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  1. #1
    The Tuna Tempter
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    Metabolic Diet

    Hi all,
    I've just started up on a Metabolic Diet today. Firstly, what does everyone think of this diet? Secondly, I'm confused about something: I read an article on WBB that said when on a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet (metabolic diet) you should workout on the first two days after your two day carb load up period. But how does this make sense.....if I workout on Monday, my body will still be recovering on Tuesday and I will still be experiecing DOMS from the Monday workout when it's time for my Tuesday workout. What should i do? I want to continue my 3 day split, but I'm willing to do a 2 day split. I just want to know if it's alright to workout heavy on the first and third days after my carb load up period, as I would like to designate Tuesday as a recovery day. Will this work out alright?

    -John
    Life's too short to be small

  2. #2
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    I'd do the consecutive Monday/Tuesday workouts, with a depletion workout on Friday.

    This is one big reason I prefer a TKD.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
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  3. #3
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    Pauly, do you know of any TKD articles around? (good ones).
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  4. #4
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Not off the top of my head.

    Do a search on google groups in mfw looking for TKD and Lyle mcDonald.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  5. #5
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    I noticed a few of your posts there, Pauly.

    Righty, from what i can gather:

    protein at 0.9-1g per lb
    cals at around 10-12 at first
    any indirect carb sources (keep it minimal)
    the rest = fat.

    25-50g carbs pre-workout: amount dependant upon amount of activity, GI dependant on what time you're eating them ie high GI sooner to training, low GI eaten further from training.

    25-50g carb post workout: amount again dependant upon amount of activity.

    And then a carb up ever 2 weeks or so for 24 hours if you feel you need it?

    Is that right?
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  6. #6
    The Tuna Tempter
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    paul,
    if you do 2 consecutive workouts, the body won't have time to replenish the glycogen stores, right? and, you will/might still be suffering DOMS from the previous workout. Will it do any harm to my body working out 2 days in a row, i.e: muscle loss etc ??

    If 2 consecutive workouts are fine, then i'll be doing all my upper body on a sunday, and lower body on a monday.....is this a good way of doing it?


    -John
    Life's too short to be small

  7. #7
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    John, you shouldn't look at it as an opportunity to build muscle, only maintain muscle. (although muscle gaining is very possible)

    Any potential muscle loss incurred, in theory, is replaced during the glycogen supercompensation carb up over the weekend.

    And your idea for workouts sound fine.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  8. #8
    bien bueno! Marcel's Avatar
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    I know of an excellent TKD article. I could share it if I were so inclined.
    "In the grand scheme of things, both things are quite superficial(obsessed with being muscular&ripped and incredibly strong). And yet lifting can teach you so much. My time at the gym--at least when I'm lifting--is invariably the high-point of my day. There aren't any questions; I almost don't even think. I go into an almost meditative trance-like state. Day-to-day worries become insignificant. I'm focused solely on the weight, and my reason for existence is clear. To move the bar and to improve on what I accomplished last time. Seldom are things so simple." - Blood&Iron

    "Most people cannot understand what burns in our blood, the gym is our addiction and iron is our drug. People don't understand why we commit hours a day to a goal where progress is so small it seems immeasurable, why we do cardio instead of watch TV, why eat 6 meals a day, why we insist on ordering diet soda or how we can drink skim milk. Most people will simply never grasp why we refuse to settle for a mediocre body." - Severed Ties

  9. #9
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    Post it. Don't make me hurt you man.




















    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  10. #10
    bien bueno! Marcel's Avatar
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    *flexes upper chest, then lower chest and finally flexes INNER CHEST!!!*

    Here ya go amigo...http://www.elitefitness.com/articledata/mrx/tkdmrx.html
    "In the grand scheme of things, both things are quite superficial(obsessed with being muscular&ripped and incredibly strong). And yet lifting can teach you so much. My time at the gym--at least when I'm lifting--is invariably the high-point of my day. There aren't any questions; I almost don't even think. I go into an almost meditative trance-like state. Day-to-day worries become insignificant. I'm focused solely on the weight, and my reason for existence is clear. To move the bar and to improve on what I accomplished last time. Seldom are things so simple." - Blood&Iron

