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Thread: "X-Frame Training" Article In Latest Ironman Magazine.. Opinions?

  1. #26
    Wannabebig Member
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    I've built the only machine that involves the supination of the biceps as well as the typical flexing. I have a patent for that invention. So I am not sure what Bob means by inner and outer heads. Larry Scott believed you could elongate the biceps by doing curls where you put tension on the biceps in the stretched position. Larry did have probably the best shaped arms in bodybuilding. Did his methods work? I can't say.

    If you look at the arms of Arnold you find that one is peaked more than the other. Sergio had flatter arms no matter what he did.

    It would be my guess that training for shape is probably not what happens in muscles. Either fibres hypertrophy or they don't.

    I don't agree about the forearms making the upper arms look small. Great forearms like Sergio and Lee Priest make the complete arm.

    Squats don't target the quads equally on everyone. There are better exercises for that. Ditto bench presses for chest. Most of us would have had better chests had we never benched. Bob is right about the injuries from bench pressing. However, I believe the reason is because of the amount of weight used. Anything over 400 pounds is bound to cause permanent damage, eventually.

    About squats making your hips wider. I haven't seen that happen with the women bodybuilders. If this widening happens shouldn't all women bodybuilders have wider hips? I don't think that is what we see. Bob is right about most people doing the wrong exercises for bodybuilding. The trouble is what do you replace some of those exercises with?

    I have taken exercise physiology courses for my masters degree but my focus was the philosophy of science. I don't claim to be an expert in exercise physiology.

  2. #27
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    Originally posted by Vince Basile
    Are we going to settle bodybuilding debates online? Not a chance. If anyone wants to debate the advanced guys face to face good luck. Lots of people have good information. Are we all right about the details of our theories? Hardly. But most have approximations to the truth.

    Squats? They build great legs on some. I never got much of a result even doing 400 lbs X 10 deep reps.

    Deadlifts have no place in any bodybuilding routine. But go ahead and believe what you need to. Nobody really listens to anyone else online, anyway! Online everyone feels equal. How can that be possible? Most people are probably wrong about lots of things but have a bit of truth in a lot of things. This is the same as it has always been. All you need is 15 inch arms and you are an instant expert in bodybuilding.

    The truth is muscle hypertrophy is a complex process involving difficult to understand processes and physiology. Some believe they know what is going on. I have my doubts that anyone does. Maximum hypertrophy is still interesting because of the many competing theories to explain that phenomenon.

    Muscles are part of the human system and as such are probably controlled by the brain far more than we realise. Therefore it takes a good brain to build large muscles. Everyone can benefit from the theories of the best brains.

    Do champions agree about training. Heck, no. Not at all. And yet, all of them have something to offer bodybuilding. If we take all the successful routines, methods and strategies we might be able to come up with the complete theory of hypertrophy. What amuses me is that even if someone did this most bodybuilders wouldn't believe, recognize or accept it!!! They stick with what they believe and seldom embrace what others say. What a joy these online discussion boards are. Not quite a waste of time but very close.

    1.Heavy squats build great legs on most.
    2.Deadlifts have everyplace in bodybuilding, since you like to use Pro bodybuilder so much, tell Ronnie Coleman, Dorian Yates, and Lee Haney that deadlifts have no place in bodybuilding, they were known for their heavy deads, and the best and biggest backs.
    3.As far no listening to anyone online, I beg to differ, I listen to and have great respect for many people online, I have learned alot from people like Chris Mason,PowermanDl,Paul stagg, Belail, Maki and ect ect. I also have great respect for experts like Dr. Siff, tudor bumpor, and anybody from Westside. The difference between them and you is that they back their theories with results, evidence, science, and are willing to debate everything on their merits. Where you bring no evidence to back your theories, no science, and then refuse to debate because you claim that everyone is below your level.

  3. #28
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    Originally posted by Vince Basile
    I've built the only machine that involves the supination of the biceps as well as the typical flexing. I have a patent for that invention. So I am not sure what Bob means by inner and outer heads. Larry Scott believed you could elongate the biceps by doing curls where you put tension on the biceps in the stretched position. Larry did have probably the best shaped arms in bodybuilding. Did his methods work? I can't say.

    If you look at the arms of Arnold you find that one is peaked more than the other. Sergio had flatter arms no matter what he did.

    It would be my guess that training for shape is probably not what happens in muscles. Either fibres hypertrophy or they don't.

    I don't agree about the forearms making the upper arms look small. Great forearms like Sergio and Lee Priest make the complete arm.

    Squats don't target the quads equally on everyone. There are better exercises for that. Ditto bench presses for chest. Most of us would have had better chests had we never benched. Bob is right about the injuries from bench pressing. However, I believe the reason is because of the amount of weight used. Anything over 400 pounds is bound to cause permanent damage, eventually.

    About squats making your hips wider. I haven't seen that happen with the women bodybuilders. If this widening happens shouldn't all women bodybuilders have wider hips? I don't think that is what we see. Bob is right about most people doing the wrong exercises for bodybuilding. The trouble is what do you replace some of those exercises with?

    I have taken exercise physiology courses for my masters degree but my focus was the philosophy of science. I don't claim to be an expert in exercise physiology.

    Wrong again! Can you please explain to me why benching over 400lbs will cause permanant damage. I know people who have benched heavy for decades(over 400lbs), yet have never suffered permanant injury. Maybe if you benched right, elbows in, rather than elbows out, there would be less injuries.

    So all bodybuilder should do is flyes? Since you stated bench press, that means(dumbells,barbell, and machine).

  4. #29
    Senior Member smalls's Avatar
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    Vince, That post was very straightforward, and I mostly agree with it. I think we pretty much agree then that this article was very very flawed in its proposals to shape muscles with certain excercises, and that other excercises have no place for any bodybuilder. Certain lifts can be potentially dangerous, but that also has alot to do who is doing them and how. Thanks for the good post.

    edit: also I am certainly not an expert either, and I am really not trying to act like one.
    Last edited by smalls; 06-05-2002 at 05:54 PM.
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  5. #30
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Well, first, I don't think that Bob qualifies as a champion in the understood sense of the word. It took him over 10 years (I believe) to finally get his pro card. B&I has a point about his physique, although he does have a good back, and I find his physique to be pretty good overall. I find his thoughts to be short-sighted, and erroneous. Squats will build the glutes, but the glutes are a muscle group which should be developed, no? As to barbell curls with a straight bar being bad, I think that is silly. A straight bar allows for full supination of the biceps, which places them in a stronger position and allows for a full contraction. Lee Haney performed squats, and his waist was not blocky. Sergio Oliva performed them, and his waist was not blocky. Squats will only cause a blocky midsection in those with a propensity for it, and they will get that way with just about any resistance training.

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