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Thread: "X-Frame Training" Article In Latest Ironman Magazine.. Opinions?

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    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    "X-Frame Training" Article In Latest Ironman Magazine.. Opinions?

    I am wondering what you guys think about the latest Ironman magazine. I have the article and I am going to take some quotes from it. Ironman questioned Bob Cicherillo. I am not familiar with his credentials, but in the beginning of the article it really doesnt mention much. I dont know what issue but it has Tito Ramone and some girl on the cover. Anyway here are some interesting quotes. I am curious what you guys think of his opinion.

    • Bob Chicherillo's X-Frame Training... Or Why Benches Blow, Squats Suck, & Behind-neck Presses Are Behind The Times

      Ironman Magazine: The way that a person trains determines what type of physique he or she builds?
      Bob Cicherillo: Well, theres no question that genetics play a key role, but I also believe strongly that you have to decide early in your training whether you want to be a powerlifter, weightlifter, or bodybuilder. If you decide to be a bodybuilder, then you must train like one. You must also decide whether you want classic lines and shape or a Herculean physique and then train accordingly.

      Ironman Magazine: In terms of creating a classic physique, you avoid certain exercises, dont you?
      Bob Cicherillo:
      For starters, if you want classic lines, avoid heavy squats. They build a big ass and w-i-d-e hips. They also build a thick waist. Just look at all the guys in the past who had thick muscle development, thick waists and wide hips; they were all heavy squatters. They had great development, and I dont mean any disrespect. It's just not the look I want. The guys who had shapely, classic lines either squatted light for high reps or not at all.

      Ironman Magazine: So you squat light?
      Bob Chicherillo:
      When I was younger, yes, but now I never squat. Squats suck, I prefer leg extensions, 45 degree angled leg presses and hack squats.

      Ironman Magazine: What else leads to a classic shapely physique?
      Bob Chicherillo:
      ... Overdeveloped traps and front delts give you a blocky, narrow-shouldered look. Overdeveloped waist, hips, and butt take away from your taper. Overdeveloped forearms distract from your upper arms, and overdeveloped inner quads detract from thigh sweep and give the legs a blocky appearance.

      Ironman Magazine: Is that where you think bodybuilder goes wrong?
      Bob Chicherillo:
      Its really tempting to go all out on the things that youre really good at. If youre strong on squats, youre going to want to keep pushing the limits and keep it up. Thats where it takes discipline and you have to see what you want to create and stay focused, developing the areas of your physique that I just mentioned and use self-control to avoid building a blocky appearance.

      Ironman Magazine: A lot of bodybuilders are afraid to stray from the proven exercises, thinking that their bodies will dissapear like dust in the wind if they stop doing some of the basics. What gave you the confidence to apply your theories?
      Bob Chicherillo:
      I think many of the old masters had much of it wrong. Dont misunderstand me - I have all respect in the world for those who paved the way for the rest of us, but I think they taught many exercises that not only can ruin the lines of your physique but that are downright dangerous as well and can cause all kinds of injuries, possibly ending your training alltogether.

      Ironman Magazine: We already talked about the squat. What other exercises do you avoid and why?
      Bob Chicherillo:
      The bench press. Benches blow! They overdevelop the front delts and midpecs, and they destroy rotator cuffs. Think about it: anytime you hear about someone tearing his pec, what was he doing? Inclines? Flyes? No! Almost without exception flat-bench presses are responsible for pec tears.

      Ironman Magazine: Any others?
      Bob Chicherillo:
      Any exercise done with behind the neck palms-forward grip, including BTN presses, BTN pulldowns, and BTN chins. Theres no reason to do them with that kind of grip. Front presses on the Smith-machine are great for overall shoulder development, and they dont destroy the rotator cuff the way behind-neck-presses do. Pulldowns or chins are great for back. You can do BTN pulldowns with a parallel grip bar, or as its sometimes called, a Hollywood bar.

