should be an easy matter to apply such information. You choose a program and train. Then the next two days see if there is any Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness. If not then that workout was almost a waste of energy. Try something else and keep trying until you obtain DOMS on the two or three days following that workout. Then on the 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th day repeat a variation of that workout and see if it results in DOMS again. If not then you won't keep growing. If you are successful then you will experience swelling and growth. Of course, you have to know plenty about nutrition and have to have ideal environments for muscles to grow. Sleep is important, too. Don't give me excuses about why you can't eat or sleep properly. If you fail to do the right things you can't grow. Not that you won't. Do you see the difference?
    This is a quote from a post made by Vince in his Maximum Hypertrophy thread. What do you guys think about this? What kind of a role does DOMS play?

    MS
    Last edited by MonStar; 05-20-2002 at 09:41 PM.

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  3. #2
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    This is really a pointless debate because empirically speaking, I've witnessed both growth and strength development with and without DOMS. So has most everyone I've ever spoken to involved in strength training.

    From the scientific/research aspect, it would follow that the most commonly accepted theory behind the cause of DOMS would also lead into hypertrophy-- if not necessarily an initial phase of growth, then certainly a sign that the muscle has been stressed significantly to grow.

    However, provided the essential factors of progressive overload and nutrition are present, one can easily make gains without any DOMS.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
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    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  4. #3
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL
    However, provided the essential factors of progressive overload and nutrition are present, one can easily make gains without any DOMS.
    Exactly thats pretty much what I am thinking. If DOMS is so important why dont bodybuilders simply drop their carb intakes and deplete muscle glycogen so they get even more sore than normal. While following NHE I have never been so sore. HST I am not sore at all.

    Anyway funny because a huge guy in my gym swears by a training system similar to the DOMS theory. He said he has to work his traps for an hour or more, or they wont get sore. Now let me tell you what - this guy has some MASSIVE traps. He works out probably 5-6 days per week and is completely enormous and shredded. Probably 5'6" and 200 lbs. with vascularity and definition like a pro bodybuilder. He takes creatine sometimes he said and HATES like wants to fight guys who use anabolics.

    MS

  5. #4
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Well, the basic ideal behind hypertrophy training is to increase the cross sectional area of the muscle fibers. This is done by two methods, either increasing the contractile apparatus (increasing the tension the fiber undergoes) or increasing the sarcoplasmic volume (the non-contractile "support" material, usually a result of aerobic-style training).

    The higher-volume and lactate-threshold style of training, usually involving either supersets, drop sets, high volume, or all of the above, will help with the latter. If they aren't stressing the muscle's force-producing elements in any meaningful way, they won't get bigger.

    Since the myofibrils are a very large portion of the muscle fiber, that's not a good thing to avoid.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  6. #5
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL
    This is done by two methods, either increasing the contractile apparatus (increasing the tension the fiber undergoes) or increasing the sarcoplasmic volume (the non-contractile "support" material, usually a result of aerobic-style training).
    Okay lemme get this straight. increasing the contractile apparatus is basically gradually increasing the load am I correct? As in, getting stronger, etc.? Is there any other way to inrease the contractile apparatus other than by increasing the tension, for example maybe changing up the reps? And maybe using higher reps like 12+ will result in sarcoplasmic hypertrophy? You said aerobic style training.

    Since the myofibrils are a very large portion of the muscle fiber, that's not a good thing to avoid.
    Okay I lost you here man sorry. What is not a good thing to avoid?

    MS
    Last edited by MonStar; 05-20-2002 at 09:55 PM.

  7. #6
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    The only way to increase the contractile elements (the myofibrils, sorry) is as you surmised, to increase the loading (you can also use higher acceleration, but that's tricky to master).

    Higher reps will work to increase the sarcoplasm. So will short rests, supersets, basically anything that doesn't allow the muscle to recover its full metabolic capacity after a set.

    I was referring to using the techniques that increase sarcoplasmic volume at the expense of those that increase myofibrillar volume.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  8. #7
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL
    The only way to increase the contractile elements (the myofibrils, sorry) is as you surmised, to increase the loading (you can also use higher acceleration, but that's tricky to master).

    Higher reps will work to increase the sarcoplasm. So will short rests, supersets, basically anything that doesn't allow the muscle to recover its full metabolic capacity after a set.
    Oh okay now that makes a lot of sense. So to stimulate muscle growth you want to increase the load, i.e. get stronger, and then increase the sarcoplasm by doing either supersets, or higher reps, etc. right?

    HST seems to do both then..

    MS

  9. #8
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL
    Since the myofibrils are a very large portion of the muscle fiber, that's not a good thing to avoid.
    Basically youre just saying that increasing your strength / load is more important than worrying about the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, correct?

    MS

  10. #9
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Both are important.

    Literature has shown a concept known as "irrational hypertrophy," whereby the myofibrils actually outstrip the muscle fiber's ability to support them metabolically, thus inhibiting further growth.

    On the whole, the heavy, progressive sets are the most critical, but alternating periods of both is important.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  11. #10
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Oh okay, thats very interesting. Crazy the way that science can back up muscle gains isnt it? Never really understood the science behind it - thanks man.

