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Thread: Great article on how to be strong AND have great endurance

  1. #1
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Great article on how to be strong AND have great endurance

    Our own Alex Viada wrote this awesome article:

    http://www.atlargenutrition.com/blog...and-be-strong/


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  2. #2
    Senior Member Judas's Avatar
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    Hmmm... Interesting.

    I have said this literally for years now... but i would LOVE to start running again. Before i started lifting (and gained 60lbs) i had some serious anaerobic cardio chops. I was never a long distance guy, but instead used to push my sprints longer and longer and longer, until at one point i was able to near-sprint 3 solid miles. I'd like to try that again. Problem is that when i started saying that my life was dedicated to lifting and recovering and not hurting myself. Years later the lifting is far more severe, and serious, i'm always nursing one injury or another, and inviting ANYTHING else into the split that courts even more injury is a disaster waiting to happen. Its hard to serve two masters. If one ov my ailments wasn't an ornery knee (not injured... but buggy) i'd be a lot more inclined to start. This also keeps me from playing around with Crossfit style stuff.

    But damn i'd love to be able to run again...
    Last edited by Judas; 11-14-2012 at 03:56 AM.

  3. #3
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    Loved the article, this is great

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    2008 World Champs! SMK41's Avatar
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    Great article. It's challenging to train for both but definitely possible. I just trained from Jan-Jun this year for my first marathon. Managed to do the marathon in a pretty respectable time (3:53) and was still able fit in three lifting days a week. I even increased my DL from 475x1 to 500x1 during this time period. ALN supplements definitely helped support the intense training and limited time for recovery. I used Nitrean, Opticen, and ETS regularly. Also cycled Results and BCAA+ for a few months each.
    Stefan
    Height: 6'4 - Weight: 235 lbs - Age: 31
    DL: 530 x 1
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  5. #5
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK41 View Post
    Great article. It's challenging to train for both but definitely possible. I just trained from Jan-Jun this year for my first marathon. Managed to do the marathon in a pretty respectable time (3:53) and was still able fit in three lifting days a week. I even increased my DL from 475x1 to 500x1 during this time period. ALN supplements definitely helped support the intense training and limited time for recovery. I used Nitrean, Opticen, and ETS regularly. Also cycled Results and BCAA+ for a few months each.
    Awesome Stefan! Hey, can I post this on our FB page?


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  6. #6
    2008 World Champs! SMK41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    Awesome Stefan! Hey, can I post this on our FB page?
    Sure, go ahead.
    Stefan
    Height: 6'4 - Weight: 235 lbs - Age: 31
    DL: 530 x 1
    Squat: 355 x 1
    Bench: 350 x 1

  7. #7
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judas View Post

    But damn i'd love to be able to run again...
    It's bizarrely addictive, isn't it?

    Thanks guys- any feedback or comments are more than welcome as well, always love to hear what people's individual experiences are with this sort of thing. And Stefan- nicely done!
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
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    Impressive.

    I used to be a runner (5K). I lifted heavy for around 4 years. I'd never have the energy to combine the two.

    I often find myself disagreeing with "the experts", but much of what you say in your article resonates with my personal experience. Not the same old regurgitated stuff (myths?) I read in most articles on the internet.

    Nice job.

    These days I run ~20 miles a week at 8 min pace. Really no track work at all. I also play pretty decent level singles tennis 2-3 times per week. My "lifting" mainly consists of doing bodyweight exercises a few times per week (pullups, dips, levers, handstand variations, etc sort of stuff). But even doing this little cardio, I really couldn't see myself lifting heavy 3 times a week. That would be really tough.
    Last edited by r2473; 11-15-2012 at 12:19 PM.

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    Alex, thank you for taking the time to write this. I'm planning on returning to a high level of aerobic fitness after I manage to get a solid foundation in strength training, so I've been wondering how to go about doing it efficiently. I'll go to your articles when that time comes, thanks again for your valuable advice.

  10. #10
    OVERCOME krazylarry's Avatar
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    Great stuff.
    You talk about eating right after doing cardio. Can you give us a ballpark figure about who much carbs and protein you take in after running?
    FOREVER
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  11. #11
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r2473 View Post

    I often find myself disagreeing with "the experts", but much of what you say in your article resonates with my personal experience. Not the same old regurgitated stuff (myths?) I read in most articles on the internet.

