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Thread: help - 6-8 weeks left of cutting before bulking

  1. #1
    Wannabebig Member xzioptix's Avatar
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    help - 6-8 weeks left of cutting before bulking

    Hi everyone,

    I know this is fairly long-winded and probably boring to read. But I've seen many ppl write about what they are doing, and I've seen so many ppl help them get on track.. so I had to give it a try...

    I'm currently finishing up a botched and pathetic attempt at cutting (that has been going on since Jan. of this year -- cuz I wanted to "take it slow" so that I didn't lose much muscle) .. Me and my lifting partner start bulking in September, and I'd like to be fairly cut before then..

    Here are my stats as of today:

    age - 23
    sex - male
    height - 5'10"
    weight - 158.5 lbs.
    bf % - +-10%
    kcals - 1900 per day
    no cheat days as of 2 weeks ago (used to allow 1 per week)

    train 4 days per week
    cardio 4 days per week (post-workout combo of jogging and walking for 30 mins)

    sat - chest/delts
    sun - back/hams/rear delts
    mon - bi's/tri's
    wed - quads/traps

    each muscle group gets approx. 3 exercises, 2 sets each, with a rep range of approx 6 or 8 -> 12, all to failure.

    I have school on tues and thurs, and my lifting partner is unavailable thurs and fri, so this split has been the most successful as of yet.

    This split, actually, has allowed us to get consistant strength gains (no size gains, but I blame that on the calorie deficit)

    I THINK I maintain at around 2400 cals per day.. that is based on multiplying 17 by 142.65 (my lean weight). When I raised my daily caloric intake to 2100 last month, my weight loss slowed to ALMOST a standstill, despite the fact that I train fairly intensely, do cardio 4 days a week and the fact that I am a roofer (fairly intense labor, especially in the summer).

    Out of my 1900 daily calories, I've been mostly going by a 15/35/50 fat/carb/protein ratio.

    When I don't work or lift, I usually change my carbs to 15% and my fat to 35% ... out of the assumption that I burn less carbs that day. I try to keep the fat intake primarily from mono and poly fats as opposed to saturated, of course.

    As I stated earlier, the training split we use now has been efficient at allowing us weekly strength increases. It is a fairly new program for us... (last year, when we tried to bulk for the first time, we ended up just getting really fat and not too muscular. I think it was due to my obsession with training volume and my partner's obsession with training like a powerlifter (low reps, heavy heavy weights) all put together, forcing us into a constant overtrained state.)

    But I do think something is not right.. I am starting to lose a lb a week again (like I was just before I raised my cals to 2100 per week) .. and I am getting leaner, or at least the skin on my stomach feels tighter... but I am starting to get comments that I am getting "too lean" .. and when I do look in the mirror, I do cringe when I flex. I am still lacking any type of deep cuts or definition. I do see abs, but only if I tighten them.

    I used to be bigger, before I started to cut, but I was really fat on top of all the muscle. I had a bad root canal problem midway during this cutting phase, so for a month, i couldn't eat.. that just about killed the muscle i gained from last year's bulking phase.. after the tooth was fixed, I just picked up the diet where I left off, which didn't allow me to gain the lost muscle back.. so that doesn't help my psyche, of course.

    So back to the purpose of this post.. I have 6 or so weeks until the end of summer, and want to try to see the muscle I do have.. I'd like to get cut, see my abs without flexing, get that seperation between my pecs and maybe even get the whole horseshoe look with my triceps... but I don't want to make a small muscle situation any worse.. cuz then that's just more work I have to do start september.

    After a year of blood, puke and sweat.. I'd hate to look like I don't even lift...

    attached is a pic of how I look as of this week...
    Help!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by xzioptix; 07-06-2002 at 02:59 PM.
    xzioptix

  2. #2
    Wannabebig Member xzioptix's Avatar
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    here's another one..

    I am tightening most of my body during these.. if I didn't, I'd look even more undefined.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    xzioptix

  3. #3
    Wannabebig Member xzioptix's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, here is a typical day for me, a day that I work 8 hours and lift. (copied from fitday)

    7am:
    Oatmeal 1 cup, cooked
    Milk, skim 1 cup
    Protein 1 serving

    total: 323 cals , 3g fat, 37g carbs, 35g pro

    10am:
    Tuna, canned, water (3.25 oz)
    Rice, brown, 1.25 cup
    Mayonnaise, Just 2 Good 1.5 tbs

    total: 405 cals, 5.5g fat, 44g carbs, 28.5g pro

    12:30 pm:
    Tuna, canned, water (3.25 oz)
    Rice, brown, 1.25 cup
    Mayonnaise, Just 2 Good 1.5 tbs

    total: 405 cals, 5.5g fat, 44g carbs, 28.5g pro

    3:00 pm:
    Protein 1 serving

    total: 92 cals, 1g fat, 0g carbs, 21g pro

    postworkout:
    Cell-Tech Creatine 0.5 serving
    Protein 1 serving

    total: 242 cals, 1g fat, 38g carbs, 21g pro

    7:30 pm:
    Subway chicken salad 365 12 0 64

    total: 365 cals, 12g fat, 0g carbs (well, lettuce), 64g pro

    10:00 pm:
    Protein 1 serving 92 1 0 21

    total: 92 cals, 1g fat, 0g carbs, 21g pro


    Daily total: 1924 cals, 29g fat, 164g carbs, 219g pro
    Last edited by xzioptix; 07-06-2002 at 03:25 PM.
    xzioptix