    MS

  12. #11
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    Monstar - the reason for the lack of soreness on HST has to do with the repeated bout effect, not your diet.

    The guy in your gym who is 5'6" and 200lbs lean is not drug free, or not anywhere near 200lbs, one of the two. It's just not gonna happen.

    As for DOMS, Vince claims it to be so elusive, I find it rather easy to achieve. I've put on a lot of size and strength since I started HST, and it's all been DOMS free with the exception of a few days of insanely heavy weights.

    here's a formula:

    DOMS = MASSIVE REST x MASSIVE WEIGHTS

    MP

  13. #12
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MarshallPenn
    Monstar - the reason for the lack of soreness on HST has to do with the repeated bout effect, not your diet.
    Yeah I agree with this. However, taking in postworkout carbs has also really aided in my recuperation, etc. I mean refilling or even partially refilling muscle glycogen stores postworkout is obviously going to help reduce muscle soreness. Sleep also plays a big role, when I get less than around 7 hours sleep, I am extremely sore.

    The guy in your gym who is 5'6" and 200lbs lean is not drug free, or not anywhere near 200lbs, one of the two. It's just not gonna happen.
    Yeah I think I overestimated his weight. Thinking back I believe he said that he was around 180 lbs. But obviously extreme definition is going to make anyone look larger. At least in my eyes.

    As for DOMS, Vince claims it to be so elusive, I find it rather easy to achieve. I've put on a lot of size and strength since I started HST, and it's all been DOMS free with the exception of a few days of insanely heavy weights.
    Agreed man. HST really hasnt given me any muscle soreness either. Rarely Ill get sore but its either from heavy weights. And/or coming too close to failure which happened a few times.

    here's a formula:

    DOMS = MASSIVE REST x MASSIVE WEIGHTS
    100% agreed. When I was hitting each musclegroup once a week and giving my body a full fledged 6 days to recover, I was so sore it was unbelievable. No matter how much sleep or postworkout carbs or glutamine or anything. Usually glutamine helps out a lot with my DOMS. But training each bodypart once a week just killed me.

    MS

  14. #13
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    what causes DOMS again?
    A little learning is a dangerous thing...

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  15. #14
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tryska
    what causes DOMS again?
    There is no definitive answer to that, as of yet.
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  16. #15
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    oh yeah that's right. i remember now.
    A little learning is a dangerous thing...

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  17. #16
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    I've had a bit of a weird experience with leg days and DOMS. When I lift heavy and hard then finish with some volume for legs, it hurts a bit the next day, the WORST is the SECOND day after. Some times I nearly cried like a little girl and hobbled around like I was 70 years old.

    Anyway, my $0.02?

    I've experienced growth both with and without DOMS.

    For what it's worth
    Cal

  18. #17
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    my doms is the same way callahan......day 2 is when it fully blooms.
    A little learning is a dangerous thing...

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  19. #18
    bone crusher
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    same with me

    I always seem to get sore no matter the frequency

  20. #19
    Wannabebig Member
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    Ditto, day 2 is the worst..and being a girl I can nearly cry or at least complain...about it
    "Don't call me babe"- Barb Wire

  21. #20
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    The most commonly accepted theory behind it is that its a result of the inflammatory response which is associated with any tissue injury, which makes sense.

    However, twinkie boy is still right.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  22. #21
    . Delphi's Avatar
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    So if Tryska or Melissa get DOMS, do they get to cry like little boys?

    There's an interesting idea floating around (can't remember where) that if you take NSAIDs (aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen) to lessen the DOMS you make also be blunting the growth that would normally occur as a result of the microtrauma to the muscle. Anybody got any more info on this?

  23. #22
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    It would depend on the mechanism that the NSAIDs use to block inflammation, which I'll admit I know nothing about.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  24. #23
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    Vince doesn't say you WON'T grow without experiencing DOMS. I think his position is that to MAXIMIZE hypertrophy you have to experience DOMS after each workout. You can still grow without experiencing DOMS if you've created some level of microtrauma. But a certain level of DOMS (say between 5 and 7 on a scale of 1 to 10, just for arguments sake) is the feedback to know that OPTIMAL microtrauma was induced.

    A lot of people, on experiencing DOMS after a workout, exclaim about what a GREAT workout it was. Is there some underlying grain truth there?

    I haven't decided on this matter yet myself. I guess ultimately I would have to give it a serious try for a cycle and record and compare results.

    As for HST, it's a pretty large leap of faith to go from some laboratory studies to the ultimate realworld protocol. On top of that, the vast majority of the studies out there are focused on STRENGTH increases - not hypertrophy. And all scientific studies are subject to INTERPRETATION. Just because HST is based on these various studies doesn't mean it's intrinsically superior to any other protocol out there. The real test is how well it works out here in the realworld as compared to all these other protocols. From all accounts it works pretty darn good for a lot of people! But obviously other protocols have worked pretty darn good for a lot of people too!

  25. #24
    . Delphi's Avatar
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    Where's all the people who have always stated here that DOMS is not a necessary condition for growth to occur?

  26. #25
    bone crusher
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL
    It would depend on the mechanism that the NSAIDs use to block inflammation, which I'll admit I know nothing about.
    Apparently these NSAID work by fooling with eicosanoids (which have been known to be related to inflammation)

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