First my opinion about Vince's thoughts :
We don't know anything about hypertrophy training. We only know that we must load a muscle for a certain amount of time.
We don't know what's the best compromise between load and TUT. Nor we know more about frequency, there is no conscensus.
Vince propose an answer : do what you need to trigger Doms then you'll grow (if rest/diet are ok).
It's an answer, perhaps THE answer. Many experts think that doms is irrelevant but others think dooms is correlated to growth. Or at least that Doms is an indicator of hypertrophy processus.
SO Vince's Doms theory is not false nor right this theory need to be tested. We can't test it in laboratory. The only way is to try it in room !
Vince also gave us some guideslines to trigger DOMS. His method should be sufficient to get your whole lower body sore and certainly your upper body too. Perhaps we should add something for chest/triceps... if they don't get sore with the lat movement.
I think it's impossible to elaborate a method which will cause dooms on each individu. But at least Vince gave us some tips which should help us in our quete of DOMS ! (for the one who will test this theory)
Vince you were realy young when you gained MR.Canada so I think your training was very good and close to what we should do for hypertrophy. So how did you train when you were young ?
Don't you think that you did something right to achieve such a size ? (for... I guess a free drug BBs !?)
About dead certainly that this is not something which is "good" for joints etc but anyway BBs is not good for health...
About drugs I have to disagree with Vince, I realy think drugs play a big role and can increase a lot rate of progress and limit of progress. And I don't think our body will be able to support such mass (like Denis James) without drug. Anyway who want to look like Denis or Ronnie ??????
IMO every single person who has trained for around 2-3 years went through a stage of thinking " hey I guess the muscle is only growing when I get sore, so I`ll try and get sore in every workout" .
I did this myself for around a year , I tried everything more sets, slower reps, fast reps, drop sets etc etc..most of the time it worked . I was nearly always sore...apart from being sometimes paionful and uncomfortable, did I make tremendous gains..No.
Then we learned ( well....we now assume ) that doms isnt an indication of growth so from that point on I don`t train to get sore I simply train to be stonger on that particular bodypart than I was last time I trained, progressive overload. I dont give a monkeys anus if I`m sore or I`m not as long as I bettered my last workout.
Rememeber after every dark night, comes a bright day so no matter how hard it gets stick ya chest out, keep ya head up and handle it ! - Tupac shakur
To reply to Gavan I can say that we will have to wait a long time before any scientists give a hoot about building large muscles on humans. I could be wrong, but the history of exercise science is pathetic re experiments about maximum hypertrophy.
Do you people know how long 43 years is? A long time. In that time I have tried so many methods. Most methods I did not try because they didn't convince me that they had any worth.
When Arthur Jones published his thoughts about bodybuilding way back in the early 1970's we all thought the truth about training would soon be known. Here we are over 30 years later and no wiser about any such thing. There has been all manner of research done on muscles right down to the cellular level. Some people are convinced they know what is going on in the muscles concerning hypertrophy. I am not so confident any such complete knowledge of hypertrophy is available.
So it is back to the gyms where some have succeeded in building up their muscles. That should be sufficient. However, most of us feel the champs are not communicating their methods back to the bodybuilding masses. Hence, confusion still exists in magazines and in the minds of most trainees. Oh, not it the many online experts!
There is still plenty to learn about hypertrophy training. Plenty.
When I go back over my training years, which included many years in university studying the various journals, I have come to many conclusions from time to time that I thought accounted for hypertrophy. Most of the time my guesses were only part of the answer.
If I have anything to contribute to bodybuilding practice it is the method of training that requires bodybuilders to reach a maximum in an exercise, then stay at that maximum for several more sets. It is the repetition of these heavy sets that generates the most hypertrophy. I have found about 5 sets usually does it. I get the deep DOMS afterwards and the whole upper body is pumped when I do those pulldowns to the top of the chest. Strict, stretching reps but not slow ones. The accumulated tension of the most fibers is what does it. That is what I conclude, anyway.
Those who train as I advise and do not make gains will be a surprise. Please don't try this while cutting up. Or if you have extreme theories about nutrition that end up depriving you of enough energy to grow. For some strange reason you seem to need a lot more food to grow than seems sensible. One trick is to always weigh more at each workout. It may be ever so slightly more, but as long as you are heavier you should be growing. You can worry about the extra fat when you start cutting up.
The idea of doing just anything to generate DOMS might not work. That is why I recommend that you do the things that bodybuilders know will make them grow. There is no need to come up with new ideas here as it has all been tried before. When you have stimulated growth through a workout you will be exhausted, sweating, pumped, shaking and feeling great. I am afraid there is no easy way to get big!
Five sets at the maximum weight in an exercise and keep the growing exercises down to no more than 5 each week, and preferably less than 4.
OMG Vince, you write so on every single topic man. you rant and rant, and then you dont even respond when people question your "theories". I personally find that stupid.
Last edited by Titan; 06-19-2002 at 08:17 PM.
please tell me more about your opinion
Which growing exercises would you chose and how to spread over the week ?
I don't know about Vince, but personally I would choose 4 lifts/muscles I'd really like to improve, and work on those.
Beachbody coaching lets you turn your hobby into a career - Beachbody
'We don't know anything about hypertrophy training. We only know that we must load a muscle for a certain amount of time. We don't know what's the best compromise between load and TUT. Nor we know more about frequency, there is no conscensus.'
I believe we do know about these things. A lot. There has been mountains of research on this. And there's no reason vince's theories could not be tested in a lab.
I believe we do know about these things. A lot. There has been mountains of research on this.
*what do you know ?
And there's no reason vince's theories could not be tested in a lab.
*Yes but none did relevant studies about dooms....
perhaps something more important than doms is stretch feeling.
Last edited by Gavan; 06-22-2002 at 02:37 PM.
Gain Muscles ? Overload !
Lose Fat ? Input < Output
Genetic determines your potential
Chins : 10x106kg Dips 10x109kg