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Thread: The bodybuilding paradigm.

  1. #1
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    The bodybuilding paradigm.

    Humans do things and learn from their experiences. Eventually, common information is passed on and everyone comes to believe certain things about the world, ideas, and people. Since humans and culture evolve over millions of years some of the core ideas become the accepted reality for everyone. Those accepted beliefs, values and ideas become the paradigm beliefs of society.

    We can apply this process to subcultures. Bodybuilding is one such subculture. We have our own language, beliefs and practices. Everyone learns about such things by associating in gyms and training. There are specialised magazines and online journals are a recent addition to the spread of information.

    Are there common beliefs that everyone in bodybuilding possess? This is not doubted. It becomes very difficult to implement any innovation into the bodybuilding paradigm that is widely believed. Arthur Jones come up with new ideas, methods and equipment about 30 years ago. We used to read his long advertisments in Ironman because they were so interesting. Here was someone arguing that the then current bodybuilding practices were wrong and inefficient. He promised he could build champions in 1/2 to 1/3 of the time it then took. Instead of taking over 10 years to become a champion it was possible to do so in a mere 3 or 4 years of training. Is this what we find today? No, champions still take a long time to build themselves up. Is that because few embraced the teachings of Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer? This is something we will never know.

    The vast majority of bodybuilders do more things the same than they do differently. Most do lots of sets with relatively heavy weights. The successful methods and routines get passed down to the ingroups and those become the approved methods to train. Chemical substances have also been used and the knowledge of their use gets passed on from group to group of bodybuilders. Most of the others in any gym will not have access to such information. Even attending seminars by the champions often finds such information lacking.

    What are the fundamental beliefs that are *true* in bodybuilding? I can list them but there is no need to do so because most of us know exactly what these beliefs are. For example, how about the belief that the only way to build maximum hypertrophy is through drug use. And heavy drug use at that. I would bet that 99.999% of bodybuilders believe you need drugs to win the Mr Olympia contest. I do not believe drugs are necessary to do so! The fact that no one has yet won the Mr Olympia drug free is not proof that it is not possible. Until we have research that answers this question we should keep an open mind. Now, since 99.999% of you believe I must be nuts to make such a statement then I cannot possibly be right. How would we know who is right? Well, most would insist the answer is so obvious that only a fool would disagree.

    If someone came along and said they had a method that would lead to maximum hypertrophy without drug use would we believe him? Not a chance. Why? Well, everyone already believes it is not going to happen. It, to them, is literally not possible.

    I want to mention another thing that was overlooked by the vast majority of bodybuilders, theorists, and reseachers. This business of DOMS. Delayed onset muscle soreness. Everyone knows about DOMS. It occurs when you first lift weights. It happens when you do anything extreme or different in activities or training. The pain can last for up to 5 days or more but always goes away. DOMS was seen as an unpleasant concomitant of novelty in exercise programs. It was never seen as anything desirable.

    I stumbled on this idea approximately 40 years after I first began training in a neighbour's basement gym. Everyone was oblivious to that pain. It occurred to me one day while trying to make my triceps grow. I couldn't get them to grow no matter what I did. Then I tried an exercise that caused DOMS the next day. Voila! The missing link. Finally I found the key to building large muscles fast. If you could trigger DOMS every workout with certain intense, heavy workouts, you could grow uninterrupted. I was overcome with excitement and started keeping the arms and calves sore and managed, at 56, to put a full inch on them both in a mere month of training. Those sizes were the biggest I had ever built either muscle.

    I wrote an article for Ironman magazine and it is still on their online page in the additional training section of information.

    Few people accept that DOMS are either necessary or sufficient to indicate that the muscle is growing. They cite arguments and studies that prove DOMS are not necessary. How, then, did I grow that fast in such a short time? No one could say. Do others wonder if this system will work for them? If people stop growing because they seldom experience DOMS in their muscles then we finally have an explanation for the millions of bodybuilders on plateaus. No one else has a clue why so many are NOT growing. Isn't that add with so many experts out there?

    The reason my theory will not be accepted is because it goes against the accepted theories and paradigms in exercise science and bodybuilding. No one believes any such thing so it obviously cannot possibly be true. Therefore everyone dispatches such absurd theories to the garbage bin.

    That is why I state that posting new theories on discussion boards is not going to penetrate the beliefs of those here. The occasional person might see merit in what I have to say, but the majority will resist and reject what doesn't agree with what they believe. Most people will take their false beliefs to their graves with them instead of changing them while they are alive. I suppose bodybuilding theories are not a matter of life and death. But I would bet that the numbers who abandon bodybuilding because they stop growing are growing daily. Millions of people stop growing. Millions more will do the same. There is no need for anyone to stop growing. But, dear readers, how can they avoid that if they continue with their current practices and methods? It is inevitable that the vast majority of people are either on a plateau or soon will be. Then what? Surf the net and try every system available? That is one strategy.

