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  1. #1
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    CARBS

    Carbs are not the enemy people. If it were as simple as just drastically reducing carbs to get lean then why don't many stay that way? Becasue what they are doing isn't sustainable long term. Yes you can drop carbs and lose fat, but guess what when you start eating them again after you have lost the fat guess what may happen, a nice big rebound effect and fat gain.

    If you want long term results you have to have a nutrition plan that serves 2 main purposes. 1) fuel the body with enough nutrients to properly function 2) Be sustainable long term. Its not just about carbs, it comes down to the right balance of macros for the INDIVIDUAL, not just one macronutrient. I have way more clients that perform better and stay leaner with a carb based diet than I do with a fat based ones (I do have some that function better with fat than carbs). Now I'm not saying you don't need fats because they are essential, you just need enough to serve the body's functions. You need enough carbs to fuel the body and spare your protein for muscle repair.

    Its all about balance. When it comes to losing fat you want to be in a relative calorie deficit, not an absolute one, and give the body scheduled re-feeds to stoke the metabolic rate

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    No-nonsense post!

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    Nice post. We need another one that fat isnt the enemy either. Theres still a huge low fat phase going around especially in the body building world. I think people forget that carbs arent essential to live but fat is.
    2000 or bust

  4. #4
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumprrp View Post
    Nice post. We need another one that fat isnt the enemy either. Theres still a huge low fat phase going around especially in the body building world. I think people forget that carbs arent essential to live but fat is.
    True, fats are essential, but at the same time low carb is the craze right now, not low fat especially in the physique competition world. Yes you need some essential fats to live, but at the same time important physiological function are better with carbs like brain function. Now obviously this is definitely dependent on the individual and how their body utilizes each macro and that needs to be assessed, but to many time carbs are made to be the enemy way more often than fats. And with all this fad diet stuff out there everyone thinks they are carb sensitive.

    If you cut out carbs, or any specific foods for that matter, your digestive enzymes weaken. So when you eat those types of foods again you experience bloating, sluggish, poor digestion, etc... and then the mentality is I'm allergic, gluten intolerant, or carb sensitive. When in fact your enzymes are just weaker and it takes a while to gradually build them back up. But that instant mentality is I can't have those foods.

    The diet mentality of a lot of people is the cause of these problems more so than the actual macronutrient. Over the hundreds of people I have coached in the last 15 years only about 20% work better with a fat based diet. Most were just mentally afraid of carbs.

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    I can attest to this. I did very well on carb backloading which is pretty much keto except for post workout. Once i started eating carbs all day i felt horrible for a couple weeks. Always dizzy, tired, etc. Ive re-adapted now and if i have a few carbless meals in the morning i feel crappy. Its interesting to see the different reactions.
    2000 or bust

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    Good info, carbs are our friends

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    Super Moderator vdizenzo's Avatar
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    I have switched back to carbs for a while. No big change. Just eating supposedly "healthy" carbs. I don't know that I feel too much different. I will go back to more of a carbless diet when my meet is over for a permanent drop to the 242's. It was just much easier for me and fit with my lifestyle.

    I think diets are like training programs. Kind of like driving to NY. There's many ways to get there. Just have to choose a route and stick to it.


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    Wannabebig Member Bulking's Avatar
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    Same goes with fat intake. Sure, it does hold more calories, but some people have a illogical fear towards it.
    Don't be afraid to drizzle some olive oil over that salad - if anything, it will benefit you as some micronutrients found in vegetables are fat soluble!
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    Allen,

    How you do approach the whole carb thing for powerlifters? I havent ate a carb based diet in years. Ive been doing keto style for quite some time. Whenever i go back to carbs i tend to keep fat a little high and gain some weight. I just cannot see eating chicken, turkey, and brown rice lol.
    2000 or bust

  10. #10
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumprrp View Post
    Allen,

    How you do approach the whole carb thing for powerlifters? I havent ate a carb based diet in years. Ive been doing keto style for quite some time. Whenever i go back to carbs i tend to keep fat a little high and gain some weight. I just cannot see eating chicken, turkey, and brown rice lol.
    IT depends on where they are currently at as far as calories, current condition, and workload. If you are going to eat a carb based diet I would not have your fat intake higher than 15-20% of your total calories. Also I usually, but not all the time, do meals with just protein & fats in a meal and pro & carbs in a meal. I don't usually combine both. Now I'm not saying to keep fat zero with carb meals, I just keep it under 10 grams and when do a pro fat meals for client it has 15-25g in a meal.

