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Thread: The Matt Rhodes vs. Westside Thread

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by JK1 View Post
    I think this is a key point, and one that really is missed by many lifters. We all have a certain "rep count" that our bodies respond to best. For me it seems to be largely singles and some doubles. For someone like Rob (a raw lifter with a body shape somewhat similar to mine) it seems to be doubles and triples. For my wife (an equipt lifter, much smaller than we are) it is 3-5 reps. If she can do a single, she can almost always double it, where for me i can grind out a maximum single and that second rep may take an act of God to happen.

    In the end, maximizing the rep scheme that works best for you will lead to the best strength gains with a particular exercise. You just have to figure out what the heck it is and test it periodically to make it work.
    Your wife can do that because she's a woman and her fiber make up is diferent than men. All women are like that. We have countless female athletes that will hit 135x5 and then you add 5lbs and it smashes them. This is very common with women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopipally View Post
    I'm still a novice to Westside knowledge (compared to people here, at least). But has Westside experimented with doing ME days with sets consisting of 2-3 or even 4-5 rep maxes in rotation with the regular 1RM? So for example: The first 3-4 weeks using a 1RM for each exercise followed by 3-4 weeks of higher rep maxes with the same exercises?

    As you have stated, there are many kinds of strength so would working multiple areas ultimately help you reach a stronger overall total?
    By definition, any sets more than 1 rep are not Maximal Effort. Rep sets are very taxing and absolutely help 1rm strength. This is something you can experiment with to see if you like it.

  3. #78
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Actually I'd disagree there. You can take reps and make them max effort. The key is depending on the application and when it comes to powerlifting, singles are the most efficient way of getting stronger.


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    travis , have you ever tried a different program than conjugate ? i mean , not before you get strong at westside , i mean at your current strengthlevel. if not , why not testing some different trainingideas for 3-6 months offseasontraining for example ?

  5. #80
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xolix View Post
    travis , have you ever tried a different program than conjugate ? i mean , not before you get strong at westside , i mean at your current strengthlevel. if not , why not testing some different trainingideas for 3-6 months offseasontraining for example ?
    No. I used some other methods prior to going to Westside but they either got me injured or didn't work.

    I began at Westside in 2005. I benched about 365 raw at the time. 470 equipped. Within a year and a half I benched 620 at 220lbs bodyweight in an old denim shirt. I have consistently gone up in strength since then. My raw bench is a little over 575 right now and current PR equipped is 850.

    So my question to you would be, why should I try anything else? The method has worked extraordinarily well for me. I'm 28 years old and have a lot left to give this sport before I'm done. I haven't ever gone backwards. That's a pretty strong testament for a program.

    The saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, goes a long ways. I have the best coach in the world and the strongest teammates in the world. Westside (the gym and the program) made me what I am today. It got me this far, it makes sense it'll take me where I want to go.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    Your wife can do that because she's a woman and her fiber make up is diferent than men. All women are like that. We have countless female athletes that will hit 135x5 and then you add 5lbs and it smashes them. This is very common with women.
    So answer this question for me.. is it specifically a muscle fiber concentration issue (ie women are different then men) or is it a mental? I'm not trying to bash women in any way, but I've noticed time and again that women approach the weights with a different mental intensity then men do. That is what i've contributed to some of the different rep numbers... That and our completely opposite body shapes/muscle belly densities and limb lengths. You've seen my wife, she's a string bean. I on the other hand am more of a watermelon.

    But our mental approach is different.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bell View Post
    No. I used some other methods prior to going to Westside but they either got me injured or didn't work.

    I began at Westside in 2005. I benched about 365 raw at the time. 470 equipped. Within a year and a half I benched 620 at 220lbs bodyweight in an old denim shirt. I have consistently gone up in strength since then. My raw bench is a little over 575 right now and current PR equipped is 850.

    So my question to you would be, why should I try anything else? The method has worked extraordinarily well for me. I'm 28 years old and have a lot left to give this sport before I'm done. I haven't ever gone backwards. That's a pretty strong testament for a program.

    The saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, goes a long ways. I have the best coach in the world and the strongest teammates in the world. Westside (the gym and the program) made me what I am today. It got me this far, it makes sense it'll take me where I want to go.
    Couldn't agree more. It ain't broke, don't fix it.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by JK1 View Post
    So answer this question for me.. is it specifically a muscle fiber concentration issue (ie women are different then men) or is it a mental? I'm not trying to bash women in any way, but I've noticed time and again that women approach the weights with a different mental intensity then men do. That is what i've contributed to some of the different rep numbers... That and our completely opposite body shapes/muscle belly densities and limb lengths. You've seen my wife, she's a string bean. I on the other hand am more of a watermelon.

