The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #51
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    With DE work, using low weight seems to be a better fit. First, it is recommende 50-60% bar weight plus 25% accomodating resitance. So at the top you're hitting 75-95% at the top.

    For people who aren't naturally explosive or come from a background of controlled/slow rep speeds, this helps teach them to keep pushing. I see a similar analogy in tennis or any ball sport. A lot of people touch the ball and then stop at that moment and can't generate pace. But, when you touch the ball that is the time to accelerate. For me, DE work has taught me to keep driving the bar even after my "sticking" point.

    Yes, with heavy weight rep sets, you'll have to keep pushing hard but usally on the last few reps compared to the first couple reps.

    Also, I've always thought of DE day as a way to generate as much force as possible with the lowest weight possible. Generate your 1RM force with 60%. And this might be time dependent. Being able to generate this force quickly can help you drive through heavy weights. But if you don't have this skill, the speed work will teach you.

    Prior to some DE work, I used to train with the typical 2s concentric and 4s eccentric. It seemed like I'd get stuck at weights in an all or nothing fashion. Then with some DE work, I felt I was able to drive faster and better with heavy weights.


    In regards to frequenlty switching exercises, I think you have to find a happy medium between practice (making neurological adaptations to be stronger--something like Sheiko) vs. building strength with akward/different exercises. In a sense doesn't all the practice make it easier on your body to squat which will mean moving heavier weights without more muscle? But to build you need to hit other pathways and fibers that force other adaptations besides neuro. I don't think this is absolute, and I think both extremes still work both muscular and neuro.

  2. #52
    Wanna Be BIG Joe B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFabsik View Post
    With DE work, using low weight seems to be a better fit. First, it is recommende 50-60% bar weight plus 25% accomodating resitance. So at the top you're hitting 75-95% at the top.

    For people who aren't naturally explosive or come from a background of controlled/slow rep speeds, this helps teach them to keep pushing. I see a similar analogy in tennis or any ball sport. A lot of people touch the ball and then stop at that moment and can't generate pace. But, when you touch the ball that is the time to accelerate. For me, DE work has taught me to keep driving the bar even after my "sticking" point.

    Yes, with heavy weight rep sets, you'll have to keep pushing hard but usally on the last few reps compared to the first couple reps.

    Also, I've always thought of DE day as a way to generate as much force as possible with the lowest weight possible. Generate your 1RM force with 60%. And this might be time dependent. Being able to generate this force quickly can help you drive through heavy weights. But if you don't have this skill, the speed work will teach you.

    Prior to some DE work, I used to train with the typical 2s concentric and 4s eccentric. It seemed like I'd get stuck at weights in an all or nothing fashion. Then with some DE work, I felt I was able to drive faster and better with heavy weights.


    In regards to frequenlty switching exercises, I think you have to find a happy medium between practice (making neurological adaptations to be stronger--something like Sheiko) vs. building strength with akward/different exercises. In a sense doesn't all the practice make it easier on your body to squat which will mean moving heavier weights without more muscle? But to build you need to hit other pathways and fibers that force other adaptations besides neuro. I don't think this is absolute, and I think both extremes still work both muscular and neuro.
    I wanted to highlight this because I think this is what was missing in the earlier discussion of DE work. Developing force is the key to motor unit recruitment. You can develop maximal force with either a) maximal weight or b) maximal acceleration. Which basically means that you can recruit the same muscle fibers with DE work as with ME work.

    So there's more to DE work than just teaching explosiveness, and it doesn't put the same stress on your joints etc. Of course, like Rhodes said, there are also advantages to ME work over DE work, but I think that's a better argument for using both than it is for using one and not the other.

    Rhodes, I do think your point about short rest intervals turning DE work into conditioning is a great point. I hadn't really thought about that before, but it definitely makes sense to me and will be changing the way I lift. So thanks!
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  3. #53
    Senior Member larsen540's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    Adrian,

    My point with the Manning reference is that I believe in getting good at something by doing it. And, I do agree people make it more complicated than it is. Which is why I bench to get better at benching. I do all the necessary back, shoulder etc... work as well.

    As for DE work - I know it's not supposed to be conditioning. Just like jumping or sprinting, you need to rest fully in order to apply maximal force to the ground, or in this case, the barbell. If you're not rested the work will turn into conditioning work whether you want it to or not. My thoughts on this are, I wouldn't rest 90 seconds to press 85%+ with maximal force. Why would I try to exert maximal force without proper rest?

