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Thread: The Matt Rhodes vs. Westside Thread

  1. #101
    Senior Member Jonathan E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JK1 View Post
    As I read through this thread again, I also think you really are comparing apples and oranges with some of this. Powerlifters are concerned with one thing---one rep max. Collegiate athletes, outside of what? Shot, hammer, javalin what else? DO NOT have concern about 1 rep max. Even an offensive lineman has repeated steps coming off the lnie...The multiple rep training seems to maybe make more sense for them because their strength has to be sustained vs absolute maximal. I know that is overthinking a bit, but I am a self admitted pencil neck, and frankly if you really want to split hairs, then split them accurately.
    Although I agree with some of what you said, you need to be careful about the 'which sport requires this training' mind set. Although many sports don't necessarily have that one,big,explosive movement like your track and field examples, (although if you look close enough, you might find some instances: for example a running back coming out of the backfield) one rep max can play a huge role in training. Yes, building different types of strength such as the multiple rep system can be hugely beneficial, but that doesn't mean you should disregard one rep maxes completely. In fact, I know Louie has helped numerous football athletes improve performance with his methods. As a college football player, I think a combination of both worlds is what is serving me best.

    So when it comes down to it, it's whats working for you.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    I know a bit. You shouldn't do that, you might just be a better athlete and trainer if you didn't. By the way, is Louie a pencil neck? Is Mike T. a pencil neck? Heck, are Alex or I pencil necks?

    If you choose to remain ignorant then it would behoove you to refrain from using physiology to back your ideas. You would be better off just stating the symptom, like the fact women are more fatigue resistant and tend to be able to handle just under maximal weights for reps...
    It must be fun for you sitting on your high horse.

    The discussion was great i nthis thread. now, it's becoming a pissing contest. It's my fault for giving a fuck about what you had to say. This is where a great thread goes way down hill. Your need to be right and prove me wrong.

    You keep making supplements and I'll keep getting my contract renewed for coaching college athletes.
    Last edited by RhodeHouse; 03-15-2013 at 08:07 AM.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopipally View Post
    Although I agree with some of what you said, you need to be careful about the 'which sport requires this training' mind set. Although many sports don't necessarily have that one,big,explosive movement like your track and field examples, (although if you look close enough, you might find some instances: for example a running back coming out of the backfield) one rep max can play a huge role in training. Yes, building different types of strength such as the multiple rep system can be hugely beneficial, but that doesn't mean you should disregard one rep maxes completely. In fact, I know Louie has helped numerous football athletes improve performance with his methods. As a college football player, I think a combination of both worlds is what is serving me best.

    So when it comes down to it, it's whats working for you.
    There is no need to train a college athlete for a 1RM or use ME training. There are a bunch of reasons. Not scientific, but common sense. You have to remember that athletes are not weight lifters. Some are, but most just lift because they have to. They don't care about form. They'll break form just to get a weight. This is not something that is good because it doesn't matter how much they lift. it matters how they perform on the field. Not to mention, 1RM or ME training doesn't make much sense for an athlete at all. Nothing in the weight room is done as fast or explosively as on a field. You can use the Track idea of throwing, but nothing in the weight room can be as fast as that. Just get the kids stronger and let the coaches teach the athletes how to play.

    Too many people think they're building better footballs players etc... in the weight room and that is just not true. You build stronger, potentially faster, less injury prone athletes in the weight room. The practice field is where they are developed.

  4. #104
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Come on guys, this is a quality thread. Lets all be friendly to some extent in here haha.

    My job is solely working with athletes as well and I use the exact same principles I use for my own powerlifting and it works well. Westside is a very broad template that can be applied to a number of situations. However it does take a LOT of time and effort to teach athletes how the program works and how they can work inside it. A lot of the programs out there that are based off percentages you can punch into an excel program and bang, you have the next 12 weeks of their training. Easier? Yes. More efficient way of getting stronger? NO.

    This is waaay off topic though. It was intended on being in relation to powerlifting.


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  5. #105
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post

    Too many people think they're building better footballs players etc... in the weight room and that is just not true. You build stronger, potentially faster, less injury prone athletes in the weight room. The practice field is where they are developed.
    Even though the rest of your statement I'd technically disagree on, I would agree with this.