    You can have whole eggs, lean steak and beef, etc.. on a carb based diet. WHen I say carb based it just means this is where our energy source is going to come from. I have and probably never will be a keto diet fan at all, I believe carbs are too important for better performance and over body and brain function. People will argue that there is no such thing as essential carbs and there are essential fats, which is true, but that doesn't mean you should rely on fats for fuel. It just means you need to have them in your diet.

    Now there are rare occasions where someone just doesn't utilize carbs well and they function better on fat based diets, but I still never do keto, the percentage of their fats are just higher than carbs. WHen ou haven't had carbs in a while you have to gradually build them back up. For one your digestive enzymes will be weal because they haven't had to breakdown carbs so you have to giveit time to build them back up. This is also where people will say they are gluten intolerant or they just don't process carbs well when in fact its just weak enzymes causing bloating, gas, etc..

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    Thanks for the reply. I cant say i eat "low carb" because i eat them all post workout. I guess it all comes down to not being a fatass and eating within reason, lol.
    2000 or bust

  12. #12
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumprrp View Post
    Thanks for the reply. I cant say i eat "low carb" because i eat them all post workout. I guess it all comes down to not being a fatass and eating within reason, lol.
    You have to manage your total calorie intake. You would be better off balancing your carb intake over a few meals instead o all of them post-workout

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Cress View Post
    You have to manage your total calorie intake. You would be better off balancing your carb intake over a few meals instead o all of them post-workout
    I agree. Its just tough with a huge appetite.
    2000 or bust

  14. #14
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Allen- chances are some folks are doing that carb backloading crap. You know, that diet invented by the guy who spent his graduate years completely enmeshed in studying physics, and therefore having less free time to read about nutrition and biochemistry than the average hobbyist.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.V View Post
    Allen- chances are some folks are doing that carb backloading crap. You know, that diet invented by the guy who spent his graduate years completely enmeshed in studying physics, and therefore having less free time to read about nutrition and biochemistry than the average hobbyist.
    Whats up with your attitude? Myself along with three of my gym partners dropped weight classes while maintaining/gaining strength doing that backloading crap. If you took a look at the reference part of the book i think he did a bit of reading himself.

    I'm ready for some variation. Thats why i posted on here. Not to listen to you cry about backloading.
    2000 or bust

  16. #16
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumprrp View Post
    Whats up with your attitude? Myself along with three of my gym partners dropped weight classes while maintaining/gaining strength doing that backloading crap. If you took a look at the reference part of the book i think he did a bit of reading himself.

    I'm ready for some variation. Thats why i posted on here. Not to listen to you cry about backloading.
    No need to make this personal- there wasn't any attitude in my post, other than "Carb backloading is crap". That's not attitude, that's an (informed) opinion. Yes, he clearly did do reading. He also has repeatedly demonstrated that he doesn't always understand what it is he reads. In other words, the science is crap and Kiefer's a fucking blowhard. Great that it worked for you- most arranged diets do. It moderates cravings, which can help some people, but that's it- there's absolutely no magic behind the diet. Guess what? People lose weight and gain strength following any NUMBER of diets. I've done it on a diet of cheeseburgers and beer- but you don't find me writing a book about it.

    Cry about backloading? Nobody's crying, no need to get butt hurt because somebody doesn't like a program that you're on. This is the problem with this entire industry- people get so enamored of what's worked for them that they lash out the moment somebody states it's not the "best", or even "very good". ANY diet, workout plan, powerlifting program, etc. can work and return good results provided it's followed correctly. Chances are, if basic common sense rules are applied, anything done with dedication will have results that show this. What I dislike is the fact that people get snowed by references, studies, and a PhD (forget the fact that it's in a completely unrelated field, and any honest PhD will be the first to tell you that once they pick a course of study, they completely forget about becoming an expert on anything else for 6-7 years), and don't critically question the program. Allen's approach is common sense- it is NO LESS EFFECTIVE than cleverly named diet programs that follow the same "moderate your cravings" principles that IF, TKDs, etc. etc. have been doing for years.