    There are so many factors that conspire to defeat most of us. I look back on my career and lament at the lack of an adequate theory of hypertrophy. There wasn't any complete theory of hypertrophy. Lift heavy weights and eat a lot and you should grow. That was about all anyone knew. Oh, and take anabolic steroids if you are crazy.

    Mike Mentzer was an intelligent man. He was one of the few thinkers in bodybuilding. He always claimed there was one true theory that explained reality. In bodybuilding there must be one true theory that explain muscle growth. Unfortunately the scientists are not very interested in maximum human hypertrophy. If they were we would already know how to build maximum size. Some people do know because they have done exactly that. I doubt if anyone has done it drug free. We are doubtful that drug-free bodybuilders can duplicate the training protocols of the biggest men and get the same results. So far no one has been able to do so. Any who approach maximum hypertrophy are accused of cheating and thus we retain the theory that drug use is necessary to build maximum size.

    If someone comes along with a new theory it is bound to be rejected, dismissed and ridiculed. So, if we find that treatment happening just maybe that person has something new to offer? Arthur Jones tells of the tribulations he has received at the hands of scientists and others who are scepical of his theories. Arthur is quick to dismiss the scientists as dolts who know nothing original at all. I take a more cautious path and suggest that attitudes might prevent scientists of conducting the kinds of studies that would benefit bodybuilders.

    Let me demonstrate what I mean by the lack of scientific information to help us bodybuilders. At the moment the International Olympic Committee has a list of banned substances. They list anabolic steroids and other substances. When we comb the scientific literature the evidence is hard to find that anabolic steroids even work. However, let us assume that the anecdotal reports are correct and steroids do work. How come the doctors and sports organizations do not know how to build maximum strength or size? Isn't that odd in this 21st century? How come we don't know something as simple as how to build maximum size in our muscles. Forget that not everyone wants to do that. Could they find out if they wanted to? No, it is not known.

    People lobby governments to put in jail people pushing steroids. Where are the people demanding that we have more research done on making muscles grow? Quite absurd that there isn't any demand for such knowledge. What we find is that there exists a paradigm about bodybuilders to dismiss that pastime as anything useful for humans. Bodybuilding has almost always been seen as a negative pursuit. Universities seldom endore such sports. It is still not an Olympic sport. Bodybuilding is kept as a subculture for all sorts of reasons that keep it a sport that few engage in.

    For all of that what do we find in the hypertrophy research? Muscles are complex, difficult to comprehend things. It is not as simple as many imagined. Eventually we will know most of the answers but I think it will take years and perhaps decades to happen. Bryan Haycock will be the pioneer who will start the process of making bodybuilding a science. It will happen and the sooner the better. Our sport, and these discussion boards are really indicative of a state of chaos that exists. Everywhere we find disagreement and seldom any coming together of minds. When I read what Arthur and Bryan and Mike are saying I understand the language they are using. They are all on the right path to understanding. Many others are standing outside the granary criticizing the quality and price but do not have the means to purchase the product!

    I will conclude this post with another paradigm breaking announcement. There is no such thing as junk food. Something cannot be both a food and junk. It is a contradiction. What they should be saying is that there are junk diets. Therefore, what you eat at fast food outlets is not junk food. I doubt there are many people who understand this truth. If you ate only fries then you would get ill. However, one could live quite well on the fare offered in fast food outlets.

  2. #2
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Re: The bodybuilding paradigm.

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Vince Basile
    [B]
    What are the fundamental beliefs that are *true* in bodybuilding? I can list them but there is no need to do so because most of us know exactly what these beliefs are. For example, how about the belief that the only way to build maximum hypertrophy is through drug use. And heavy drug use at that. I would bet that 99.999% of bodybuilders believe you need drugs to win the Mr Olympia contest. I do not believe drugs are necessary to do so! The fact that no one has yet won the Mr Olympia drug free is not proof that it is not possible. Until we have research that answers this question we should keep an open mind. Now, since 99.999% of you believe I must be nuts to make such a statement then I cannot possibly be right. How would we know who is right? Well, most would insist the answer is so obvious that only a fool would disagree.


    *** Interesting, I've made some discoveries about my own body during my diet. Hypertrophy is a definitely a complex subject that should be continually discussed and debated.