    "Most people cannot understand what burns in our blood, the gym is our addiction and iron is our drug. People don't understand why we commit hours a day to a goal where progress is so small it seems immeasurable, why we do cardio instead of watch TV, why eat 6 meals a day, why we insist on ordering diet soda or how we can drink skim milk. Most people will simply never grasp why we refuse to settle for a mediocre body." - Severed Ties

  11. #11
    The Tuna Tempter
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    Chicken Daddy,
    What makes you say that it is only an opportunity to maintain muscle?? I thought that the metabolic diet allows you to lose fat while gaining muscle?
    -John


    btw, thanks alot for that link Marcel.
    Life's too short to be small

  12. #12
    bien bueno! Marcel's Avatar
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    Tank - no problem bro.

    Tank might also want to do a search on Lyle McDonald on google.com He is the man when it comes to CKD/keto diets(and a lot of other bodybuilding matter in fact). There has been arguments about ketones not being protein sparing at all. The reason why the CKD works now they say is because of the weekend carb-ups(raising leptigen,etc.). Also fat satisfies SOME people's hunger when they are eating reduced calories.
    "In the grand scheme of things, both things are quite superficial(obsessed with being muscular&ripped and incredibly strong). And yet lifting can teach you so much. My time at the gym--at least when I'm lifting--is invariably the high-point of my day. There aren't any questions; I almost don't even think. I go into an almost meditative trance-like state. Day-to-day worries become insignificant. I'm focused solely on the weight, and my reason for existence is clear. To move the bar and to improve on what I accomplished last time. Seldom are things so simple." - Blood&Iron

    "Most people cannot understand what burns in our blood, the gym is our addiction and iron is our drug. People don't understand why we commit hours a day to a goal where progress is so small it seems immeasurable, why we do cardio instead of watch TV, why eat 6 meals a day, why we insist on ordering diet soda or how we can drink skim milk. Most people will simply never grasp why we refuse to settle for a mediocre body." - Severed Ties

  13. #13
    The Tuna Tempter
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    thanks for your reply Marcel.

    I am so confused at the moment....I seriously don't know what to do! Some people say one thing, some say something totally different. This is my second day on the metabolic diet....and I'm starting to worry that eating too much protein (as high fat/low carb foods tend to contain a lot of protein) will put a burden on my kidneys...i don't want to get kidney failure or anything like that. And now Chicken Daddy states that I should not look at a metabolic diet as a means of gaining muscle. So confused.....
    Now also I am having doubts if this is the best way to go about my training program (metabolic diet). I want to get HUGE therefore I want to be able to put on as much muscle mass as possible, and what's the use of wasting time and energy in the gym if my diet will be letting me down and not gain mass to my full potential, please someone tell me if I should ditch this metabolic diet for the time being....and go through a bulking then cutting phase. The other thing I'm worried about is that if I go through a bulking then cutting phase...what if i am unable to lose the excess fat..at the moment i already have a small pot belly...and i don't want to turn into a fat ass and stay that way.

    today this is my approximate protein, carb, fat and calorie intake respectively for all my meals + snacks: 241.9g, 30.3g, 178.6g and 2701 calories. Do y'all think this is too much protein and calories? (I'm 18 y.o btw, if that makes any difference)

    Any help would be very much appreciated,
    -John
    Life's too short to be small

  14. #14
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    John, it IS possible to add muscle, but you really need to decide on your priorities.

    You can either be in a state of anabolism (growth) or catobolism (fat loss in this case). It's extremely difficult, although not impossible, to do both.

    You should decide what's more important for you right now - putting on muscle or losing fat. If it's putting on muscle, then just do a basic isocaloric diet. You can gain muscle on CKD, but the unpleasantries of low carb training just sucks for gaining.

    If it's fat loss, then do the keto (although there are other diets out there) with below maintainance calorie level and hope that you retain as much muscle as possible.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  15. #15
    The Tuna Tempter
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    I've decided that I should go for a bulking then cutting phase. During the bulking phase I will eat a diet consisting of 45-55% of calories from carbs, 15-25% of calories from fat and the rest from protein. During my cutting phase I will stick to a TKD diet.
    What do you all think of this?