    -edited- took a deep breath and relaxed.
    Last edited by Alex.V; 06-13-2013 at 09:59 AM.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
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  17. #17
    Super Moderator vdizenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.V View Post
    No need to make this personal- there wasn't any attitude in my post, other than "Carb backloading is crap". That's not attitude, that's an (informed) opinion. Yes, he clearly did do reading. He also has repeatedly demonstrated that he doesn't always understand what it is he reads. In other words, the science is crap and Kiefer's a fucking blowhard. Great that it worked for you- most arranged diets do. It moderates cravings, which can help some people, but that's it- there's absolutely no magic behind the diet. Guess what? People lose weight and gain strength following any NUMBER of diets. I've done it on a diet of cheeseburgers and beer- but you don't find me writing a book about it.

    Cry about backloading? Nobody's crying, no need to get butt hurt because somebody doesn't like a program that you're on. This is the problem with this entire industry- people get so enamored of what's worked for them that they lash out the moment somebody states it's not the "best", or even "very good". ANY diet, workout plan, powerlifting program, etc. can work and return good results provided it's followed correctly. Chances are, if basic common sense rules are applied, anything done with dedication will have results that show this. What I dislike is the fact that people get snowed by references, studies, and a PhD (forget the fact that it's in a completely unrelated field, and any honest PhD will be the first to tell you that once they pick a course of study, they completely forget about becoming an expert on anything else for 6-7 years), and don't critically question the program. Allen's approach is common sense- it is NO LESS EFFECTIVE than cleverly named diet programs that follow the same "moderate your cravings" principles that IF, TKDs, etc. etc. have been doing for years.



    -edited- took a deep breath and relaxed.
    Wow, for someone who says they are not crying, that sure sounded like crying.

    CBL has worked for me, then again, so did carb cycling with Shelby. So I don't think one is a magic bullet. CBL is definitely more sustainable for me. I am also interested in trying IF at some point.


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  18. #18
    Super Moderator vdizenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdizenzo View Post
    Wow, for someone who says they are not crying, that sure sounded like crying.
    After reading this over I wish I had not posted it. However, I did not want to just delete it after some may have read it. It's not going to elicit the discourse I was intending. I just think your words seemed very strong and unnecessary, but that's just my opinion.


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  19. #19
    Super Moderator vdizenzo's Avatar
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    This is a very interesting thread. A few weeks ago I added carbs back into my day. I was following carb backloading prior. I am a fan as I have had some of my best lifts on it while lifting in lower weight classes. That said, I just wanted or felt like I needed a change.

    Since then I have learned I prefer to spend the day not eating carbs/keeping them to a minimum. I don't know if I feel that much better not eating carbs during the day, or if it's just much easier for me. It simply works in my lifestyle.

    While following CBL my bloodwork was very good. That and my strength should be good indicators that it's working.

    After my meet I am planning to drop 20 lbs. I am going to try Carb Nite. Going 6 and a half days a week on low carb will certainly be much different than the 3 I would on CBL. Should be interesting. I shall keep you all posted.


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    Tried backloading, didn't like it at all. I only tried it as a mass gain diet to try to keep fat off. It didn't work, I still got just as fat as I always did in the winter gain phase at the same calorie level, except my stomach was so full at night I couldn't sleep. And my energy in the gym SUCKED hard.

    As for using it to lose fat, literally any structured diet will work. I do not believe you have to start using magic tricks until you reach a seriously lean threshold.

    I am following Alex's guidelines now based on his CHP article. That is the way any diet should be...just a basic guideline that you make adjustments from. Nothing fancy.

    http://www.completehumanperformance....se-weight.html
    Last edited by FearFactory; 06-13-2013 at 10:08 AM.

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    Listen Alex, i'm not looking for a beef. Sorry if i came across the wrong way. I agree with you, the major problem with the fitness industry is the huge amount of information, most that is crap. I'm one of those people that need to follow a plan or i blow up into a fat piece of shit that looks like ive never lifted a weight in my life, lol.
    2000 or bust

  22. #22
    Super Moderator vdizenzo's Avatar
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    Alex, I enjoyed this article http://www.completehumanperformance....se-weight.html . A very no nonsense approach. Here's a question if you don't mind. You wrote 1.5g/kg of protein is sufficient for 99% of athletes. How would one know if he or she were one of the 1%? That 1.5g/kg puts me at 197 grams. I know there are many variables to consider, but that number is so much lower than anything I have done. I would just like to hear more from you in this regard.