    But our mental approach is different.
    I would definately agree that the mental approach is part of it, for sure.

    Women tend to have more slow twitch muscles fibers (endurance). That's why they tend to go towards cardio instead of weights. Simply, their bodies are better at cardio. Men have more fast twitch fibers (speed, power). Hence, we tend to drift towards weights more often.

    But, I definately agree that the mental appraoch is different, as well.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bell View Post
    Actually I'd disagree there. You can take reps and make them max effort. The key is depending on the application and when it comes to powerlifting, singles are the most efficient way of getting stronger.
    I do agree you can do a 3rm (or whatever) and make it a maximal effort. But by definition, a max effort lift is a single. Max Effort is a lift above 90%.

    Part of the reason I like 5, 4, 3, 2rm's is because they teach me to grind and fight and hit reps in a fatigued condition. That makes singles that much easier for me, mentally. It's only one rep. Maybe it's a mental thing for me. not sure.

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    I think its a good idea to switch up your max effort reps. No more then a triple though.
    2000 or bust

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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    I do agree you can do a 3rm (or whatever) and make it a maximal effort. But by definition, a max effort lift is a single. Max Effort is a lift above 90%.

    Part of the reason I like 5, 4, 3, 2rm's is because they teach me to grind and fight and hit reps in a fatigued condition. That makes singles that much easier for me, mentally. It's only one rep. Maybe it's a mental thing for me. not sure.
    A relevant article by Tuchscherer
    http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.c...Learn-to-Grind
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    Thanks for posting that article. I was thinking the same thing while reading this.


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  13. #88
    Senior Member Jonathan E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    By definition, any sets more than 1 rep are not Maximal Effort.
    I was implying 3rm as being what you stated below, not max effort (over 90%)..but 'maximal effort' being pushed for those 3 reps haha.
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    I do agree you can do a 3rm (or whatever) and make it a maximal effort. But by definition, a max effort lift is a single. Max Effort is a lift above 90%.

    Part of the reason I like 5, 4, 3, 2rm's is because they teach me to grind and fight and hit reps in a fatigued condition. That makes singles that much easier for me, mentally. It's only one rep. Maybe it's a mental thing for me. not sure.
    Agree that max effort is anything over 90%.

    However say a guy has a 3 rep max of 300lbs, as he's working up to his 3rm the next time (the idea that he'd hit at least 305) anything 270lbs and up is 90% and over. So it's still max effort by definition.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    Your wife can do that because she's a woman and her fiber make up is diferent than men. All women are like that. We have countless female athletes that will hit 135x5 and then you add 5lbs and it smashes them. This is very common with women.
    Well, no, it isn't fiber type, it is the nervous system's ability to recruit and hormones play a large role in that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bell View Post
    Agree that max effort is anything over 90%.

    However say a guy has a 3 rep max of 300lbs, as he's working up to his 3rm the next time (the idea that he'd hit at least 305) anything 270lbs and up is 90% and over. So it's still max effort by definition.
    I absoluetly see your point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    Well, no, it isn't fiber type, it is the nervous system's ability to recruit and hormones play a large role in that.
    True, but it is absolutely fiber type. This is something we deal with on a daily basis. You can't argue that, in general, men have more fast twitch fibers than women. This leads to significant differences in the ability to express maximal strength.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    True, but it is absolutely fiber type. This is something we deal with on a daily basis. You can't argue that, in general, men have more fast twitch fibers than women. This leads to significant differences in the ability to express maximal strength.
    You're wrong. What do you mean I can't argue it? Now, resistance trained men may have converted more of their IIA fibers to be more like IIB (which is possible), but that is about it. Average men and women have a very similar fiber type makeup.

    How would you know what you deal with on a daily basis relative to fiber type? Are you taking muscle biopsies? You are taking a symptom, women being able to rep with near maxes and then failing with just a little more weight, and ascribing it to a physiological mechanism and being inaccurate in doing so.

    You can talk about training, but you should not try to discuss it from a physiological standpoint when you are clearly limited on that front in terms of knowledge.


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    Actually, you're both right depending on what data you look at. There have been studies showing higher fatigue resistance in women, though a marginally lower maximum force output over same muscle CSA. Some theories state that this is due to fiber type (and some studies show higher percentages of SO fibers in some muscles in women), others state that this is due to what Chris is mentioning- CNS optimization and preferential hypertrophy of type II fibers in men due to androgen influence (which may result in a faster depletion of energy stores for a given CSA of muscle, and therefore quicker fatigue (and relatively lesser ability to perform at a a high percentage of calculated max, regardless of ability to move submaximal weight).

