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Thread: raw westside set up ?

  1. #1
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    raw westside set up ?

    westside setup for raw bench , should it be in the same order : max effort, triceps, lats , shoulders , biceps ? for example

    after me work , db benching , higher boardpress as third movement could be a different order. chest, triceps and so on

    on speedday as assistance shoulderpress , lats and triceps . or is it importand to do the original ?
    because hitting the triceps first makes the ohp weaker ...

  2. #2
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    I think the best set up is to focus most of the session on the main lift of the day particularly on ME days. Then after the ME movement is done you would train another bench press variation that is also based on your individual weak link so that way both your max effort movement and supplementary movement will be bench press variations but emphasize your weak link in the actual bench press itself though the first will be obviously maximal and the second lift will not be but instead will be done for more reps and sets to increase training volume. Then typically the triceps would be prioritized followed by lats and shoulders etc and this would be performed in straight forward hypertrophy work. This is kind of a general guideline which changes over time as you learn what your weak areas are and what exercises work for you and which ones dont.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Jonathan E's Avatar
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    It all depends on what you're training for..but when it comes down to it you want to increase your main lifts. So the assistance work that will carry over the most have the highest priority.
    (Raw)
    Bench: 350
    Squat: 475
    Dead: 500

    "All people dream but not equally. Those who dream by night in the recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous ones, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible."

  4. #4
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xolix View Post
    westside setup for raw bench , should it be in the same order : max effort, triceps, lats , shoulders , biceps ? for example

    after me work , db benching , higher boardpress as third movement could be a different order. chest, triceps and so on

    on speedday as assistance shoulderpress , lats and triceps . or is it importand to do the original ?
    because hitting the triceps first makes the ohp weaker ...
    I'm not expert, but the way I'm doing it, and have read about doing it, is that its believed that triceps take priority in the benchpress, and then the lats, so it makes sense to hit those when they are strongest after the ME work. I dont think the goal of westside is to increase your ohp because its not a competition lift. But you could probably use it as an me rotation movement.

    But in the end, you own the workout, so do it how you want.
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  5. #5
    Super Moderator vdizenzo's Avatar
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    An article Matt Rhodes wrote on the conjugate template that got me my first 600 lb raw bench. Might be more than you are looking for, but a helpful read on setting up a raw bench program.

    Six Hundred Pounds of Raw Bench

    By
    Matt Rhodes


    In June of 2007, my training partner, Vincent Dizenzo, set an IPA World Record with a 600-lb unequipped bench press. Vincent had been chasing that number for two years. He suffered through some injuries and setbacks but finally got himself healthy and mentally focused. He put a 16-week plan down on paper and followed it to the end.

    Vincent called me one day all fired up about something. He had stayed up until 2:00 am on a school night reading EVERY Westside article he could find and had decided to add speed work back into his plan. He had also decided that he would be off the bench three weeks of every month. He figured he’d be so fired up about getting to bench when he was finally able to that he’d have a great night.

    Vincent also set a number for each exercise. When he hit it in training, he was done for the day. Even if we all knew that he had more in him and Vincent knew he had more in him, he saved it for the next time the exercise came around. He never wanted to miss a weight.

    This is Vincent’s basic template that he put together:

    Monday: DE bench

    1. Bench (3 grips) 9 X 3 at 25–70% (I’ll explain later)

    2. JM presses 3–5 X 5

    3. Standing military press 3–5 X 1–5

    4. Rows 3–5 X 5–10

    5. Biceps 3–5 sets

    Friday: ME bench

    1. ME bench, work to heavy single (I’ll list exercises later)

    2. Board press (lockout) 2–5 X 3–5

    3. Rows 3–5 X 10

    4. Rear delts 3 X 10

    5. Biceps 3–5 sets

    Saturday: Core day

    1. Squat 5 X 10

    2. Deadlift 5 X 10

    3. Shrugs 3 sets

    4. Abs 3 sets



    Speed work

    Vincent started his training cycle using 550 lbs as his best unequipped bench. He had done 575 lbs in competition and 585 lbs in the gym. He purposely set his percents low so he wouldn’t over-train or injure himself during his 16-week cycle. Vincent’s first week of DE work was performed with 135 lbs. He kept it really light so his body could get used to the new exercise and the added volume. He hadn’t benched two times per week for about eight years. When he felt “fast” with 135 lbs, he moved up to 185 lbs. Once he became comfortable with that weight, he moved to 225 lbs. He made plate/quarter jumps until he reached his final training weight of 315 lbs for four sets and 365 lbs for four sets.