  4. #4
    Grasshoppa
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    Look pretty cut to me...but I'd up the fat intake a bit.
    Shao-LiN
    "I tried so hard and got so far, but in the end, it doesn't even matter." - Linkin Park

  5. #5
    Wannabebig Member xzioptix's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Shao-LiN
    Look pretty cut to me...but I'd up the fat intake a bit.
    Do you suggest I trade carbs for fat? Or do I increase my daily calories a bit?


    btw, thanks for the reply.. =)
    xzioptix

  6. #6
    Wannabebig Member xzioptix's Avatar
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    by the way, a little add-on to my initial post:

    my lifting partner and his wife keep telling me that if I don't stop dieting or cutting right away, I'll loose all of what I have held on to since last year and look like I don't even go to a gym..

    He's been telling me this for a few weeks now... he's a bit bigger than I am, but just started dieting maybe a month or two ago.. so that just confuses me even more....
    xzioptix

  7. #7
    Senior Member Avatar's Avatar
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    you may have dieted a bit too long. Your looking cut enough to me. Why not start a slow slow bulk phase now until you hit september. Maybe shoot for 2lb gain / month?
    "They will spend their nights dreaming of six-pack
    abs and a rock hard physique, little do they realize eventually we will reach
    our goal and they will be dreaming of the body we walk around with every
    day…only then will they understand." -- Severed Ties

    "There are 6 billion people in this world, and I'm #1." -- me

  8. #8
    Wannabebig Member xzioptix's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Avatar
    you may have dieted a bit too long. Your looking cut enough to me. Why not start a slow slow bulk phase now until you hit september. Maybe shoot for 2lb gain / month?

    My thinking has been swaying to that since last nite, actually...

    A very slow start to bulking, so that I don't start getting beach-bashful before summer is over

    How would you recommend I go about that? For a 2lb gain a month, should I shoot to get maybe 200-300 cals above maintenance (which would take me a few weeks to test out, cuz my guess is that my maint. level is 2400, but who the hell knows..)

    What do you suggest for my ratios of fat/carbs and protein? I've noticed that wannabebig recommends a 55/30/15 carbs/pro/fat split. That seems good. (last year, when my pathetic attempt of bulking was going on, I was eating 300-400 grams of protein a day) ..

    Thanks for the reply! This forum has proven to be invaluable to me.
    Last edited by xzioptix; 07-07-2002 at 11:19 AM.
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  9. #9
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    Stop dieting to lose weight . . . Time to start dieting to rebuild.

    Charge this experiment to experience, store everything you've learned and try not to repeat.

    Add 500 calories p/day. (maintenace for you may be different than what is customary. As a roofer you're expending a ton of energy, so don't worry about 17 cal p/lb. or whatever. Maint. is defined as whatever amount maintains consistency for YOU and only YOU know that. Ratios are simply guidelines.)

    Exchange all that protein (try 1/g - 1/lb. of b/w) for cleaner fat. Regardless of what some think FAT won't make you FAT. Excessive calories cause undesirable weight gain. (I'm eating almost 200g of FAT p/day and I'm LEAN)

    Personally manage your carbs.

    I don't prescribe to the 2-3g/lb. theory. Learn what works for you and act accordingly. (I eat 50g p/day leaning-out and SLOWLY increase when bulking to around 350g p/day and I weigh substancially more than yourself)

    Fuel-up (majority of your intake) in the morning, refill at lunch and again at supper. Keep 'em complex. Chances are as a roofer you'll expend everything you eat & then some. (I roofed for a summer or two in Arizona, talk about burning calories !)

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by MRJ; 07-08-2002 at 12:19 PM.
    Best Regards,

  10. #10
    Wannabebig Member xzioptix's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MRJ
    Stop dieting to lose weight . . . Time to start dieting to rebuild.

    Charge this experiment to experience, store everything you've learned and try not to repeat.

    Add 500 calories p/day. (maintenace for you may be different than what is customary. As a roofer you're expending a ton of energy, so don't worry about 17 cal p/lb. or whatever. Maint. is defined as whatever amount maintains consistency for YOU and only YOU know that. Ratios are simply guidelines.)

    Exchange all that protein (try 1/g - 1/lb. of b/w) for cleaner fat. Regardless of what some think FAT won't make you FAT. Excessive calories cause undesirable weight gain. (I'm eating almost 200g of FAT p/day and I'm LEAN)

    Personally manage your carbs.

    I don't prescribe to the 2-3g/lb. theory. Learn what works for you and act accordingly. (I eat 50g p/day leaning-out and SLOWLY increase when bulking to around 350g p/day and I weigh substancially more than yourself)

    Fuel-up (majority of your intake) in the morning, refill at lunch and again at supper. Keep 'em complex. Chances are as a roofer you'll expend everything you eat & then some. (I roofed for a summer or two in Arizona, talk about burning calories !)