    Also, please still answer all of the questions i asked in the last post, as i'm interested in all your opinions
    -John
    Life's too short to be small

  16. #16
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    Firstly, high protein only cause problems in people who already have kidney problems. There's no scientific evidence showing that it effects people with perfectly healthy kidneys.

    Switching to 45% of carbs for your mass gain is fine.

    Doing a TKD to lose weight is fine.

    If you add fat, you can take it off. You just need dedication and patience.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  17. #17
    The Tuna Tempter
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    Chicken Daddy,
    I guess you're right mate, with anything, if you're to achieve something it requires dedication, and in this case patience.
    Thanks alot everyone for all your help, I am now less confused than i was before. I have my mind set on my diet and training strategy now, i hope i can keep it this way.

    I have a few more questions, i know i should probably start a new thread for these, but i'll just ask them here.

    If I don't experience DOMS the day after a workout, does that mean I haven't worked out with enough intensity? If I am experiencing DOMS in my upper body from the previous workout, and it is time for my legs workout, should I postpone my legs workout until the DOMS in my upper body has disappeared?

    Another thing....I feel as though I train fairly hard, some of the guys at school don't train on a regular basis, they're just occasional weight trainers whenever they can be stuffed...but they reckon that when they do start training again, after a long absence from it (in the order of months) they can get 'big' in a matter of a week or two. I've been training for a year and a half on a regular basis, why do I not see tremendous gains like this?

    -John
    Life's too short to be small

  18. #18
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tank23
    Chicken Daddy,
    I guess you're right mate, with anything, if you're to achieve something it requires dedication, and in this case patience.
    Thanks alot everyone for all your help, I am now less confused than i was before. I have my mind set on my diet and training strategy now, i hope i can keep it this way.


    Good stuff.


    I have a few more questions, i know i should probably start a new thread for these, but i'll just ask them here.

    If I don't experience DOMS the day after a workout, does that mean I haven't worked out with enough intensity?
    Nope. DOMS is not an indicator of a good workout. Make sure you progress each each ie lift more weight than previously or lift the same weight with more reps (With strict and controlled form, naturally).

    If I am experiencing DOMS in my upper body from the previous workout, and it is time for my legs workout, should I postpone my legs workout until the DOMS in my upper body has disappeared?
    Not necessarily. If you feel like you can train your legs properly without upperbody soreness stopping you then there's no reason to postpone.

    Another thing....I feel as though I train fairly hard, some of the guys at school don't train on a regular basis, they're just occasional weight trainers whenever they can be stuffed...but they reckon that when they do start training again, after a long absence from it (in the order of months) they can get 'big' in a matter of a week or two. I've been training for a year and a half on a regular basis, why do I not see tremendous gains like this?

    -John
    Nah, not gonna happen. I was originally gonna ask you to define "big", but no matter what you say, 2 weeks isn't enough time to notice any significant difference.

    Just ignore them and focus on your lifting.

    Good luck.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  19. #19
    The Tuna Tempter
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    Thanks alot for all your help Chicken Daddy, you've really got me on track now. Thanks again

    -John
    Life's too short to be small

  20. #20
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    Good to hear.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  21. #21
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    So much stuff...

    TCD - you got it right. I ate 30-50g of carbs (smarties candy) about 30 minutes priro to lifting, and 20g whey protein immediately after lifting... then an hour or so later, I would eat a regular keto meal.

    I didn't bother with any additional carbups.

    The point of the consecutive day workouts on a CKD is outlined well by Lyle in his articles and book. On a CKD, glygogen stores are replentished during the carb up, not any other time. It shouldn't be counter productive, but i don't think it is the best way to train... the thing is, you are trying to maintain mass, not gain it. keto dieting isn't going to be a very good way to gain muscle mass.

    No reason to worry about protein intake, and keto dieting isn't higher protein than any other diet I would suggest.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  22. #22
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    30-50 you say?

    I was under the impression that such an amount *may* be too much.

    But then again, i guess it depends on how much volume and/or activity you're planning on doing.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

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