    Football is learned on the field. All you're doing in the weightroom is giving them the ability to perform those learned tasks with more power and speed.


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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    Too many people think they're building better footballs players etc... in the weight room and that is just not true. You build stronger, potentially faster, less injury prone athletes in the weight room. The practice field is where they are developed.
    Exactly!

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bell View Post
    Even though the rest of your statement I'd technically disagree on, I would agree with this.

    Football is learned on the field. All you're doing in the weightroom is giving them the ability to perform those learned tasks with more power and speed.
    Disagree with what?

    Athletics and powerlifting are nothing alike. I do agree that you can use the Westside template with athletes. It's basically what we do at UAlbany. We don't use singles unless we are going into a test. Then we use them the week before testing at a chosen weight based on their performance of a double the week before.

    The development of maximal strength in an athlete isn't as important as it is for a powerlifter. Nowhere in sport do you ever express a maximal effort for 1 rep. Everything in sport is a "prolonged" effort.

  8. #108
    Senior Member Jonathan E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    Too many people think they're building better footballs players etc... in the weight room and that is just not true. You build stronger, potentially faster, less injury prone athletes in the weight room. The practice field is where they are developed.
    I agree with you 200%. You misunderstood what I was trying to get at, I wasn't advocating doing 1RM work and only that, as you said, there are many reasons to train otherwise for an athlete. Not to mention a powerlifter is different from an athlete. I was just pointing out that although sports like football have complex movements, you shouldn't dismiss the idea of Westside or a variant of 1RM work completely, since that has worked for some athletes to improve overall strength, which will indirectly increase your 3 rep max total, 5 rep max total, etc in which you advocate strongly.

    Back where I'm at we follow a Westside template similar to what you said. (Doubles, Triples, only doing a true 1RM on testing days,etc.) So really, I'm on board with you for the most part here, I just didn't think it was fair to dismiss a type of training solely based on the movement of the sport.

    Now back to the topic, lol.
    Last edited by Jonathan E; 03-15-2013 at 01:58 PM.
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  9. #109
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    Disagree with what?

    Athletics and powerlifting are nothing alike. I do agree that you can use the Westside template with athletes. It's basically what we do at UAlbany. We don't use singles unless we are going into a test. Then we use them the week before testing at a chosen weight based on their performance of a double the week before.

    The development of maximal strength in an athlete isn't as important as it is for a powerlifter. Nowhere in sport do you ever express a maximal effort for 1 rep. Everything in sport is a "prolonged" effort.
    I disagree with what you're saying about sports not being max effort. Any sport where you are required to go from a stationary position to an explosive action for a short period of time is a max effort sport.

    Football is a max effort sport. Average play lasts something like 12 seconds. You are repeating an explosive movement for very short periods of time. Track and field is a max effort sport all the way up to the longer runs. Baseball is a max effort sport.

    So it stands to reason that you'd want to pick the most efficient way of building more power in their training.

    Does this mean that I use singles exclusively in my collegiate athletes and combine prep? No. What it does mean is that it absolutely has a role in our training.

    When you say that you don't use singles unless you are testing actually doesn't make much sense to me. The reason being that it's really not giving you a good indicator when you take them from reps and force them to work up to a single, their technique isn't trained for it and neither is their central nervous system. You're throwing them into something that is completely new and foreign to them.

    Just my view. Nothing personal buddy.

    This thread has gotten way off track - peace out fellas!!


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  10. #110
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    It must be fun for you sitting on your high horse.

    The discussion was great i nthis thread. now, it's becoming a pissing contest. It's my fault for giving a fuck about what you had to say. This is where a great thread goes way down hill. Your need to be right and prove me wrong.

    You keep making supplements and I'll keep getting my contract renewed for coaching college athletes.
    Lol, no, I simply corrected you and you can't handle it. You can't stand being wrong. Your ego prevents you from being able to accept being corrected. I made the comment and would not have said another word about it. You had to mouth off as usual and show your ass. That's cool, that's you, but please don't try to blame me for your issue.