      Ironman Magazine: Okay keep going, I want them all.
      Bob Chicherillo:
      Deadlifts! Again, they build a big ass, wide hips, and a wide waist with thick, overdeveloped obliques. They also cause lower-back injuries. Heres the rest of my list of exercises to avoid.
      Back: Heavy bentover BB rows - too much lower back and biceps strain. I prefer machine rows with my chest supported against a pad or bench.
      Biceps: Straight-bar curls - too much strain on the coraco-brachialis muscles and rotator cuffs. The bar is an unnatural position in your hands. Let you arms hang to your sides. Do your palms naturally face forward or inward? Inward right? Thats the natural position, the one youre in when you do EZ-curl curls or DB curls.
      Triceps: OH DB or BB triceps presses (with elbows in). Who made up that elbows in rule anyway? Stupid, stupid, stupid because it strains the shoulders and kills the elbows. Ask anyone about the right way to do OH triceps presses, and hell give you this thing about elbows in. Then ask why. Youll get a black stare. Then ask who originally said they should be done that way. Now the person looks at you like youre an alien. Everyone just plays follow the leader and never questions it. Instead of keeping your shoulders in on that movement, let your elbows come out. Trust me, youll feel your triceps strongly, and there will be no strain on your shoulders, rotator cuffs, or elbows. I do the exercise on the Smith-machine so I can get myself into the position without killing myself.
      Hamstrings: Flat-back leg curls - goodbye lower back.

      ... For example, to work outer biceps for peak, use an in, or close EZ-curl grip. To work inner biceps for size and full development, work out, or with a wide grip. To work outer quads, for sweep, use an in or close foot stance. But still point your toes out. For inner quads use a wide stance. And contrary to popular opinion, I think wide-grip pulldowns and chins build the inner back and close-grip pulldowns and chins build a wide back.

      Ironman Magazine: Okay so what are Chicherillo's magic movements for ultimate shape?
      Bob Chicherillo:
      I like that. Lets trademark it! Okay here goes:
      Chest: Smith-machine incline presses, incline DB presses, incline flyes, cable crossovers. Occasionally I do machine bench presses and Hammer strength declines.
      Back: Wide-grip pulldowns to the front, machine rows with chest support, close-grip pulldowns with a parallel grip, cable rows.
      Shoulders: Smith-machine front presses - go no lower than the nose - one arm laterals, bentover laterals, rear-delt machine.
      Biceps: Alt. DB curls, machine curls, EZ-curl curls, one arm concentration curls.
      Triceps: V-bar pushdowns, Smith reverse-grip benching, machine pressouts, machine dips, Smith OH triceps presses.
      Forearms: Wrist curls, reverse wrist curls, reverse curls - all down for at least 12 to 15 reps.
      Quads: Leg ext., 45 degree leg presses, hack squats.
      Hamstrings: Various leg curls, Smith reverse lunges.
      Calves: Standing calf machine, donkey calf machine, seated calf machine, all for at least 12 to 15 reps.
      Abs: Crunches and reverse crunches.
      Traps: DB shrugs, light for 12 to 15 reps.

      Ironman Magazine: How many sets do you do per bodypart?
      Bob Chicherillo:
      No more than 20, but generally about 8 to 12.

      Ironman Magazine: Do you train to failure?
      Bob Chicherillo:
      Almost never. I did that in the past, but I noticed that when I eased up a bit and held a rep or two back, I made better progress.

    Some crazy a*s sh!t huh!? What do you think about Bob's opinion? Seems like some crazy stuff no deads, squats, or bench. Theyre the BB classics.

    Opinions?

    MS

  2. #2
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Re: "X-Frame Training" Article In Latest Ironman Magazine.. Opinions?

    Originally posted by MonStar
    Ironman Magazine: So you squat light?
    Bob Chicherillo:
    When I was younger, yes, but now I never squat. Squats suck, I prefer leg extensions, 45 degree angled leg presses and hack squats.

    Ironman Magazine: Okay keep going, I want them all.
    Bob Chicherillo:
    Deadlifts! Again, they build a big ass, wide hips, and a wide waist with thick, overdeveloped obliques. They also cause lower-back injuries. Heres the rest of my list of exercises to avoid.
    Back: Heavy bentover BB rows - too much lower back and biceps strain. I prefer machine rows with my chest supported against a pad or bench.
    Hamstrings: Flat-back leg curls - goodbye lower back.

    ... For example, to work outer biceps for peak, use an in, or close EZ-curl grip. To work inner biceps for size and full development, work out, or with a wide grip. To work outer quads, for sweep, use an in or close foot stance. But still point your toes out. For inner quads use a wide stance. And contrary to popular opinion, I think wide-grip pulldowns and chins build the inner back and close-grip pulldowns and chins build a wide back.

    Opinions?

    [/B]
    Ladies and gentlemen, I give you my nominee for Idiot of the Year!!
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

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    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

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    Gettin Lean Goin_Big's Avatar
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    90% bs, 10% I like.