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  23. #23
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    No worries man- My other huge problem with the internet is tone (not Barbaccio, just tone in general getting misinterpreted). I heavily edited my response because, as I sat down and read stump's reply, I thought "He's trying to start shit", snapped, wrote something completely out of line, then progressively decided to explain myself..... eventually got a little wordy. When I think "crying", I think whining, complaining, etc.... I know my initial statement was strong (and maybe too flippant)... perhaps it's more frustration with how many of these programs are presented (as being a magic bullet).

    Stump, I wasn't trying to insult you with my initial post or in any way imply that people who follow these programs are uninformed.... quite the contrary. I was more taking a shot at the program's author, as I believe he has several large gaps in his knowledge, and he started marketing himself as an expert long before he filled these gaps.

    Appreciate you liked the article mate, yeah it is a different guideline than most people follow or hear (and honestly, I take in more than that guideline... though just because I love my steak, not because I need it). The thing to really keep in mind, though, is that with all these dietary concepts, you can't really chop and paste them together. If you find that it's easier to moderate cravings by eating the bulk of your calories at one point or another in the day, and REALLY have problems controlling cravings with frequent carb feedings (people do adapt over time to what they do or don't do), 197 grams (or 800 calories worth) of protein really might not do it- it'll probably be broken down and used for energy if that's all you're eating all day, so a higher intake (250-300) might be better. You'll probably only USE about 150 grams of that for new tissue growth, but the remainder will provide steady energy.

    There are some individuals that do buck that guideline- conditions like hyperthyroidism, athletes using large amounts of anabolics and growth peptides, individuals who may have traumatic muscle injuries they're dealing with (like large muscle tears), and those who are pre-diabetic may all benefit from higher amounts of protein- that's really the 1%.

    For most of us, though- it's usually more about actual demands of the activity than the individual. For the majority of individuals not engaged in all day activity or extended duration sport, there's really only so much tissue breakdown and new tissue synthesis that can occur in one day- provided that carbohydrate intake is high enough (and therefore, energy is being supplied by glucose/glycogen and not requiring amino acid catabolism), all 197 grams of protein are available to be used for growth. As activity levels increase, though, it's harder and harder to make sure you're getting exactly the amount of energy you need at any level of activity to keep that protein free for growth and repair, which is why a lot of these bigger guys who are training for endurance events (particularly those dudes who do long distance rucks and the like) NEED extra protein- hard to say what they're really burning out there, and the trauma to their legs is pretty intense.

    Bottom line has really always been- do what works. There's no solution out there that we haven't thought of yet, just some that work better for you than others. The article was basically saying "Bottom line, here are the facts of what you really need and don't need- anything else is 90% personal preference, and maybe 10% actual physiologically significant modification".
    Last edited by Alex.V; 06-13-2013 at 11:47 AM.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
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    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  24. #24
    Senior Member Allen Cress's Avatar
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    Good posts. One thing to realize is I mainly deal with either high end athletes and individuals looking for cosmetic change and dealing with metabolic issues(which include a mental and emotional part) so when I post is geared towards these type of individuals. But overall the biggest thing is finding a diet that is sustainable long term. Most in the industry try to overcomplicate things and this tends to sell because the more complicated something is people seem to think it works better.

    I am just trying to get some basic info out there to others to open up their eyes. In the physique industry especially there are all kinds of so called guru groups (like Bombshell) that are destroying females physically and mentally. Just because the coaches are "pro" competitors it makes it seem they know what they are doing when its the complete opposite. The diets I have been getting look very detailed to sell but in fact are so low in calories its ridiculous. I'm talking 900 cal a day on top of 5-6 days a week of cardio, 5 days training, wearing these things around their waist all the time to "shrink their waist"......It goes on and on. They also have them sogn a contract saying they can't tell anyone what they are doing as far as food or exercise or they will be sued. Give me a break. No one has the patent on foods or exercises so threatening to sue them is just basically hoping they don't tell other the extreme things they are having to do.

    I'm at a point in my career that if I am not part of the solution I'm part of the problem and my whole reason of being a coach is to educate and help others, not just make a buck off them and become popular of well known.

    Sorry for the rant, back to the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Cress View Post
    But overall the biggest thing is finding a diet that is sustainable long term. .
    Bingo. If you have to sacrifice a live chicken to Jobu just to get your macros in for that day, then that is the best diet for you.


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