    There. I've effectively added nothing to the conversation. Carry on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    You're wrong. What do you mean I can't argue it? Now, resistance trained men may have converted more of their IIA fibers to be more like IIB (which is possible), but that is about it. Average men and women have a very similar fiber type makeup.

    How would you know what you deal with on a daily basis relative to fiber type? Are you taking muscle biopsies? You are taking a symptom, women being able to rep with near maxes and then failing with just a little more weight, and ascribing it to a physiological mechanism and being inaccurate in doing so.

    You can talk about training, but you should not try to discuss it from a physiological standpoint when you are clearly limited on that front in terms of knowledge.
    ok. You obviously know everything.

    And, as I look back on this, I don't give a fuck why. I just need to know how to address it in my athletes. That's ALL that really matters, period. Fiber type, hormonal make-up - I usually save that bullshit for the pencil necks.
    Last edited by RhodeHouse; 03-14-2013 at 03:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.V View Post
    Actually, you're both right depending on what data you look at. There have been studies showing higher fatigue resistance in women, though a marginally lower maximum force output over same muscle CSA. Some theories state that this is due to fiber type (and some studies show higher percentages of SO fibers in some muscles in women), others state that this is due to what Chris is mentioning- CNS optimization and preferential hypertrophy of type II fibers in men due to androgen influence (which may result in a faster depletion of energy stores for a given CSA of muscle, and therefore quicker fatigue (and relatively lesser ability to perform at a a high percentage of calculated max, regardless of ability to move submaximal weight).

    There. I've effectively added nothing to the conversation. Carry on.
    Where are the studies showing a variance in fiber type amongst untrained men and women? The closest thing I have seen in a larger area of FT fibers, but that being accounted for by increased CSA.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    ok. You obviously know everything.

    And, as I look back on this, I don't give a fuck why. I just need to know how to address it in my athletes. That's ALL that really matters, period. Fiber type, hormonal make-up - I usually save that bullshit for the pencil necks.
    I know a bit. You shouldn't do that, you might just be a better athlete and trainer if you didn't. By the way, is Louie a pencil neck? Is Mike T. a pencil neck? Heck, are Alex or I pencil necks?

    If you choose to remain ignorant then it would behoove you to refrain from using physiology to back your ideas. You would be better off just stating the symptom, like the fact women are more fatigue resistant and tend to be able to handle just under maximal weights for reps...


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    Aren't women better equipped to handle the pain associated with longer rep sets because of being able to handle childbirth?


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    Quote Originally Posted by joey54 View Post
    Aren't women better equipped to handle the pain associated with longer rep sets because of being able to handle childbirth?
    lol. Nice!

    (Women actually have a lower pain tolerance than men, they just report similar noxious stimuli higher on the scale).

    Back to the shouting match!
    Last edited by Alex.V; 03-14-2013 at 08:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    Where are the studies showing a variance in fiber type amongst untrained men and women? The closest thing I have seen in a larger area of FT fibers, but that being accounted for by increased CSA.
    I haven't seen anything like that. The muscle fiber debate is one that simply put, has way too many variables to really be accurate. That's why I didn't say anything after the post above---you take a sedentary couch potato vs a fat office chick vs Justin Bieber and you will probably have identical muscle biopsy conformation. At the same time you take a female collegiate hammer thrower (presuming not hormonally augmented) a 100 meter sprinter, and a powerlifter and you will have similar muscle fiber biopsies. Its been proven that the body is capable of modifying muscle content (by atrophy vs hypertrophy and other mechanisms) that really comparing across activities probably isn't accurate either, unless you are good at using SAS to bullshit.

    . Neural activation may play a role---its been proven women in general have better fine motor skills, which can translate to better muscle fiber activation, depending on the skill being assessed.

    I personally am still prone to think it is mental approach more than anything. So many guys go after a weight "TO KILL IT" and they literally gass themselves on that first repetition. Women on the other hand approach things a bit more conservatively, holding that last bit back until they need it.

    As I read through this thread again, I also think you really are comparing apples and oranges with some of this. Powerlifters are concerned with one thing---one rep max. Collegiate athletes, outside of what? Shot, hammer, javalin what else? DO NOT have concern about 1 rep max. Even an offensive lineman has repeated steps coming off the lnie...The multiple rep training seems to maybe make more sense for them because their strength has to be sustained vs absolute maximal. I know that is overthinking a bit, but I am a self admitted pencil neck, and frankly if you really want to split hairs, then split them accurately.
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