The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
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    Need cardio while bulking up??

    I just wonder that I need to do cardio exercise while bulking up..
    plz help..

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  3. #2
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    Whatever cardio you do when bulking, make sure to replace the lost calories with some food. Generally not a lot for bulking phase though I think some (say 20 to 30 minutes) is good. A lot of people here would say none, but it's up to you.
    Now in pain, only working out the walking sticks.

  4. #3
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    thx for ur advise but still not sure about the intensity for the cardio..should i keep the intensity lower??

  5. #4
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    and how many times per week??

  6. #5
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    Don't be so afraid of doing cardio, while bulking. To counteract any negative effects cardio might have just eat more. I would probably do high intensity cardio actually seeing as you are most likely looking more for a healthy heart than to cut (since you are already bulking). 2-3 times a week for no more than 20 minutes should be fine.

  7. #6
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    ........or simply arrange your routine so that your weight training stresses your cardiovascular system.

    Minimal rest periods and reps of 10-12 will not only hypertrophy the muscles but strengthen the heart muscle as well.
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  8. #7
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    Originally posted by Maki Riddington
    ........or simply arrange your routine so that your weight training stresses your cardiovascular system.

    Minimal rest periods and reps of 10-12 will not only hypertrophy the muscles but strengthen the heart muscle as well.
    I disagree with this philosophy Maki. If you are not resting enough, you are not using the heaviest weights possible and are therefore not putting as much stress on your muscles as possible. I personally think this is the lazy man's way out of doing cardio.

  9. #8
    Equal Opportunity Offender Budiak's Avatar
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    The only reason I ever do cardio when bulking is to reduce the amount of water being stored in my fat ass while I'm consuming all of that rice and milk and crap.

    Well, not so much crap, but still. Besides, it does make it so you're not at zero when you start doing cardio for cutting again, dig?
    Dig.



    Now lets eat.

  10. #9
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    Hold it now...

    Maki - since when does weightlifting, an anaerobic exercise become aerobic? The only way you'll strengthen your heart through exercise if it is prolonged and intense, you have to keep your heart rate elevated in order to do this. How can you keep your heart rate elevated at the necessary levels while lifting weights? Not very long at all. Weightlifting is NOT the same as cardio and you can't make it that way. Cardio and lifting are separate things, it's fine if you choose not to do cardio, but don't suggest that you can get a two for one deal by shortening your breaks.

  11. #10
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Vido


    I disagree with this philosophy Maki. If you are not resting enough, you are not using the heaviest weights possible and are therefore not putting as much stress on your muscles as possible. I personally think this is the lazy man's way out of doing cardio.
    *** The old age addage that heavy weights are the only prerequisite for muscle growth is incorrect. Cardiovascular work should not be limited to sweating it out on a treadmill or by jogging around a track. The body can grow if there is a overload placed on it's many systems. Heavy weights is a term that has many meanings. Heavy can be used when lifting to failure, whether the load is lifted for 15 repititopns or 6. Rest periods can make a weight 'feel' heavy if you limit them. The TUT used when lifting can be a limiting factor and again make the weight heavy even if it's only 10 pounds. The list goes on.
    As for weight training being a "lazy man's" version, I guess you've never done this type of training? If you had, you wouldn't be critisizing it now, would you?
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  12. #11
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Re: Hold it now...

    Originally posted by g-dot
    Maki - since when does weightlifting, an anaerobic exercise become aerobic? The only way you'll strengthen your heart through exercise if it is prolonged and intense, you have to keep your heart rate elevated in order to do this. How can you keep your heart rate elevated at the necessary levels while lifting weights? Not very long at all. Weightlifting is NOT the same as cardio and you can't make it that way. Cardio and lifting are separate things, it's fine if you choose not to do cardio, but don't suggest that you can get a two for one deal by shortening your breaks.
    *** First off, the topic at hand was on "cardio," the poster didn't verify whether they were specifically talking about aerobic or anaerobic methods of cardiovascular training.
    Secondly, if exercise is to be long and hard with an elevated heart rate this would not be defined as aerobic would it now?
    One can't go for "long" periods at a "hard" pace. Unless of course you have a very high lactate threshold.
    If you have never felt your heart rate after a set of squats for 4,8,10, 12 or whatever rep range then I would suggest you do. Try taking your pulse, now see how long it takes to subside, it'll be awhile. Now couple this with a short rest period of 30-60 seconds and while using a variety of compound movements and you'll have your heart rate soaring in no time at all.
    On average, the body can expend up to 600 calories an hour from weigt lifting. Now that's pretty darn good if you ask me.