    Vincent continually talked about not feeling fast and taking the weight back down until he felt fast. Then, he would move back up. The important thing to remember is that DE work is about SPEED! If you don’t feel fast, take some weight off until you do feel fast. Then, try to add a little more weight. Speed is king.



    Max effort work

    The four exercises Vincent chose are the bench, incline, floor press, and 2-board. He rotated these every week so he went through four 4-week cycles of this. There are a few alterations he made, but the spirit of his plan was always intact.

    With the bench work, he didn’t want to take 600 lbs in the gym. So he took two heavy attempts with straight weight and one attempt each with bands and chains. The floor press, 2-board, and incline were always performed using straight weight. When Vincent started his training cycle, he set his first weight that day in the gym. He had an idea of what he wanted to hit and then saw how things played out.

    On the incline, his first weight was 495 X 1. The next time around, he hit 525 X 1 and then 545 X 1. With the floor press, his first weight was 515 X 1. Then he hit 535 X 1 and 555 X 1. The 2-board was a fun exercise. I don’t remember his exact weights, but one night was a classic exercise in determination and just nutting up and lifting the weight. He worked up to 605 X 1 and missed it. His goal was to never miss a weight so he took it again. Seven attempts later, he smashed 605 lbs. He was determined to hit that number and not leave the gym with a missed weight.

    We all learned a great deal from this training cycle. Some of the key points we still follow are:
    1.Never miss weight. Set yourself up to succeed and build confidence. Go into the gym with a number in your head. Don’t go crazy and lift over your abilities. Set a number that you’re going to hit and then shut it down. It’s more important to leave a little in the bag then to cash in and burn yourself out.
    1.Have a plan. It will change but have a plan to follow.
    1.Don’t choose a million different exercises. Find the ones that work and stick with them. Don’t change for the sake of change. If you do this, you’ll never find out what works for you. Vincent chose these four exercises because he didn’t do them. He hadn’t inclined in about 10 years. He used the floor press 2–3 times in the three years I’ve trained with him. Sometimes, just doing something completely new will spark some progress.
    Last edited by vdizenzo; 12-03-2012 at 04:54 PM.


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    "The weak will never understand" - Vincent Dizenzo

  6. #6
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    Vinny,

    Why did you Stray from this? Did it stop working?
    Best raw meet lifts
    Squat:765 with wraps. / 700 raw with out wraps
    Bench: 525
    Deadlift: 755
    Total: Raw with wraps: 2000. with out wraps: 1925

    Best lifts Equipped
    1050, 840, 715. Total: 2605

    Representing AtLarge Nutrition and EliteFTS

  7. #7
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    Travis Bell has a log here. Yeah, he mostly competes shirted. However, he trains at Westside, does most of his training raw, and has a really strong raw bench. Most of their top lifters bench 500+ raw, so it obviously works. Reading his log would give you a lot of good ideas.

    http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...encher/page170
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  8. #8
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Yeah I do most of my training raw, as does the rest of the morning crew at Westside. We get in shirts about every 3-4 weeks depending on where we are at in pre meet training.

    Last time I competed raw, I did the exact same training cycle as everyone else at the morning crew and benched 550. In the near future I'd like to up that number a bit as well.


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  9. #9
    Super Moderator vdizenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottYard View Post
    Vinny,

    Why did you Stray from this? Did it stop working?
    It stopped yielding the results I wanted when I got down to the 275's. No choice but to change my approach. It was such a solid base plan and got me to 605 at shw and 600 at 308. Now I have to tweak things and really work on my shortcomings to get that 600 at 275.