    Nice job.
    This I really appreciate- A lot of this entire approach was born from TRYING all the standard training protocols and techniques out there and finding they failed me miserably. Really took a back to basics approach when constructing combination workouts, and this is the result.

    csw- thanks! There might be another one coming in the series with a bit more details, so hopefully i'll get that done in the next few weeks/months.

    Larry- My general guideline is pure replenishment, since my diet's high enough in protein overall (~200 grams just from breakfast, dinner, and a midday shake), I only try to get about 10% of my post-cardio calories from protein. On a day when I know I'm going to do, say, 5 miles, I calculate approximately 160 calories per mile, which equates to about 800 calories. I focus on getting a quarter to a half of those some time before the workout during the day, and the other half either during or immediately afterwards.

    So if I can get in another 80-90 grams of carbs and ~15 grams of protein before the run sometime (e.g. a turkey sandwich), and another 80-100 grams of carbs afterwards (gatorade, gels/gus, even crackers or cow tales (which are awesome candy), that will usually take care of it. This is assuming pure performance, btw, and not looking for any weight loss whatsoever.

    Longer runs/bikes adjust accordingly- so my long brick workouts (~80 mile bikes and 5-10 mile runs) involve a pretty ridiculous feast the night before, craploads of sugar during, and a massive dinner and dessert afterwards.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
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    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.V View Post
    Longer runs/bikes adjust accordingly- so my long brick workouts (~80 mile bikes and 5-10 mile runs) involve a pretty ridiculous feast the night before, craploads of sugar during, and a massive dinner and dessert afterwards.
    I remember those days. The amount of food I used to eat weighing 150 lbs. was staggering. Far more than I eat today weighing 210 lbs.

    The hardest part of training (which for me was road running) IMO isn't the workout itself, but the recovery. If recovery if off by a little, you won't be able to do the workout. And "magic" of training is consistency. Skip a day running and your next run is pretty easy, but also far less effective. Running a smart training program (one that doesn't burn you out) day after day is hard but very effective. Running "when you feel like it / how you feel like" is easy, but all but worthless.

    The idea of adding heavy weight training to an even somewhat intensive cardio program seems really, really hard to me. Seems like you have found a good balance that works for you. Congrats!!! That doesn't seem like an easy thing to figure out to me.

    But then again, I'm nearly 40. Maybe I could have pulled it off 20 years ago (but I doubt it).

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    Looking forward to it!

  14. #14
    Senior Member Judas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r2473 View Post
    I remember those days. The amount of food I used to eat weighing 150 lbs. was staggering. Far more than I eat today weighing 210 lbs.
    I used to be a cardio-king myself. My disease was cross-country mountain biking, and in my particular case i probably spent 75% ov my miles on the road. I was 168-173lbs back then, didn't lift, and had better endurance than a T-800. I used to eat as much as 10000 calories a day, usually around 8000, and never less than 5000-6000. That was long before i learned about nutrition, training, anything useful. I just ate when i was hungry, which was all the time, and i could eat more than anyone, anywhere. I could have been champion 'eater'. Aside from as much meat as i could scrounge, it was pretty much all processed carbs, fast food and junk food. I have WAY better abs now at 231lbs than i ever had at 170, even my lowest ever weight ov 165. Crazy. Now i cant put down more than 3000-4000 calories in a day, mostly protein, and almost always GOOD quality, whole foods (and whey). It is amazing how easy it is to eat shit food...


    Incidentally, just going from a 3-4 hour powerlifting workout to a 3-4 hour olympic lifting workout i apparently burn enough more calories to lose weight. The total strain is not more, but going from 3-5 minute rest-intervals and generally splitting up the upper/lower body definitely doesn't burn the same amount ov fuel that 1-2 minute rest intervals and full body on every lift does... even if the weights are considerably lighter.
    Last edited by Judas; 11-17-2012 at 03:23 AM.

  15. #15
    2008 World Champs! SMK41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r2473 View Post
    I remember those days. The amount of food I used to eat weighing 150 lbs. was staggering. Far more than I eat today weighing 210 lbs.

    The hardest part of training (which for me was road running) IMO isn't the workout itself, but the recovery. If recovery if off by a little, you won't be able to do the workout. And "magic" of training is consistency. Skip a day running and your next run is pretty easy, but also far less effective. Running a smart training program (one that doesn't burn you out) day after day is hard but very effective. Running "when you feel like it / how you feel like" is easy, but all but worthless.