    My other huge issue with speed work and repetition is that it's only 50-60%. You can push that weight with terrible form and it's no issue. There's no cause for breakdown in form. It's just too easy. Practicing moving a light weight is not the same as moving heavy weight. Light weight will never cause your form to break down. Heavy weight will. This is the only way to learn how to strain against real weight, in my opinion.

    i do agree that those who feel they need speed work or are just plain slow could benefit from doing it. i just think it's way to light.

    I've always thought about lifting like football. It's all been done before. The best coaches take a little from here and there and it becomes their own. It's not new ideas, just a new way of putting it all together.

    At the end of the day, if you believe in what you're doing and there's some semblance of "science" involved, you'll succeed.
    I understand what you are saying and I appreciate you explaining it. I just wanted to touch on your DE comments. We are dealing with 50 to 60 percent that would be like quickly walking up 3 stairs and stopping for 90 sec if you are tired after that maybe you should incorporate some GPP in your workout..HAHAHA I dont feel that you only press 85 percent of 50 or 60 percent of your max on DE days if done within 90 sec. That sounds like a complicated math question. The thought is to have multiple sets with little rest working on explosive speed. Again I do not follow the 90 sec to a T. It is a template. Some sets may be done in 45 sec and some may be done in 120 sec. Now remember DE days is getting in repition. This is a good time for people to work on there form your right if your a jackass and dick up your form at 50 percent your likely to do it with your 90 percent. But what about this doesnt it make sense to work on your form with lighter weight than max weight. I know me personally I screw up my form 100 percent of the time when dealing with max weight. Not 50 percent. My form is dailed in when it is easy to press and I think that is likely the case with most people. Trying to learn how to fix your form with 90 percent isnt going to work people will always revert back to bad habbits to make the press eaiser.

    I understand your concept of doing something over and over to get better, and that makes a ton of sense. But Benching is much different than football or olympic lifting. I would suggest football is more like olympic lifting training. Where you do need to do it often and practice because it is a very complicated movement and you need to be precise. Now in all honesty I wish I could say the same about benching and maybe since I dont bench with my feet on the ground maybe I am missing something but really it all boils down to can you bring the bar controlled to your chest and than press it out. That is really it sure there are a few technical things to do but it isnt hard. And really if I can do what I can do with no leg drive than I just proved it isnt hard because I am not the brightest person out there.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by larsen540 View Post
    I understand what you are saying and I appreciate you explaining it. I just wanted to touch on your DE comments. We are dealing with 50 to 60 percent that would be like quickly walking up 3 stairs and stopping for 90 sec if you are tired after that maybe you should incorporate some GPP in your workout..HAHAHA I dont feel that you only press 85 percent of 50 or 60 percent of your max on DE days if done within 90 sec. That sounds like a complicated math question. The thought is to have multiple sets with little rest working on explosive speed. Again I do not follow the 90 sec to a T. It is a template. Some sets may be done in 45 sec and some may be done in 120 sec. Now remember DE days is getting in repition. This is a good time for people to work on there form your right if your a jackass and dick up your form at 50 percent your likely to do it with your 90 percent. But what about this doesnt it make sense to work on your form with lighter weight than max weight. I know me personally I screw up my form 100 percent of the time when dealing with max weight. Not 50 percent. My form is dailed in when it is easy to press and I think that is likely the case with most people. Trying to learn how to fix your form with 90 percent isnt going to work people will always revert back to bad habbits to make the press eaiser.

    I understand your concept of doing something over and over to get better, and that makes a ton of sense. But Benching is much different than football or olympic lifting. I would suggest football is more like olympic lifting training. Where you do need to do it often and practice because it is a very complicated movement and you need to be precise. Now in all honesty I wish I could say the same about benching and maybe since I dont bench with my feet on the ground maybe I am missing something but really it all boils down to can you bring the bar controlled to your chest and than press it out. That is really it sure there are a few technical things to do but it isnt hard. And really if I can do what I can do with no leg drive than I just proved it isnt hard because I am not the brightest person out there.
    I don't thinkI explainedmy 85% thing well, because it had nothing to do with math. HAHAHA! What I was saying is that 85% of my 1rm is going to teach me form much betetr than 50-6-%.