    As for stating that one can not do both you seem to be lacking in some phisiology of the body. I would challenge you to show me how physiologically speaking how it's impossible?
    Looking forward to hearing back from you.
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  13. #12
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    Originally posted by Maki Riddington


    *** The old age addage that heavy weights are the only prerequisite for muscle growth is incorrect. Cardiovascular work should not be limited to sweating it out on a treadmill or by jogging around a track. The body can grow if there is a overload placed on it's many systems. Heavy weights is a term that has many meanings. Heavy can be used when lifting to failure, whether the load is lifted for 15 repititopns or 6. Rest periods can make a weight 'feel' heavy if you limit them. The TUT used when lifting can be a limiting factor and again make the weight heavy even if it's only 10 pounds. The list goes on.
    As for weight training being a "lazy man's" version, I guess you've never done this type of training? If you had, you wouldn't be critisizing it now, would you?
    Well if you do enough pushups then your bodyweight begins to feel heavy as well. Is this optimal stimulation for the pecs and tri's to grow? Hmmmmmm...didn't think so. Doing db curls with 15 lbs enough times will make the weight feel heavy. Is this accomplishing what you want?
    In fact, I have done this kind of training and found it to be entirely useless as I WAS CARDIOVASCULARLY tired (so yes, maybe it did a bit of cardio) and thereore was not getting a good weight training session in. However, why sabotage your weight training to incorporate a weak attempt at cardio into your routine? That is why it is the lazy man's way out. It is stupid to try to kill two birds with one stone and incorporate a good weights workout with a good cardio workout. Take the time and do them both properly.

  14. #13
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    If you have to pick apart my poor wording then you really don't have much of a rebuttal then do you? Your heart rate after a set is elevated. I don't deny that, but try taking it 2-3 minutes later and it'll be far below your initial reading. The fact is you CAN'T sustain that heart rate AND do intense weightlifting it's one or the other. You suggest shorter breaks can do this but I challenge you to work out heavy without breaks for 45-60 minutes. You won't be able to fatigue your muscles adequately because you will be too out of breath from the cardiovascular taxation. You need to maintain your an elevated heartrate for periods of over 30 minutes to see significant cardiovascular benefits and you cannot do this while lifting weights. As to the statement you made about the calories your body expends during weightlifting, not to be rude, but so what? Lifting weights is a far more effective way of elevating your metabolism. During aerobic exercise you have an elevated metabolic rate only during said exercise and up to 1 hour afterward. From weightlifting your metabolic rate is elevated for up to 5-6 hours. You suggest that I lack physiological understanding of the body and that can't be further from the truth.

    In terms of cardiovascular benefits it is a one or the other situation. Running, cycling, rowing, swimming etc. are far more beneficial for your cardiovascular system than weightlifting. Comparison wise this is true but I mean if your point is that you'll have a stronger heart doing weights than not working out at all you're correct. All that I am trying to say is that compared to the aforementioned exercises weighlifting pales in comparison.