    The idea of adding heavy weight training to an even somewhat intensive cardio program seems really, really hard to me. Seems like you have found a good balance that works for you. Congrats!!! That doesn't seem like an easy thing to figure out to me.

    But then again, I'm nearly 40. Maybe I could have pulled it off 20 years ago (but I doubt it).
    The program I did was 3 lifting days, 3 running days, 1 rest day each week. Occasionally I would end up with 2 rest days a week if my body needed it or my schedule was really busy. For the running I did 2 short runs and 1 long run each week. Things are pretty managable when I'm training for a half marathon because my short runs are usually 3-6 miles and I can get into the gym the next day and still squat or DL heavy the next day no problem. The long runs would be around 6 miles at first and go up to around 12 miles, but that was just one day a week and I'd usually schedule my rest day for the day after that run.

    To make recovery easier I did the majority at my runs at a more relaxed pace (just trying to get the miles in so my body was used to it come race day) which for me was 9-10 min/mile compared to a race pace of 8-8:30/mile. Consistency is definitely key so I would always try to get my runs/workouts in as scheduled even if it meant ramping down my pace and doing some walking during the runs or leaving out some accessory work during my lifting. Sometimes I would do a 10 mile long run no problem without walking at all but then a few days later I had to do a 4 mile short run and my body wasn't feeling it. Rather than skip the run completely I'd run 1 mile, walk for 5 min, run another .5-1 miles, walk 5 min, etc just to get through it and not skip the workout. For me, this was effective and I never got to a state where I felt like I was overtrained.

    Training for the marathon was a different story. My long runs started around 10 miles and went up as high as 22 miles and the short runs started around 3 miles and got as high as 10 miles. I scaled back a lot of the accessory work I was doing at the gym, but I still focused on going heavy for my main compound lifts (I do 5/3/1).

    My wife is doing a half ironman triathlon next month (70.3 miles) and is training for a full ironman (140.6 miles) in November 2013. She has me starting to consider trying to do an ironman with her at somepoint. I still haven't wrapped my head around how I would be able to fit in 3 runs, 2 swims, 2-3 bike rides, plus 2-3 lifting sessions in a week and still get in a rest day or two. She is managing it now with lots of combo days. She'll swim in the morning and then do a long run in the afternoon. Or she'll do a short run to the gym, then lift, then do spin class at the gym to get in a bike ride. Or do a long bike ride outside and then do a quick 3 mile run immediately after.
    Stefan
    Height: 6'4 - Weight: 235 lbs - Age: 31
    DL: 530 x 1
    Squat: 355 x 1
    Bench: 350 x 1

  16. #16
    big on TONING dynamo's Avatar
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    I've gotten bored with lifting to meet the big 3 goals, and I miss running like crazy so now I have tried experimenting with this stuff lately. Its great to read something born from experience. Exactly what I've been looking for, thanks Alex.
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    consistency and intensity.

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    Alex is the man, good article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.V View Post
    It's bizarrely addictive, isn't it?

    Thanks guys- any feedback or comments are more than welcome as well, always love to hear what people's individual experiences are with this sort of thing. And Stefan- nicely done!
    I've never found running particularly addictive. What I do love about sprinting is just the enjoyment of being outside. It's great to just be outside for a little bit. Made me realize how much time I spend inside compared to when I was a kid and was outside from day till just before night. I've even started taking up Fresbe golf with my cousin just for the enjoyment of being outside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.V View Post
    This I really appreciate- A lot of this entire approach was born from TRYING all the standard training protocols and techniques out there and finding they failed me miserably. Really took a back to basics approach when constructing combination workouts, and this is the result.
    It is pretty easy to tell the guys that have "practiced what they preach" from the guys just regurgitating stuff they've read and "know" work.

    Not to say that it isn't interesting and helpful to read studies and ideas from others. But in the end, we are all "a unique study of 1". You really have to just find what works best for you and your specific situation (and of course this is ever changing and evolving).

    What worked for me 20 years ago would probably kill me now.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Jonathan E's Avatar
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    Fantastic.
    Bench: 350
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    "All people dream but not equally. Those who dream by night in the recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous ones, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible."

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