    Supplements I currently take: Nitrean , BCAA , Creatine 500 , Multi-Plus , Fish Oil

    My Training Log , My Youtube Videos

    "The weak will never understand" - Vincent Dizenzo

  10. #10
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdizenzo View Post
    It stopped yielding the results I wanted when I got down to the 275's. No choice but to change my approach. It was such a solid base plan and got me to 605 at shw and 600 at 308. Now I have to tweak things and really work on my shortcomings to get that 600 at 275.
    I'm taking a complete shot in the dark here, but it could be that the normal ME movements you were getting so much out of lost their effectiveness because when your leverages changed as you dropped a lot of bodyfat, your weak points changed as well. Hence it'd be time for new ME movements that attacked said weak points.

    Just a thought though. I could certainly be wrong.


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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bell View Post
    I'm taking a complete shot in the dark here, but it could be that the normal ME movements you were getting so much out of lost their effectiveness because when your leverages changed as you dropped a lot of bodyfat, your weak points changed as well. Hence it'd be time for new ME movements that attacked said weak points.

    Just a thought though. I could certainly be wrong.
    Good point.
    Best raw meet lifts
    Squat:765 with wraps. / 700 raw with out wraps
    Bench: 525
    Deadlift: 755
    Total: Raw with wraps: 2000. with out wraps: 1925

    Best lifts Equipped
    1050, 840, 715. Total: 2605

    Representing AtLarge Nutrition and EliteFTS

  12. #12
    Super Moderator vdizenzo's Avatar
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    It is not like I strayed wildly, with the exception of one block cycle. When I moved to more top end exercises for my lagging lockout, there was no significant change. When I did train block, I was able to grind weights to lockout better. Unfortunately they were lighter weights. That said, I did not like not working with heavy weights throughout the training cycle. When I got to the heavy weights, they felt heavy in my hands. I know it sounds obvious, but when I train heavy all the time, weight does not feel heavy. The press just gets harder. If that makes sense at all.

    Anyway, Brian Holloway turned me onto this article from Mike Tuchscherer http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.c...learn-to-grind . I think most would agree my bench looks quite different than most. I felt I needed to go outside the norm to try and attain the results I want.

    I am always open to suggestions and discussion.
    Last edited by vdizenzo; 12-05-2012 at 07:20 AM.


    Supplements I currently take: Nitrean , BCAA , Creatine 500 , Multi-Plus , Fish Oil

    My Training Log , My Youtube Videos

    "The weak will never understand" - Vincent Dizenzo

  13. #13
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdizenzo View Post
    It is not like I strayed wildly, with the exception of one block cycle. When I moved to more top end exercises for my lagging lockout, there was no significant change. When I did train block, I was able to grind weights to lockout better. Unfortunately they were lighter weights. That said, I did not like not working with heavy weights throughout the training cycle. When I got to the heavy weights, they felt heavy in my hands. I know it sounds obvious, but when I train heavy all the time, weight does not feel heavy. The press just gets harder. If that makes sense at all.

    Anyway, Brian Holloway turned me onto this article from Mike Tuchscherer http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.c...learn-to-grind . I think most would agree my bench looks quite different than most. I felt I needed to go outside the norm to try and attain the results I want.

    I am always open to suggestions and discussion.

    I may have misinterpreted Scotts question. I thought he was asking why you weren't using the exact rotation (ME exercises) that you had used in the article that Matt wrote.

    I was just saying that the reason the original exercises may have changed in their level of effectiveness was because leverages changed is all.


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdizenzo View Post
    It is not like I strayed wildly, with the exception of one block cycle. When I moved to more top end exercises for my lagging lockout, there was no significant change. When I did train block, I was able to grind weights to lockout better. Unfortunately they were lighter weights. That said, I did not like not working with heavy weights throughout the training cycle. When I got to the heavy weights, they felt heavy in my hands. I know it sounds obvious, but when I train heavy all the time, weight does not feel heavy. The press just gets harder. If that makes sense at all.