    I stumbled on this idea approximately 40 years after I first began training in a neighbour's basement gym. Everyone was oblivious to that pain. It occurred to me one day while trying to make my triceps grow. I couldn't get them to grow no matter what I did. Then I tried an exercise that caused DOMS the next day. Voila! The missing link. Finally I found the key to building large muscles fast. If you could trigger DOMS every workout with certain intense, heavy workouts, you could grow uninterrupted. I was overcome with excitement and started keeping the arms and calves sore and managed, at 56, to put a full inch on them both in a mere month of training. Those sizes were the biggest I had ever built either muscle.

    *** I am actually in the process of keeping my chest sore for a couple months. It seems that on day 5 my soreness drops off abruptly. Even if I lift heavier on my second chest session. I haven't increased my volume of sets to match my first chest work out in the week. This may help in keeping that deep soreness in my chest. I've also noticed stretch marks in the last two weeks which is interesting as well.


    I will conclude this post with another paradigm breaking announcement. There is no such thing as junk food. Something cannot be both a food and junk. It is a contradiction. What they should be saying is that there are junk diets. Therefore, what you eat at fast food outlets is not junk food. I doubt there are many people who understand this truth. If you ate only fries then you would get ill. However, one could live quite well on the fare offered in fast food outlets.

    *** Vince if I might point out a slight contradiction on your part here.
    Since there is no such thing as "junk food," only "junk diets.' And since fast food outlets cater to our need to feed off this undeniable longing for this type of food. Would it not make sense to lable people who eat at these places as consuming a junk diet? Yet you claim that one could fare quite well consuming a "junk diet."
    Last edited by Maki Riddington; 06-15-2002 at 09:30 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Did somebody say fast food? I agree completely with your thoughts on that. One can eat extensively at fast food outlets and have a reasonable diet. I'm in my car at least 1.5 hours every day. I stop at McDonald's in the morning and get an Egg McMuffin sandwich most days. A muffin, an egg, some cheese, a piece of ham. I throw out the hash browns because I don't want Tryska to hunt me down and beat me. On the way back to town I go to either Whataburger or Burger King and get a double-meat hamburger or occasionally a grilled chicken sandwich. No cheese, maybe 8 or 10 french fries. Sure, these meals have 40-50% fat, but I control my weight and I've come to realize that I need the energy with what I do for a living and for working out. I've gained about 8 pounds the last few months, but I've gained strength and size too, so I don't think I'm gaining too much fat if any. I cut calories other ways to make up for the fast food. Skim milk, no sweets most days, diet drinks (which I have cut down on drastically recently), artificial sweetener instead of sugar in my iced tea. It would be extremely difficult to bring my food with me, given my weird hours and schedule. I feel I'm doing quite well under the circumstances. BTW, my lipid profile is probably better than 3/4 of y'all- good choice of parents on my part.

  4. #4
    . Delphi's Avatar
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    Now on to this soreness thing. Some people in the past have stated their beliefs that one's exercise selection should be changed continuously in order to "keep the muscles guessing." Most people would agree that muscles get more sore when the exercises are changed. These people feel that the exercise changes prevents stagnation and promotes more continuous growth than sticking with the same exercises for months at a time. Let's assume that this exercise change does lead to more growth in strength and/or hypertrophy. And let's assume that soreness develops as a result of this exercise change. Here's the questions that come to my mind:

    Is it the exercise change or the soreness that results in gains?

    Can you change the exercises all the time, not get sore, and make maximum gains?

    Can you stick with same exercises, get sore, and make maximum gains?

    If the former, would you gain more if you also found a way to get sore?

    If the latter, would you gain more if you also changed your exercises?

  5. #5
    Gettin Lean Goin_Big's Avatar
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    I agree on the food thing as well, as I've been losing weight just by eating less and watching my calorie intake. Food is food.

    As for DOMS, I'll tell ya what, I don't know if I can gain muscle while losing fat or not, but I'm gonna try to get maximum DOMS on my arms by switching exercises up every workout.

    I'll see how it goes, besides I love the soreness.

    Of course, I do have to stick with Chris's routine for awhile, but maybe I could swtich up my supersets every week.....hmmm
    Last edited by Goin_Big; 06-15-2002 at 10:15 PM.
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    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Ok, well just to follow up on the DOMS thing--

    Facts:

    1) The prevailing theory of DOMS is that cellular trauma occurs which the body must respond to.

    2) If DOMS is caused by a muscular tension sufficient to cause growth, then growth will occur.

    Now, assuming both 1 and 2 are present in a situtaion, then DOMS will be an indicator of growth. It doesn't have to be there, no, but if both these conditions are correct, then it will indicate growth.