    As for being a coach, there are a LOT of shitty strength coaches in college athletics. A LOT. The fact you are one on some level says ZERO about your competency. Now, you may do a great job, but simply having a job says nothing more than you have a job.


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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    Too many people think they're building better footballs players etc... in the weight room and that is just not true. You build stronger, potentially faster, less injury prone athletes in the weight room. The practice field is where they are developed.

    I totally agree with the above statement.


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  12. #112
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    Disagree with what?

    Athletics and powerlifting are nothing alike. I do agree that you can use the Westside template with athletes. It's basically what we do at UAlbany. We don't use singles unless we are going into a test. Then we use them the week before testing at a chosen weight based on their performance of a double the week before.

    The development of maximal strength in an athlete isn't as important as it is for a powerlifter. Nowhere in sport do you ever express a maximal effort for 1 rep. Everything in sport is a "prolonged" effort.
    Ok, so maximal strength has no correlation to strength expressed over a 10 sec. play in football?

    Does Westside only address maximal strength? No, it addresses, maximal strength, strength speed, speed strength, and when used with athletes starting and explosive strength.

    Guess what? Building all ends of the strength spectrum permits maximal athletic performance.


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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    There is no need to train a college athlete for a 1RM or use ME training. There are a bunch of reasons. Not scientific, but common sense. You have to remember that athletes are not weight lifters. Some are, but most just lift because they have to. They don't care about form. They'll break form just to get a weight. This is not something that is good because it doesn't matter how much they lift. it matters how they perform on the field. Not to mention, 1RM or ME training doesn't make much sense for an athlete at all. Nothing in the weight room is done as fast or explosively as on a field. You can use the Track idea of throwing, but nothing in the weight room can be as fast as that. Just get the kids stronger and let the coaches teach the athletes how to play.

    Too many people think they're building better footballs players etc... in the weight room and that is just not true. You build stronger, potentially faster, less injury prone athletes in the weight room. The practice field is where they are developed.
    Dont' misunderstand me. I'm saying an absolute all out 100%+ max doesnt' make sense to me. A set of 3 at 90% (which also is, by definition Max Effort) does make sense.

    I do agree the better football player is developed on the practice field, but the conditioning and the strength that they show in that field in many respects comes from the weight room. it is a simple fact in my mind that a stronger team will almost always beat a weaker team, no matter what the sport.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason View Post
    Ok, so maximal strength has no correlation to strength expressed over a 10 sec. play in football?

    Does Westside only address maximal strength? No, it addresses, maximal strength, strength speed, speed strength, and when used with athletes starting and explosive strength.

    Guess what? Building all ends of the strength spectrum permits maximal athletic performance.
    Chris, you bring up a key point that I, as a powerlifter often just dont' think about..thats the multiple aspects of strength. For me, I don't give a rats ass about whats what unless there is another plate on the bar (maximal strength) The fact is an athlete has to be much more concerned with aspects of strength you mentioned especially starting and explosive strength and strength speed. Those are, in my mind, very, very important for an athlete.
    Finally ELITE @ SHW..

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  15. #115
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    It was inevitable this thread would go this way from the very start, I believe travis' opening question was something about there being more of a proven method of training for powerlifters than westside haha... wow, how that escalated quickly...

    in an attempt to play devils advocate and get it back on track, there were plenty of strong dudes around before westside even existed... While it has shot to the forefront of 'powerlifting' now though does say an awful lot about the methods.

    I would like however to remind everybody in my honest opinion and im well prepared to get flamed for this being an american board... there are quite a few lifters from the eastern bloc who don't train in this manner and for me, are the strongest powerlifters on the planet. If you bring strongmen into the equation too, they laugh at 800lb deadlifts. That seems to be a marker of greatness in even multi ply lifting these days.
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  16. #116
    Westside Bencher Travis Bell's Avatar
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    No JLS this wasn't meant to be a thread about what is the greatest training method at all. Read the original post. It was because many times Matt had indicated that he didn't feel that Westside was a quality program and I just wanted to open up discussion between him and others to get good dialogue out there.

    I'm locking this thread since it's really just stalled and become so far off track from what was intended and will just continue to be fruitless.

    I appreciate Matt being willing to take on the whole thread the way he did and engage in good discussion!


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