The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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Thread: Stretching

  1. #1
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    I like to stretch before i lift for obvios reasons.

    For biceps i just really pull on something but i was wondering if there was any better way of doing it?

    Also, for shoulders i stretch up and out - are there any special ways of stretching your shoulders?

    Cheers guys.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

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  3. #2
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    Robster strech lightly before training to limber up your muscles but do your real stretching after training.

    streching hard after training has been showen to increase muscle growth by stretching the facsia around the muscles

    Stretching during training is benificial but after wards is even more so. Stretching too much before hand can put your muscles in a weaker state to contract and increase your risk of injury.


    I stretch lightly, do limbering exercises, and a few light sets to get warm then I hit the heavy stuff, none of that pyrimiding crap.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    Even a very small amount of strentching before exercise weakens you.

    Just warm up before exercise, and stretch afterwards.

    BTW, there is really no need to do more than 1 30 second stretch per muscle group, anymore than that isn't giving any more of a benefit.

  5. #4
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    Originally posted by Cackerot69


    BTW, there is really no need to do more than 1 30 second stretch per muscle group, anymore than that isn't giving any more of a benefit.
    BULLS**T

  6. #5
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    LMAO.....Ronan...if you're going to disagree, give more than a one word answer.

  7. #6
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    No I couldnt be arsed to debate at the moment so maybe tommorow but thats still BS

  8. #7
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    Bwahahahahaahahah....

  9. #8
    Hmmmm..... Spiderman's Avatar
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    I like to stretch during training as well.

    "Success is never behind you, it is always, always in front of you."

  10. #9
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Ronan said,
    streching hard after training has been showen to increase muscle growth by stretching the facsia around the muscles


    *** Thats true, but only if someone has tight muscles, other than that if someone demonstrates proper flexibilty then most likely their fascia is not going to be encapsulating the muscle that much so that it limits muscle growth.

    Cackerot69,
    Even a very small amount of strentching before exercise weakens you.

    *** It can, but don't take everything you read to heart.

    BTW, there is really no need to do more than 1 30 second stretch per muscle group, anymore than that isn't giving any more of a benefit.

    *** Why is that? What population are you saying that this statement is directed towards? Is it people who have already demonstarted that they are flexible so that it is not a limiting factor whether it be sports, work etc?
    Last edited by Maki Riddington; 05-12-2001 at 05:23 PM.
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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  11. #10
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    I actually feel stronger if i stretch and rest sufficiently between sets - especially on leg exercises. Strange that.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  12. #11
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    "It can, but don't take everything you read to heart."

    Trust me, i don't.

    "Why is that? What population are you saying that this statement is directed towards? Is it people who have already demonstarted that they are flexible so that it is not a limiting factor whether it be sports, work etc?"

    Here are some studies for you:

    How much stretching do you really need?

    Less than you might think.

    A recent study showed that one 30-second stretch was just as effective as three stretches lasting 60 seconds.

    To establish the optimum stretching time needed to improve flexibility, researchers from the University of Arkansas examined the effects of four different stretching routines. Previous studies show that 30 seconds of stretching improves flexibility to a greater extent than a 15 second stretch. However, it's unclear whether a 60-second stretch is any better than a 30-second stretch.

    Subjects stretched their hamstrings five days per week for six weeks. They were asked to place their heel on an elevated surface, and bend forward from the waist until they felt a "gentle stretch" in the back of the thigh. This position was held for 30-60 seconds. Each stretching session was supervised, and subjects missing more than four sessions were dropped from the study.

    Here's what happened to hamstring flexibility in the four groups:

    Frequency Duration Flexibility Improvement
    3 times a day 60 seconds 24%
    3 times a day 30 seconds 24%
    1 time a day 60 seconds 24%
    1 time a day 30 seconds 27%

    As you can see, there was no real difference between multiple 60-second stretches and a single 30-second stretch.

    That doesn't mean you can't stretch for longer than 30 seconds -- just that you don't have to.

    Reference

    Bandy, W.D., Irion, J.M., & Briggler, M. (1997). The effect of time and frequency of static stretching on flexibility of the hamstring muscles. Physical Therapy, 77, 1090-1096

    *********************************************

    Warning! Too much stretching can actually make you weaker

    Prolonged stretching before exercise can actually reduce muscle strength.

    Researchers from the Department of Kinesiology at Canada's McMaster University measured muscle strength in the soleus (pronounced so-lee-us -- you'll find it at the back of your lower leg) following 30 minutes of stretching.

    The table below shows you how muscle strength changed following the stretching procedure:

    Minutes after stretching Drop in muscle strength
    Immediate - 28%
    5 minutes - 21%
    15 minutes - 13%
    30 minutes - 12%
    45 minutes - 10 %
    60 minutes - 9%

    As you can see, muscle strength dropped by almost 30% immediately following the stretch. Even one hour later, soleus had still not returned to "full strength". So does this mean you should you avoid the pre-exercise stretch altogether?