  15. #14
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Vido


    Well if you do enough pushups then your bodyweight begins to feel heavy as well. Is this optimal stimulation for the pecs and tri's to grow? Hmmmmmm...didn't think so. Doing db curls with 15 lbs enough times will make the weight feel heavy. Is this accomplishing what you want?
    In fact, I have done this kind of training and found it to be entirely useless as I WAS CARDIOVASCULARLY tired (so yes, maybe it did a bit of cardio) and thereore was not getting a good weight training session in. However, why sabotage your weight training to incorporate a weak attempt at cardio into your routine? That is why it is the lazy man's way out. It is stupid to try to kill two birds with one stone and incorporate a good weights workout with a good cardio workout. Take the time and do them both properly.
    *** Of course not. Why your telling me this? Please reread my post and you will see that the term "heaviest" was explained sufficiently.
    So you've used it. Would you care to share what you did, what weight you lifted in terms of relative percentage of your 1RM? The sets, reps, rest periods. Did you train to failure? Was it sub maximal type training? Notice how I said it can be done, but there is a specific way that it is to be followed so that hypertrophy can pursue. If it was such a weak attempt at cardio then why were you so tiered? You're catching yourself here, be careful. Simply saying it's a "lazy mans attempt" is not good enough. If done right you can accomplish both.

    Do a search, Powerman and myself have made comments and I even posted a routine.
    Maki Fit Blog

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    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  16. #15
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    Originally posted by Maki Riddington
    If it was such a weak attempt at cardio then why were you so tiered? You're catching yourself here, be careful.
    I'm not catching myself at all. You'll notice I even put that in brackets to draw attention to it. I wasn't just trying to slip it in without you noticing (I save that for the little girls , j/k). The fact of the matter is that I wasn't huffing and puffing like a good HIT cardio session would result in, but I was fatigued enough to not get the most out of my weight training. It's a pretty simple concept to me. I don't know about you. Weight training and cardio are 2 separate things. Read g-dot's explanation of why cardio and weight training differ. He hits the nail on the head. Sure, weight training is better cardio than an activity such as...i don't know...sleeping! But it is certainly not better than an actual cardio session. Don't do real cardio if you want, but don't try to make yourself feel better by lying to yourself and making up excuses as to why you don't NEED to do it.

  17. #16
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    [[QUOTE]Originally posted by g-dot
    [B]If you have to pick apart my poor wording then you really don't have much of a rebuttal then do you? Your heart rate after a set is elevated. I don't deny that, but try taking it 2-3 minutes later and it'll be far below your initial reading.

    *** PLEASE READ my post again, I said minimal rest periods (30-60 seconds), not 2-3 minutes.

    The fact is you CAN'T sustain that heart rate AND do intense weightlifting it's one or the other. You suggest shorter breaks can do this but I challenge you to work out heavy without breaks for 45-60 minutes.

    *** Thats the beauty of it. You don't need to work out that long. You can be in and out in 20 minutes.

    You won't be able to fatigue your muscles adequately because you will be too out of breath from the cardiovascular taxation.
    You need to maintain your an elevated heartrate for periods of over 30 minutes to see significant cardiovascular benefits and you cannot do this while lifting weights.

    *** Can you prove this with some studies?
    I did not know that at 30 minutes you can majically attain cardiovascular fitness.

    As to the statement you made about the calories your body expends during weightlifting, not to be rude, but so what? Lifting weights is a far more effective way of elevating your metabolism. During aerobic exercise you have an elevated metabolic rate only during said exercise and up to 1 hour afterward. From weightlifting your metabolic rate is elevated for up to 5-6 hours. You suggest that I lack physiological understanding of the body and that can't be further from the truth.

    *** Well so far you've shown me nothing in terms of phisiology that would change my mind. I chose to mention this because it goes to show that the body indeed is actively working. So much so, that there is a lot of energy being expended. But who cares, because the post I countered was that the heart indeed can be strengthed without other activities.

    In terms of cardiovascular benefits it is a one or the other situation. Running, cycling, rowing, swimming etc. are far more beneficial for your cardiovascular system than weightlifting. Comparison wise this is true but I mean if your point is that you'll have a stronger heart doing weights than not working out at all you're correct. All that I am trying to say is that compared to the aforementioned exercises weighlifting pales in comparison.

    *** The post was in regards to the heart muscle. So your arguing with yourself.
    Last edited by Maki Riddington; 06-19-2002 at 12:57 AM.
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  18. #17
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    Maki, I disagree completely. There's no way you can properly tax your muscles if you're more worried about the cardio benefits. I agree you are tired as hell afterward, but from what I've done (10-12 reps 30 seconds between sets) I see much better muscle gains from taking longer rest periods and lifting to the maximum potential of your muscles. If your lifts are struggling from the fact your heary rate is elevated there's no way you're getting the best results possible.