    Hope this helps.
    Thank you very much for your input on my lil crisis!

    Yeah, I've decided to start bulking... I don't want to make the same mistake I made the last time I bulked, so I am going to eat clean, with 1 cheat day per week.

    I agree with your recommendation that I take in about 1gm/lb of bw of protein a day.. If I count what comes in my bread. rice, peanut butter, etc.. it'll probably go up to about +- 180... But from meats and supplements, it totals about 160gms per day.. (at least what I've been eating the last 2 days...and I don't change my diet too much once I get it going)..

    My carbs and fat were the only part that I was still unsure about how to deal with... Yes, any kind of labor is rough, and I am sure I burn alot.. but I also FEEL that I am carb-sensitive, but there is no solid proof that I am. So, as you stated, I'll work my way up slowly. I think that's the best approach. Right now, it seems that I'll reach about 200-250gms of carbs per day, depending on if I lift or not. My fat makes up the rest, which at this current caloric intake of 2450, it comes to about 60 gms .

    I'm think I'll stay at 2400+- cals a day for at least a week or so, to see how I react. The heat is relentless over here in Jersey these days, and I tend to be a bit more sluggish when it is that hot.. that's in addition to the possibility that my metabolism is a bit slower than the norm.

    I guess I'll check my BF % next week.. hopefully it doesn't increase.. I don't even want to bother with a scale because I figure I'll hold more water now with the extra amount of carbs I'm eating.

    Thanks again for your input. I'm sure I'll have more to ask in a day or two.

    btw, yesterday was my first day in the gym without my body dealing with starvation..... ! What a feeling! I've been friggin dieting for like 8-9 months I think (I know, what the HELL was wrong with me.. I guess I got head problems when it comes to how I want to make myself look)... What a difference it is doing deadlifts when you're starving and then when you have eaten... I'm talkin like 5-6 reps over what I normally increase per week.. (which mentally is nice being that my lifting buddy is taking one of the currently popular "legal sterioids" and suprisingly he's actually having phenomenal strength increases on the lines of like a bench of 240lbs 10 times, and the next week 260lbs 16 times.. I'm not kidding.. which actually makes me sick because all that crap did was make my nipples itch )

    thanks again...
    Last edited by xzioptix; 07-08-2002 at 01:45 PM.
    xzioptix

  11. #11
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    Stop comparing yourself to your buddy, you're two different people. As they say in the Army, "Be the best YOU can be".

    Diet for short periods of time, say 16 weeks or so, and never do anything drastic, small incremental changes only. Keep note of how you feel, look and respond to the change(s) and soon you'll know exactly what to do.

    Eventually, you'll not really need to do a long-term diet much, as the gains you'll make will be less of the fat variety and more of the muscle variety.

    (Incidentally, I count all protein, complete or otherwise, it all goes into the pot)

    Best of luck to you.
    Best Regards,

  12. #12
    Wannabebig Member xzioptix's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MRJ
    Stop comparing yourself to your buddy, you're two different people. As they say in the Army, "Be the best YOU can be".

    Diet for short periods of time, say 16 weeks or so, and never do anything drastic, small incremental changes only. Keep note of how you feel, look and respond to the change(s) and soon you'll know exactly what to do.

    Eventually, you'll not really need to do a long-term diet much, as the gains you'll make will be less of the fat variety and more of the muscle variety.

    (Incidentally, I count all protein, complete or otherwise, it all goes into the pot)

    Best of luck to you.
    Good advice.

    Thanks again for your help.
    xzioptix

  13. #13
    Senior Member Manveet's Avatar
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    I suggest you grab wbb routine 1 while you bulk
    "It is often said, mainly by the "no-contests", that although there is no positive evidence for the existence of God, nor is there evidence against his existence. So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thought it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

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    "Out of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best moral code, the best cathedral, the best stained glass, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one."


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  14. #14
    Wannabebig Member xzioptix's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Manveet
    I suggest you grab wbb routine 1 while you bulk
    Thanks for the suggestion.

    The routine we're using right now has actually been the best we've tried as of yet. We get consistant strength gains every week and I am sore or tender after almost every workout (and this is after we dropped our volume down, so we're always recovering by the next wkout)..

    The only thing bad is that we do bi's and tri's the day after back, but until my class ends on Aug. 8th, we have to deal with that (we started doing this 3 weeks ago when the class started.. no problems as of yet, but I can tell it will eventually become too much on my bi's)

    When progress slows and we need a new routine, the WBB I routine looks excellent. Thanks
    xzioptix

  15. #15
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    Two words: Stop Cutting. This isn't a shot at you, more of a general statement. People seem to think you should become a fat mess in a bulk which isn't the case at all. At no point in bodybuilding as a past time should you be considered "fat" because it defeats the purpose of it entirely. As far as your situation goes what are you cutting down to? Let me be honest here and say you need more size. You're at around 160 at 5'10", you're not talking about a lot of muscle man. You can tell you work out from the pics, but I don't see what you're cutting down to, how small are you trying to make yourself? Listen to your friend and stop the cutting.

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