    Not exactly.

    Think about it from an evolutionary standpoint. If your stone-age ancestors needed to stretch before killing their next meal, they probably wouldn't have survived very long.

    Now, that isn't to say you shouldn't bother warming up before you train. But make your warm up specific. If you're about to train with weights, then warm up by lifting lighter weights. And a small amount of stretching won't damage your performance -- after all, subjects in this study were stretching virtually non-stop for 30 minutes. But if you're planning to do a lot of stretching, make sure to do it AFTER you train.

    Reference

    Fowles, J.R., Sale, D.G., & MacDougall, J.D. (2000). Reduced strength after passive stretch of the human plantarflexors. Journal of Applied Physiology, 89, 1179-1188

    *********************************************

    Stretching before exercise: A way to prevent injury or a waste of your time?

    According to Australian scientists, stretching before exercise does not significantly reduce your risk of injury.

    The researchers tested over 1500 male army recruits during a 12-week training programme. Half of the recruits completed five minutes of stretching (consisting of one 20-second stretch for the muscles in the leg) as part of a warm up. The rest performed no pre-exercise stretching.

    Analysing the results, the authors concluded that stretching had no effect on injury prevention. A recruit was defined as injured when he was unable to return to normal duties within 3 days.

    Although there was a reduced incidence of injury in the group that stretched (see table below), this was not statistically significant.

    Group Recruits in Group Number of Injuries Injury Rate
    Stretch 803 175 22%
    No Stretch 735 158 21%

    However, further investigation into the study reveals some interesting facts.

    Firstly, injuries such as stress fractures were included in the analysis. However, it is debatable whether stretching would have any effect on bone injuries. Secondly, injuries such as muscle strains and ligament sprains (the type of injury you would expect stretching to affect) were actually INCREASED by 40% in the group that did not stretch.

    The researchers claim that, "pre-exercise muscle stretching does not produce a clinically worthwhile reduction in the risk of lower-limb injury". However, it's important to define what is meant by the term 'injury'. Stretching may not reduce the incidence of stress fractures. In contrast, it does appear to have a beneficial effect on muscle strains and ligament sprains.

    Stretching before exercise requires very little time or effort. Even if it offers only a small protection against injury, pre-exercise stretching would appear to be a wise investment of your time.

    Reference

    Pope, R.P., Herbert, R.D., Kirwan, J.D., & Graham, B.J. (2000). A randomized trial of preexercise stretching for prevention of lower-limb injury. Medicine and Science in Sports & Exercise, 32, 271-277

    *********************************************

    Make your own decision.

  13. #12
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    How much stretching do you really need?

    Less than you might think.

    A recent study showed that one 30-second stretch was just as effective as three stretches lasting 60 seconds.

    To establish the optimum stretching time needed to improve flexibility, researchers from the University of Arkansas examined the effects of four different stretching routines. Previous studies show that 30 seconds of stretching improves flexibility to a greater extent than a 15 second stretch. However, it's unclear whether a 60-second stretch is any better than a 30-second stretch.

    Subjects stretched their hamstrings five days per week for six weeks. They were asked to place their heel on an elevated surface, and bend forward from the waist until they felt a "gentle stretch" in the back of the thigh. This position was held for 30-60 seconds. Each stretching session was supervised, and subjects missing more than four sessions were dropped from the study.

    Here's what happened to hamstring flexibility in the four groups:

    Frequency Duration Flexibility Improvement
    3 times a day 60 seconds 24%
    3 times a day 30 seconds 24%
    1 time a day 60 seconds 24%
    1 time a day 30 seconds 27%

    As you can see, there was no real difference between multiple 60-second stretches and a single 30-second stretch.

    That doesn't mean you can't stretch for longer than 30 seconds -- just that you don't have to.

    Reference

    Bandy, W.D., Irion, J.M., & Briggler, M. (1997). The effect of time and frequency of static stretching on flexibility of the hamstring muscles. Physical Therapy, 77, 1090-1096

    *********************************************
    *** This study only used one type of stretching, what about PNF,dynamic,ballistic and contract relax to name a few.
    The study only states that they held one position, to stretch for flexibility you need to do more than what they tested.
    This is a incomplete study




    Warning! Too much stretching can actually make you weaker

    Prolonged stretching before exercise can actually reduce muscle strength.

    Researchers from the Department of Kinesiology at Canada's McMaster University measured muscle strength in the soleus (pronounced so-lee-us -- you'll find it at the back of your lower leg) following 30 minutes of stretching.

    The table below shows you how muscle strength changed following the stretching procedure:

    Minutes after stretching Drop in muscle strength
    Immediate - 28%
    5 minutes - 21%
    15 minutes - 13%
    30 minutes - 12%
    45 minutes - 10 %
    60 minutes - 9%

    As you can see, muscle strength dropped by almost 30% immediately following the stretch. Even one hour later, soleus had still not returned to "full strength". So does this mean you should you avoid the pre-exercise stretch altogether?