    As for DE work, I understand the whole idea of doing the work with shorter rest. however, the fact still remains that exp[losive strength cannot be built without proper rest. Despite what Louie says, you need rest to be fully explosive. if you're not rested, you will not be as explosive as you can be. Hence, it turns into conditioning work. Not conditioning like we all think, but conditioning.

    I will always go back to doing something over and over to be great at it. To be a great Math student, you study math. To be a great basketball player, you practice basketball. I get the special exercises as supplemental work. it just doesn't make sense as a ME exercise. Practice what you play.

    But, it's America and we are allowed to have different opinions. The other great thing is that progress can be made doing a variety of things. I just don't think Westside is the best way to get stronger. But, it obviously works.

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    One thing I still don't understand about westside is why they bodybuild if they're powerlifters.

    Now I know that any hypertrophy work will make you stronger, but in a video I've seen louie talks about an athlete who would be slowed down if they added some mass, and he insists that they should train their nervous system for power. Why after saying that does he have his lifters doing all kinds of bodybuilding after their main work?

    Is he training lifters different to other athletes? I must be missing something.
    The only lift I'm proud of at this point is a close stance, ass to grass zercher squat of 170kg x2 at 85kg bw. If only they held zercher squat competitions...

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJDANEXT0 View Post
    One thing I still don't understand about westside is why they bodybuild if they're powerlifters.

    Now I know that any hypertrophy work will make you stronger, but in a video I've seen louie talks about an athlete who would be slowed down if they added some mass, and he insists that they should train their nervous system for power. Why after saying that does he have his lifters doing all kinds of bodybuilding after their main work?

    Is he training lifters different to other athletes? I must be missing something.
    There is an inherent difference between the demands of running a sub 9.8 100 m dash and squatting 1100+ or benching 900+ in a multiply meet.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJDANEXT0 View Post
    One thing I still don't understand about westside is why they bodybuild if they're powerlifters.

    Now I know that any hypertrophy work will make you stronger, but in a video I've seen louie talks about an athlete who would be slowed down if they added some mass, and he insists that they should train their nervous system for power. Why after saying that does he have his lifters doing all kinds of bodybuilding after their main work?

    Is he training lifters different to other athletes? I must be missing something.
    He was referring to Crossfitters who want a low bodyweight with maximal strength so that the extra mass wouldn't hamper their ability to perform.

    He's trained a whole bunch of athletes, some who need to be lean (crossfitters, track)--hence the emphasis on neuro work instead of bodybuilding and others (football, MMA, and of course powerlifters)--and they can do more bodybuilding work depending on where they fit in their weight class.

  8. #58
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJDANEXT0 View Post
    One thing I still don't understand about westside is why they bodybuild if they're powerlifters.

    Now I know that any hypertrophy work will make you stronger, but in a video I've seen louie talks about an athlete who would be slowed down if they added some mass, and he insists that they should train their nervous system for power. Why after saying that does he have his lifters doing all kinds of bodybuilding after their main work?

    Is he training lifters different to other athletes? I must be missing something.
    You explained it yourself. He's talking to athletes.

    A lot of athletes we see are not nearly as big as your typical powerlifter. They need to build mass. Increasing the size of the muscles, to a degree, will increase their efficiency.

    If you're going to watch Louie's vids, you have to realize he's helping a lot of strength coaches around the wold develop programs so his application stuff is different from powerlifters. While the principles are the same, the application, or the specifics can vary.


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  9. #59
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Hopper View Post
    For all the cube haters...

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    HAHAHA! HAHAHA! HAHAHA! That's priceless! Great job to Brandon Lilly.

  11. #61
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    lol. Ok, that was funny.

    Though I'm still getting really bored of all this crap, with people on both sides getting defensive about technicalities. Just shut the fuck up and lift however you want.
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  12. #62
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    lol it's a discussion board bud. That's kinda the point. Nothing wrong with a little heated exchange. Just shows people believe in how they train. Nothing wrong with that.


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  13. #63
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    Travis, nah I know man. I meant more the drama that keeps getting played out on Facebook, YouTube, etc... all the back and forth that's gotten a little nasty. Not the debate here.
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  14. #64
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.V View Post
    Travis, nah I know man. I meant more the drama that keeps getting played out on Facebook, YouTube, etc... all the back and forth that's gotten a little nasty. Not the debate here.
    Oh that. haha yeah I'm usually pretty unaware of that stuff. I don't tend to pay much attention to that stuff. But you're right, it's stupid.


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