The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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Thread: New Routine

  1. #1
    Push powerlifting heathj's Avatar
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    I want to get stronger in the chest which is why I am gonna try rest/pause training and also I want to continue getting stronger while I lose weight, which is why I am doing cardio 3 times per week, which corresponds to my diet.


    Day 1: Chest/Triceps/Forearms

    Chest:


    1. Incline dumbbell bench press: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8
    2. Flat dumbbell flies: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8
    3. Flat barbell bench press: Rest/Pause - 5 sets x 1 @ 95% of max, 95%, 95%, 90%, 85%

    Triceps:

    1. Decline close grip bench press: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8
    2. Triceps lat pushdowns: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8
    3. Tricep extensions: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8

    Forearms:

    1. Forearm curls: 1 set x 45
    2. Reverse curls: 1 set x 45


    Day 2: Cardio/Abs

    Cardio:

    1. Run 4-6 miles

    Abs:

    1. Ab Do-Er


    Day 3: Back/Biceps/Shoulders

    Back:

    1. DL: 3 sets x 6, 6, 6
    2. Back Rows: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8
    3. Pullups: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8
    4. Hyperextensions: 1 set x 45

    Biceps:

    1. Standing dumbbell curls: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8
    2. Incline dumbbell curls: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8
    3. Standing alternating hammer curls: 3 sets, 10, 10, 8

    Shoulders:

    1. Military Press: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8
    2. Rear Dumbbell Raises: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8
    3. Standing dumbbell shrugs: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8


    Day 4: Cardio/Forearms

    Cardio:

    1. Run 4-6 miles

    Forearms:

    1. Forearm curls: 1 set x 45
    2. Reverse curls: 1 set x 45


    Day 5: Legs/Back/Abs


    Quads:

    1. Squats: 3 sets x 6, 6, 6
    2. Leg extensions: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8

    Hamstrings:

    1. SLDL: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8
    2. Lying leg curls: 3 sets x 10, 10, 8

    Calves:

    1. Standing dumbbell calf raises: 3 sets x 15, 12, 10
    2. Seated barbell calf raises: 3 sets x 15, 12, 10

    Back:

    1. Pullups: 3 sets x 10, 8, 6

    Abs:

    1. Ab Do-Er


    Day 6:

    Cardio:

    1. Run 4-6 miles


    Day 7:

    Rest

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  3. #2
    Soon to be lean... Joe Black's Avatar
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    Hey Heath it looks fine...

    Only chins for back ??? I would take back form your leg workout and add some more volume on back...

    Also how many sets where you doing for chest b4 ? More or less ?

    Have you thought to dropping your total sets down for chest.. Its what is working for me.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    More sets for biceps and triceps than quads?

    Interesting.
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  5. #4
    Push powerlifting heathj's Avatar
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    Before I was doing two days of chest, so I want to try and lower it to one time. I still kinda want to do a four day split, but I can't think of anything else to go with shoulders if I put back/biceps on a day and shoulders and something else on another day. Also, when I do quads I blow them to bits, so the sets I do is enough

  6. #5
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    "when I do quads I blow them to bits, so the sets I do is enough"

    So why not take that logic and apply it to everything else? Or do tricep kickbacks not blow your triceps to bits?

    lol.
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  7. #6
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    If your quads get "blown to bits", you have a problem.

  8. #7
    Push powerlifting heathj's Avatar
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    Anthony, who said I never did "blow my other muscle groups to bits"? I never did. I just do less sets for quads since I am tired enough from the sets I do on squats and leg extensions.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Is it not logical to do more sets for larger muscle groups?
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  10. #9
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    This is just thinking out loud....

    At first thought, it would seem very logical. More muscle to stimulate would require more sets, right?

    Well, let's think about what stimulates muscles. In order for a muscle to contract, it has to be recruited by motor nerves. If i am not mistaken, the more muscle muscle fibers a muscle has, the more each motor nerve
    connects to. When a motor nerve is activated, it contracts all of the fibers it innervates, on an all-or-none basis.

    Using this logic, it wouldn't make a difference how large the muscle is, you would just activate more fibers becuase the motor nerve innervate more fibers during each contraction.

    Don't quote me here, I'm just offering a different standpoint. I'm sure mac will pick me apart here (please do, mac)...but it makes sense to me.
    Last edited by Cackerot69; 05-23-2001 at 04:03 PM.

  11. #10
    Senior Member flake's Avatar
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    but....

    different neurones are attatched to vastly different numbers of muscle fibres, ranging from hundreds to just a few. The more fibres attached to the neurone, the greater the stimulation required for the neurone to fire. The recruitment of motor units is graded according to the number of muscle fibres supplied by the motor neurone, with the motor units which supply only a small number of fibres being recruited first.
    So when a muscle contracts it tends to do it very efficiently, recruiting only the fibres it needs. The bigger the muscle (as far as I know anyway, please correct me if I've got this wrong, and bear in mind it's now 3:30am) the longer it will take to fatigue, and thus the more sets needed.

    I'm so gonna have to edit this tomorrow morning, my brains fried.
    half the time I have no idea what you're talking about. the other half, I'm not listening.

  12. #11
    Push powerlifting heathj's Avatar
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    Well, I don't care about your facts or ****. Mine can fatigue with 3 sets, so I do 3 sets. It's all about what your body does, not what some statistics say or anything.