    His thoughts on triceps presses I agree with, as whoever came up with keeping elbows in is a moron. It works so much better if they're flared out slightly.

    Also the lying leg curl thing, it does kill yer back.

    The heavy bent over rows thing is true as well.

    Now as for his classic lines stuff, yah okay, and I'll sell you my magic water that makes you huge for 10,000 dollars
    Beachbody coaching lets you turn your hobby into a career - Beachbody

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    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Goin_Big
    90% bs, 10% I like.

    His thoughts on triceps presses I agree with, as whoever came up with keeping elbows in is a moron. It works so much better if they're flared out slightly.

    Also the lying leg curl thing, it does kill yer back.

    The heavy bent over rows thing is true as well.

    Now as for his classic lines stuff, yah okay, and I'll sell you my magic water that makes you huge for 10,000 dollars
    Agreed with what you said about the triceps presses.

    Originally posted by MonStar
    Triceps: OH DB or BB triceps presses (with elbows in). Who made up that elbows in rule anyway? Stupid, stupid, stupid because it strains the shoulders and kills the elbows. Ask anyone about the right way to do OH triceps presses, and hell give you this thing about elbows in. Then ask why. Youll get a black stare. Then ask who originally said they should be done that way. Now the person looks at you like youre an alien. Everyone just plays follow the leader and never questions it. Instead of keeping your shoulders in on that movement, let your elbows come out. Trust me, youll feel your triceps strongly, and there will be no strain on your shoulders, rotator cuffs, or elbows. I do the exercise on the Smith-machine so I can get myself into the position without killing myself.
    This is one part of what Bob Chicherillo says that I agree with. Just that a lot of bodybuilding is follow the leader.

    MS
    Last edited by MonStar; 06-04-2002 at 10:12 PM.

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    Gettin Lean Goin_Big's Avatar
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    Eating protein shrinks your penis.

    I need to get that published in my new book on weight training.
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    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL


    Ladies and gentlemen, I give you my nominee for Idiot of the Year!!
    Haha what he said about hitting inner and outer biceps etc. I gotta agree man.

    I have always wondered though about squats and deads thickening your waistline..

    MS

  7. #7
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Laughable.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

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    bone crusher
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    i dont think much of this man's opinions

    although i do agree about some exercises such as the btn motions being unnatural and leading to injury

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    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    I enjoy BTN presses a great deal. I feel like theyre a classic delt builder that should be practiced - safely - by the majority of bodybuilders. That are shoulder problem free that is.

    MS

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    I disagree with his comments on squats and deadlifts. Although these exercises focus on quads and lower back respectively, they recruit stabilizer muscles throughout the body. So as your quads and lower back grow, the rest of your body is also growing. I don't think you will noticeably lose your taper unless you stop working upper back.

  11. #11
    Gettin Lean Goin_Big's Avatar
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    SQUATS MADE ME LOSE MY TAPER, THEY'RE EVIL!!!!

    nm, I'm fat.
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    eating out millertime's Avatar
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    Is it Bob Chicherillo or Bob Cicherillo??

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    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Bob Chicherillo.

    MS

  14. #14
    eating out millertime's Avatar
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    He is a big guy, he must be doing somthing right.

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    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    That's sound logic right there.



    *the preceding statement was complete and total sarcasm*
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

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    Budiak: I wish

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    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

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    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

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    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    I don't care one way or another about his comments. But I laughed my ass off at the irony of this article. Ciccerillo, IMO, has one of the least appealing physiques I've ever seen. He looks terrible. I mean he's big, but his about as un-aesthetic as one can get. Turnip thighs. Crappy bis. He sorta looks like Frankenstein's monster. Just a bunch of random pieces put together willy-nilly.

    We tend to think of Sisyphus as a tragic hero, condemned by the gods to shoulder his rock sweatily up the mountain, and again up the mountain, forever. The truth is that Sisyphus is in love with the rock. He cherishes every roughness and every ounce of it. He talks to it, sings to it. It has become the mysterious Other. He even dreams of it as he sleepwalks upward. Life is unimaginable without it, looming always above him like a huge gray moon. He doesn’t realize that at any moment he is permitted to step aside, let the rock hurtle to the bottom, and go home.

    Parables and Portraits, Stephen Mitchell

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    I especially agree with him on one thing ... concentration curls are one of those "magic movements for ultimate shape."