    *** They only tested the soleus, which is one muscle. You can't take a result from one muscle and make a general assumption like this. It would be better if they tested numerous muscles to see if this result held up.
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  14. #13
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    I will say one thing on this subject, the whole fascia stretching thing is bullsh*t!!! People got big before they ever thought to stretch their fascia. Fascia is just connective tissue surrounding the muscle. Guess what, it will expand with the muscle. It will in no way, shape, or form, hinder muscle growth. The guy who popularized that whole theory in the early 90s was John Parrillo, and he had a whole bunch of other bullsh*t ideas which the bbing public ate up. Things like consuming 10,000 calories a day. He said that if you eat enough, overtraining was not possible. Bullsh*t! There are other things, but suffice it to say that he was the promoter of untruths.

  15. #14
    Hmmmm..... Spiderman's Avatar
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    I'm thinking I'll come out this one time and say I agree with Chris. The part about the Fascia is correct. Hmmm...could knowledge in this area have to do with actual studying of the material??
    Last edited by Spiderman; 05-12-2001 at 09:38 PM.

    "Success is never behind you, it is always, always in front of you."

  16. #15
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    So Chris, what do you suggest stretching wise?
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  17. #16
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    chicken - stretching before exercise has never been shown to decrease the risk of injury. well when compare to doing a light warm up with the muscle groups used.
    though stretching if you want to help keep very supple eg martial arts etc than its got over advantages than people who just weight train when if it does help you get bigger/ stronger theire is not so much point in doing it.
    is there any data to prove in highly trained strength athletes that stretching is benefical before trianing.

  18. #17
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    I personally do very little stretching. I have seen studies that say it is beneficial, and others that say that it isn't. Weightlifting by itself will increase flexibility. So, I don't recommend stretching, but I also don't think that it is a negative thing.

  19. #18
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    Chris you dont reccomend stretching?

    How can weightlifting increase flexibility?

    Stretching has been showen to improve contractile strength, improve flexability and suppleness and decrease the risk of injury to your lower back, so why do you not recommend it?

  20. #19
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Chris you dont reccomend stretching?

    *** I'm assuming he is talking from experience so you may want to keep in mind that he may not stretch and feels that his level of flexibilty is normal so that it does'nt reduce his ROM in any exercises.


    How can weightlifting increase flexibility?


    *** One example is people who don't display proper flexibilty in the ankles when squatting so that their heels come off the ground. To counter this you can stretch or you can hold the position where the heels just start to come off the ground. With time you will see a increase of flexibilty.

    Stretching has been showen to improve contractile strength, improve flexability and suppleness and decrease the risk of injury to your lower back, so why do you not recommend it?

    *** Like I said above he is probally talking from his experience.
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  21. #20
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    And I am talking from mine

    Streching is a good thing

  22. #21
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    I understand that Ronan, there are never "must do's" when it comes to training, just like HIT is not the WAY to go all the time.
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  23. #22
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    I gave my personal opinion on the subject. Ronan, I have seen "studies" or reports on studies that show stretching to be both beneficial and negative, so I really don't know which is correct. Man, another dig on HIT and me, you just don't get it, I am not a HIT man, I am a Chris Mason training man. Pigeonhole, pigeonhole, pigeonhole, that is all some of you do. Too bad.

    Oh, weightlifting can increase flexibility because whenever you are contracting a muscle (or group of muscles), you are stretching the opposing muscle or muscles.

  24. #23
    Wannabebig Moron The Cobra's Avatar
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    Chris, man. I love you. You're a fun guy, a smart guy, and just an all around fun guy to post with. I would LOVE to train with you sometime. If you're ever in my area, look me up and we will bust our asses in the gym (not like that you pervs). I know we argue alot and I know we crack on each other and stuff. But I want you to know I like you, okay? You're just a pretty cool guy.

  25. #24
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Thanks, I think.

  26. #25
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Cobra said,
    Chris, man. I love you. You're a fun guy, a smart guy, and just an all around fun guy to post with. I would LOVE to train with you sometime. If you're ever in my area, look me up and we will bust our asses in the gym (not like that you pervs). I know we argue a lot and I know we crack on each other and stuff. But I want you to know I like you, okay? You're just a pretty cool guy.

    *** Oh no the guy is starting to get sappy on us
    I'm sure Chris is a great guy. I have nothing against him we just don't always agree. I'm sure he would bust my chops if we were to meet.


    Chris said,
    Man, another dig on HIT and me, you just don't get it, I am not a HIT man, I am a Chris Mason training man. Pigeonhole, pigeonhole, pigeonhole, that is all some of you do. Too bad.

    *** Chris it was not what it looked like. I just used that as a example since it is the popular way of training on this board from what I've read.
    You are Chris Mason training man and idol of many.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

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