    Bear with me for another leap-- since the body seems to adapt to DOMS rather quickly in most cases, it would follow that as long as 2 is being met, then growth is occuring. The workout can be varied as much as needed to keep point 1 in effect, while providing the necessary stimulus via point 2.

    In essence, its not so much the DOMS that should be trained for, but the effect of continually varied, yet appropriate, stimulus for growth.
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  7. #7
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    Matt, in a summary: progressive overload

    Hey Vince, what do you think needs to be done to improve the subculture of bodybuilding and change peoples views?
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    Senior Member InferiorDesign's Avatar
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    I dont get DOMS anymore, and i train harder and longer every time i go in. i use to get sore like mad, no the day after i work out, itll be sore in the morning if i flex hard

  9. #9
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    Vince, the reason most people will not accept your theories is not only the prevailing societal beliefs about bodybuilding practices, it is also due to the fact that while your theory has some correct ideas, it is at its core incorrect. As I pointed out to you in another post, one which you never responded to, I can name bodybuidlers who have achieved incredible hypertrophy while using extremely strict exercise form, the kind of form which limits DOMS. If they have achieved this degree of growth training in a fashion which minimizes DOMS, one can only conclude that DOMS is not a requisite of maximum growth. If you would like scientific data to backup my statement, we need look no further than Ellington Darden, Ph.D., a protege and confidant of Arthur Jones. Mr. Darden tracked the results of 6 individuals in preparation for the writing of his book, Big Arms in Six Weeks . Each trainee performed his repetitions using "slow, smooth" form. They did 3 weekly workouts consisting of 14 total sets per workout. The average gain in their arms was 5/8", or a little over 1/2" in only 6 weeks. So, these trainees used very strict form, the kind that limits DOMS, performed relatively low volume, and made rather nice progress in the hypertrophy department.

    Now, as to the business of how did you grow so fast. First, I suppose we will have to accept your word on that. If we do so, then I would note to you that no one has stated, to my knowledge, that DOMS will hinder growth, only that it is not necessary for maximal growth. Big difference.

    As to Arthur Jones, he does not dismiss science, he embraces it, but he dismisses many scientists due to the fact that they are often biased based upon peer pressure, and the fact that they too have to eat. Yes, someone has to pay our friends the scientists, and money has a funny way of distorting things, doesn't it?

    As to steroids being necessary to win the Olympia (or some other drug which may come along), I think it foolish to believe otherwise. Foolish, and prideful. Doing so would be to dismiss the bodybuidlers of the 40s and 50s as morons. It is a fatal flaw of most people to consider that their generation somehow "has it" over previous generations. I know, we love to think that training has advanced so much over the years. Look at all of the "new" routines and ideas of today, right? Wrong! Unfortunately, very few (to none) of the "new" ideas of today are truly new. Things that we think are new are just rehashed old ideas. Any of the catch phrase training programs of today can be traced back 30, 40, or 50+ years. So, if we assume, and I do , that the top trainees of the 40s and 50s knew what they were doing, then we must look to the top examples of physiques back then and compare them to the top Olympia contenders of today. Well, they don't come anywhere near in size and definition, not even close. That leaves me to conclude that the difference is arrtibutable to steroids and other drugs, not training styles, or certainly not genetics.

    One last thing, be more concise in your posts, you needn't write a Russian novel every time. Excess words will not convince your readers, solid, logical, and proven facts will.

  10. #10
    Gettin Lean Goin_Big's Avatar
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    The thing that makes Vince's post interesting to me is the fact that I've always seemed to make my best gains when I was sore after every workout. When I was making my best gains in squats and going up 5 lbs a week I was sore for sometimes up to 7 days after my last squat workout.

    I'm starting to think the more often your body has to respond to the soreness the more it tries to make you bigger and stronger as to avoid the soreness later. Maybe it's the bodies way of adapting.......but who knows.
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  11. #11
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    Don't you epople notice that Vince never really responds to you after his initial post.

    I wouldn't waste my time tearing up his arguements over and over.

  12. #12
    Simplistic
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    I was just thinking the same thing.

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    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Allen
    Don't you epople notice that Vince never really responds to you after his initial post.

    I wouldn't waste my time tearing up his arguements over and over.
    No sh*t.

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    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Mentzer was not particularly bright, and he was terrible at making a logical argument.

    Many have grown without DOMS. People dont accept your therory becasue there is emprical evidence to the contrary.
    Squats work better than supplements.
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  15. #15
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    well, B&I i thought I'd throw that in since you people seem to be writing long essays to someone who isn't even interested in reading them.