    Anyway, Brian Holloway turned me onto this article from Mike Tuchscherer http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.c...learn-to-grind . I think most would agree my bench looks quite different than most. I felt I needed to go outside the norm to try and attain the results I want.

    I am always open to suggestions and discussion.
    ok, so you use a different benchmovement on the second day and work up to a 5 rm for example instead of speedbench ?
    and 3rm on the max effort day , are this the mainchanges right now in your training ? can you feel results now ?

  15. #15
    Super Moderator vdizenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xolix View Post
    ok, so you use a different benchmovement on the second day and work up to a 5 rm for example instead of speedbench ?
    and 3rm on the max effort day , are this the mainchanges right now in your training ? can you feel results now ?
    Yep, 4-6 reps on lighter day, I stuck with all floor press for various reasons. Triples on my heavy day rotating exercises weekly. As far as results I leave that up to a meet. We'll know the next time I compete.


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    My Training Log , My Youtube Videos

    "The weak will never understand" - Vincent Dizenzo

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdizenzo View Post
    Yep, 4-6 reps on lighter day, I stuck with all floor press for various reasons. Triples on my heavy day rotating exercises weekly. As far as results I leave that up to a meet. We'll know the next time I compete.
    nice, could it be bench for a 5 rm too , or is floorpressing better ?

    another q , if triples are better for grinding , is it not an good idea doing a max effort to a single and after that going down to 85 - 90 % for a triple ? one time i trained with triples on all me exercies for bench , but it was harder to hit the topweight for 3 than if i did the same weight on a downset after a 1 rm .

    and, for your changed de-day, do you use percentages or how do you pick the weight ?

  17. #17
    Senior Member Jonathan E's Avatar
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    Since we are on bench topics:

    After my 1rm ME, then 10-15% loadoff for a 3RM after: should I wait the normal 2-5min before attempting the triple or should I go straight after the 1RM
    (Raw)
    Bench: 350
    Squat: 475
    Dead: 500

    "All people dream but not equally. Those who dream by night in the recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous ones, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible."

  18. #18
    Super Moderator vdizenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xolix View Post
    nice, could it be bench for a 5 rm too , or is floorpressing better ?

    another q , if triples are better for grinding , is it not an good idea doing a max effort to a single and after that going down to 85 - 90 % for a triple ? one time i trained with triples on all me exercies for bench , but it was harder to hit the topweight for 3 than if i did the same weight on a downset after a 1 rm .

    and, for your changed de-day, do you use percentages or how do you pick the weight ?
    I think regular bench is a better idea for most. I am getting a bit old to set up and push from a bench twice a week.

    If you do a max effort for a single first, you won't be able to push the heaviest weight possible for the triple. The purpose is to learn to grind the heaviest weight possible. If it was harder to hit your top weight without the single, you have not warmed up correctly. Theoretically it does not make sense.

    Yeah, it's not really a "DE" day anymore. I don't pick weight based on percentages. I use RPE. I keep working up weight until I hit a 9-10 RPE.


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    this "grinding-article" sounds good. but i don't know if its could be too much heavy work .. westside is a proofed program for many great lifters. hmm this rts thing confuses me a lot , a lot of good articles and knowledge but its too much thinking and i don't get which program set up will work for me .

  20. #20
    Super Moderator vdizenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xolix View Post
    this "grinding-article" sounds good. but i don't know if its could be too much heavy work .. westside is a proofed program for many great lifters. hmm this rts thing confuses me a lot , a lot of good articles and knowledge but its too much thinking and i don't get which program set up will work for me .
    Actually, it's less heavy work, just more volume. The body can recover from the percentages required for reps better than it can for singles.


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    "The weak will never understand" - Vincent Dizenzo

  21. #21
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    okay, so i go with triples on ME , changing exercises every week (rotation of 4 movements) and on de day i work up to a 4-6 rm (i think doing 4 weeks bench and 4 weeks floorpress on day 2 ) . sounds good ?
    i have read in your log , you do deloads, are these workouts planed ?

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