  19. #18
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Vido


    I'm not catching myself at all. You'll notice I even put that in brackets to draw attention to it. I wasn't just trying to slip it in without you noticing (I save that for the little girls , j/k). The fact of the matter is that I wasn't huffing and puffing like a good HIT cardio session would result in, but I was fatigued enough to not get the most out of my weight training. It's a pretty simple concept to me. I don't know about you. Weight training and cardio are 2 separate things. Read g-dot's explanation of why cardio and weight training differ. He hits the nail on the head. Sure, weight training is better cardio than an activity such as...i don't know...sleeping! But it is certainly not better than an actual cardio session. Don't do real cardio if you want, but don't try to make yourself feel better by lying to yourself and making up excuses as to why you don't NEED to do it.

    *** Look these references up. They will show you that the heart indeed can be strengthened through weight training.


    1. J Appl Physiol 2002 Feb;92(2):672-8 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
    Effects of resistance training on physical function in older disabled women with coronary heart disease.
    Brochu M, Savage P, Lee M, Dee J, Cress ME, Poehlman ET, Tischler M, Ades PA.

    2. Int J Cardiol 2001 Nov;81(1):61-74 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
    Acute cardiovascular responses to leg-press resistance exercise in heart transplant recipients.
    Oliver D, Pflugfelder

    3. Prog Cardiovasc Nurs 2001 Fall;16(4):142-51 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
    The effects of resistance exercise on skeletal muscle abnormalities in patients with advanced heart failure.
    King L.

    I've only begun to do a search. Note, these were done on heart patients which should be even more proof that weight training is a great tool for strengthening the heart.
    Maki Fit Blog

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    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  20. #19
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    Yes, the heart can be strengthened, but I doubt it will be strengthened as much as it would be through real cardio.

  21. #20
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Clark
    Maki, I disagree completely. There's no way you can properly tax your muscles if you're more worried about the cardio benefits. I agree you are tired as hell afterward, but from what I've done (10-12 reps 30 seconds between sets) I see much better muscle gains from taking longer rest periods and lifting to the maximum potential of your muscles. If your lifts are struggling from the fact your heary rate is elevated there's no way you're getting the best results possible.
    *** I will ask that you reread my intial post. I am talking about the heart. Those who have chose to debate with me are changing the topic at hand.
    Also, I didn't say that there would be a more effective result in hpertrophy.
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  22. #21
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Clark
    Yes, the heart can be strengthened, but I doubt it will be strengthened as much as it would be through real cardio.
    *** Prove me wrong. What you think and what is fact are two different things. Fact outweighs thought.
    Good night.
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  23. #22
    Banned
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    Originally posted by Clark
    Yes, the heart can be strengthened, but I doubt it will be strengthened as much as it would be through real cardio.
    Sorry, I don't have any medical studies on hand (cough,cough...I mean who do you think we are...we're not experts). But, really...how can you argue with Clark's statement? It is so blatantly obvious. Stop lying to yourself and admit that you are wrong and the discussion can end. Or at least get someone to back you up. I mean g-dot, clark, and myself have basically torn you apart and I see us on the winning side of the debate by a landslide as it stands currently.

  24. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    Aha
    So True Vido
    Maki, why don't you prove yourself correct? Maybe it's cause you can't.

  25. #24
    PR blaster!
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    i agree with maki regarding the fact that one can gear weightlifting towards cardiovascular fitness. And in some ways it might be more effective than conventional moderate intensity cardio.

  26. #25
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    Originally posted by sysopt
    i agree with maki regarding the fact that one can gear weightlifting towards cardiovascular fitness. And in some ways it might be more effective than conventional moderate intensity cardio.
    You can do a lot of things, but it doesn't mean that they are good ideas. Also, in what ways is it more effective? Please enlighten us.

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