  16. #16
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    What we write isn't necessarily for Vince to read. He is obviously unwilling to LEARN anything from us, but at least we can prevent newbies from being spoonfed half the BS he posts and expects people to drop their existing routine and waste their time with his suggestions.
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  17. #17
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
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    i havent noticed any pattern in doms and gains

  18. #18
    Senior Member Accipiter's Avatar
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    so vince, did you juice for your mr. canada? You never answered.

  19. #19
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    lol.

    Easy Blood and Iron.

    I wasn't directing the long essay part towards you, it was a general statement. No offence but I have't even snuck a peak at your journal. It simply seemed like your post was sarcastic. Sorry for the miscommunication.

    El-Pietro, good point.

  20. #20
    hmm, I like to be big!!!
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    I think AccipterQ made some pretty good points that should be addressed. (hehe, yo accipter i bet that bear didn't have to juice to make it into the competition.)
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  21. #21
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Allen
    lol.

    Easy Blood and Iron.

    I wasn't directing the long essay part towards you, it was a general statement. No offence but I have't even snuck a peak at your journal. It simply seemed like your post was sarcastic. Sorry for the miscommunication.
    Upon rereading, I see I completely misinterpreted your post. My reading comprehension really sucks at times.

    Anyways, I apologize for my previous post. The frightening thing is that was the toned-down 'reasonable' version. Thank God, I didn't post the original version, because I'd feel like even more of an asshole than I currently do.

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  22. #22
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    PowerMan states that DOMS can be used to make gains if the required intensity is present. That is what I have been advocating. Take it or leave it. It is either a true physiological fact or not and has nothing whatever to do about opinions.

    Paul Mason believes I am stating that DOMS is necessary to obtain maximum hypertrophy. Not at all. Everyone to date has achieved maximum hypertrophy without exploiting DOMS whatsoever. That doesn't mean that faster progress wouldn't have been made had they recruited the DOMS principle to train.

    The reason I don't always respond is because I don't have a computer at work at the moment so seldom get online during the week.

    The bodybuilders of old did not have the equipment, knowledge of training or nutrition information that we have today. Imagine what Reeves could have done had he been competing today.

  23. #23
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    Intensity and technique and progressive resistance are the keys to growth, plain and simple.

  24. #24
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Vince Basile
    PowerMan states that DOMS can be used to make gains if the required intensity is present. That is what I have been advocating. Take it or leave it. It is either a true physiological fact or not and has nothing whatever to do about opinions.



    ************Wait a minute, that is not what you have been advocating. None of us (that I know of) has ever stated that DOMS inhibits growth. What we are arguing is that your theory indicates that getting as sore as possible, with the minimum number of sets, and plenty of rest is what is required for maximum growth.


    Paul Mason believes I am stating that DOMS is necessary to obtain maximum hypertrophy. Not at all. Everyone to date has achieved maximum hypertrophy without exploiting DOMS whatsoever. That doesn't mean that faster progress wouldn't have been made had they recruited the DOMS principle to train.


    ********I will sell no bodybuilding theory before its time...., er...ahemmm... You believe that DOMS is required for the quickest possible progress with relation to hypertrophy. Let me present a documented counterpoint. The Colorado Experiment performed by Nautilus in the early 70s (I believe). Casey Viator went from a bodyweight of 166.87 lbs to 212.15 lbs in 28 days. He trained 14 times in that 28 day period, using Nautilus principles (high intensity, very low volume). Now, Nautilus has always endorsed slow, controlled movements. As I have discussed in previous posts, slow and controlled movements minimize DOMS. Casey trained his entire body with 12 movements as the typical workout for this experiment. So, his DOMS was obviously minimal due to his training style, and it is indicated to be minimal by the fact that he was able to train 14 times in 28 days. So, roughly every other day he trained his entire body. As a note, Casey actually gained 63.21 lbs of lean mass as he loss some bodyfat over the period. Now, he was regaining previously lost muscle, but I doubt that you can provide an example of quicker hypertrophy, regardless of the circumstances. Casey gained 63.21 lbs of lean body mass in 28 days, all with minimal to no DOMS.


    The reason I don't always respond is because I don't have a computer at work at the moment so seldom get online during the week.

    The bodybuilders of old did not have the equipment, knowledge of training or nutrition information that we have today. Imagine what Reeves could have done had he been competing today.


    *************I am imagining, and other than creatine adding maybe 10lbs to his frame, without drugs he would have achieved nothing more than he did then. Period.




    Last edited by chris mason; 06-18-2002 at 09:20 AM.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Accipiter's Avatar
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    awwwwww man, you deleted my impersination

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