    I do agree with him on the BTN presses ... nothing but trouble.

  18. #18
    Genetic Experiment GeneticallyGifted's Avatar
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    As some of you guys have said he has made some good points, few and not many but few. His aim to gain a classic bb physique, by not using classic bb movements. I don't see it being possible. I do remember most of the Mr. Olympia's doing all of these movements that he is bashing, even the current one as of now Does Deads, and favorite movement is BB Rows. From the beginning of bodybuilding time these movements or exercise have always been there and incorparated with being a classic bodybuilder.

    What or who would be classic bodybuilder in the sense of the word to him?

    Hmmmmm...I wonder
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    Wannabebig Member
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    All advanced bodybuilders will speak the same language. I can read what Bob said and comprehend what he is saying and why.

    I agree that lots of exercises are done because they have always been done. Bench presses, deadlifts and many triceps exercises are dangerous and not as beneficial as many think.

    Accept or reject if you must. When we stop listening to those who are experienced we are making a mistake. That isn't to say that champions can't be mistaken. Imagine yourself standing in front of any of these big guys arguing your points. Good luck.

    I will make a post soon about the curious beliefs that persist in bodybuilding.

  20. #20
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Paul Stagg
    Laughable.
    Not really, no.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

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    Originally posted by Paul Stagg
    Laughable.




    beyond laughable

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    Originally posted by Vince Basile
    All advanced bodybuilders will speak the same language. I can read what Bob said and comprehend what he is saying and why.

    I agree that lots of exercises are done because they have always been done. Bench presses, deadlifts and many triceps exercises are dangerous and not as beneficial as many think.

    Accept or reject if you must. When we stop listening to those who are experienced we are making a mistake. That isn't to say that champions can't be mistaken. Imagine yourself standing in front of any of these big guys arguing your points. Good luck.

    I will make a post soon about the curious beliefs that persist in bodybuilding.


  23. #23
    Senior Member smalls's Avatar
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    So Vince, you think you can shape your bi's using different excercises. And you think squats SUCK.

    I agree there is validity in almost anything if you look hard enough so some of what he said makes sense.(follow the leader excercises).
    But looking the article as a whole, it is, as Paul said, Laughable.

    Do you really think powrmandl, wouldnt refute these rediculous statements with this guy face to face. I do.
    Diet is key, the calorie is king

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  24. #24
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    Are we going to settle bodybuilding debates online? Not a chance. If anyone wants to debate the advanced guys face to face good luck. Lots of people have good information. Are we all right about the details of our theories? Hardly. But most have approximations to the truth.

    Squats? They build great legs on some. I never got much of a result even doing 400 lbs X 10 deep reps.

    Deadlifts have no place in any bodybuilding routine. But go ahead and believe what you need to. Nobody really listens to anyone else online, anyway! Online everyone feels equal. How can that be possible? Most people are probably wrong about lots of things but have a bit of truth in a lot of things. This is the same as it has always been. All you need is 15 inch arms and you are an instant expert in bodybuilding.

    The truth is muscle hypertrophy is a complex process involving difficult to understand processes and physiology. Some believe they know what is going on. I have my doubts that anyone does. Maximum hypertrophy is still interesting because of the many competing theories to explain that phenomenon.

    Muscles are part of the human system and as such are probably controlled by the brain far more than we realise. Therefore it takes a good brain to build large muscles. Everyone can benefit from the theories of the best brains.

    Do champions agree about training. Heck, no. Not at all. And yet, all of them have something to offer bodybuilding. If we take all the successful routines, methods and strategies we might be able to come up with the complete theory of hypertrophy. What amuses me is that even if someone did this most bodybuilders wouldn't believe, recognize or accept it!!! They stick with what they believe and seldom embrace what others say. What a joy these online discussion boards are. Not quite a waste of time but very close.

  25. #25
    Senior Member smalls's Avatar
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    Vince, your posts are abstract. I wasnt talking about optimal hypertrophy or even refuting ideas to get optimal hypertrophy. I was saying that targeting your inner and outer bicep, and saying squats suck, is laughable. That's great that what he does works for him, but to say things like this is just idiotic, regardless of how big he is. Your the one with the degree in physiology, what do you think about it. And try to be as specific as possible.
    Diet is key, the calorie is king

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    "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
    Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination
    alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
    Calvin Coolidge (1872-1933)
    30th U.S. President

    "If you want to look abnormal you have to eat abnormal,lol."--ST

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