  13. #12
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Flake said,
    different neurons are attatched to vastly different numbers of muscle fibres, ranging from hundreds to just a few.

    *** This is what as referred to as the enervation ratio.


    The more fibres attached to the neurone, the greater the stimulation required for the neurone to fire. The recruitment of motor units is graded according to the number of muscle fibres supplied by the motor neurone, with the motor units which supply only a small number of fibres being recruited first.


    *** Do you mean that the extent of control of a muscle depends on the number of muscle fibres within each motor unit? Muscles that function with fine percision
    have motor units with very few muscle fibres per motor unit. As opposed to large muscle groups that move with less percision which may have hundreds of fibres served by one motor neuron.

    So when a muscle contracts it tends to do it very efficiently, recruiting only the fibres it needs. The bigger the muscle (as far as I know anyway, please correct me if I've got this wrong, and bear in mind it's now 3:30am) the longer it will take to fatigue, and thus the more sets needed

    *** This is why the HIT method is not sufficient enough to use all the time. Can one set to failure stimulate more fibres than 4 sets?

    Heathj said,
    Well, I don't care about your facts or ****. Mine can fatigue with 3 sets, so I do 3 sets. It's all about what your body does, not what some statistics say or anything

    *** Tudor Bompa said this,
    "Allow science to provide direction, but let personal experience provide discretion".
    These are not stats, this is science.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  14. #13
    Push powerlifting heathj's Avatar
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    Still, if my body progresses from doing low sets and low reps, then that's what I'm gonna do, not what some science info says. On the otherhand if I was not progressing then I would take this information into account.

  15. #14
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    "This is why the HIT method is not sufficient enough to use all the time. Can one set to failure stimulate more fibres than 4 sets?"

    When a muscle fails, doesn't that mean all possible fibers have been momentarily fatigued, therefore stimulated? BTW, HIT isn't *always* 1 set to failure, as I'm sure you know. Also, what about deminishing returns?

  16. #15
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Curious about that, too. Then again, extrapolating the data, wouldn't a single, ultra-heavy, slow, FRM rep stimulate all the fibers?

    Not being smart-assed or anything, just wondering if there is truly a biologically efficient number of reps or TUT that would result in maximum stimulation while avoiding "diminishing returns"

  17. #16
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    "Curious about that, too. Then again, extrapolating the data, wouldn't a single, ultra-heavy, slow, FRM rep stimulate all the fibers?"

    That makes sense, but just by looking at a Power lifter vs a BBer we can see that's not the case. Simply put, a hard set of 8 reps delivers more growth stimulus to the muscle cells than a hard set of 3 reps because in a 3-rep set (or any low number of reps) failure may occur due to reasons other than muscle fiber fatigue and before a significant growth stimulus has been achieved. In addition, when higher reps are performed substrates such as phosphate and hydrogen ions build up in the muscles - this is thought to further stimulate muscular growth. Research has also shown that lifting heavy weights (~90% of 1RM and above) stimulates the nervous system to 'improve' its firing efficiency (among other things, the nervous system 'learns' to twitch the high threshold fibers faster), making you stronger without actually increasing muscle size.
    Last edited by Cackerot69; 05-24-2001 at 02:20 PM.

  18. #17
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Cackerot69 said,
    That makes sense, but just by looking at a Power lifter vs a BBer we can see that's not the case. Simply put, a hard set of 8 reps delivers more growth stimulus to the muscle cells than a hard set of 3 reps because in a 3-rep set (or any low number of reps) failure may occur due to reasons other than muscle fiber fatigue and before a significant growth stimulus has been achieved.
    In addition, when higher reps are performed substrates such as phosphate and hydrogen ions build up in the muscles - this is thought to further stimulate muscular growth. Research has also shown that lifting heavy weights (~90% of 1RM and above) stimulates the nervous system to 'improve' its firing efficiency (among other things, the nervous system 'learns' to twitch the high threshold fibers faster), making you stronger without actually increasing muscle size.

    *** If this were true how do you explain the marked hypertrophy of Olympic lifters?


    Cackerot69
    When a muscle fails, doesn't that mean all possible fibers have been momentarily fatigued, therefore stimulated?

    *** For each lift you won't use all the same muscle fibres. Like I asked, how can one set stimulate all the fibres when it has been shown that we can usually never stimulate 100% of the motor units? Now I'm sure you've heard of the story of the woman lifting the car up to save her son who was trapped. This is a example of the body recruiting all the muscle fibres to lift this weight. Of course they fail to tell you what happened after the lady lifted the car.
    It would also dependd on mental aspect of the lifter, it is not the muscles that fail first but the nervous system that sends a messgae saying to stop.

    BTW, HIT isn't *always* 1 set to failure, as I'm sure you know.

    *** Yes I understand that but I was referring to Mike Menzter who advocates one set to failure, other so called Hitlers don't have a set of rules they all go by.
    So you really can't say they're HIT advocates?

    Also, what about deminishing returns?

    *** Can you be more specific?
    I'm not following you, sorry.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  19. #18
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    "If this were true how do you explain the marked hypertrophy of Olympic lifters?"

    Type IIB myofibrillar hypertrophy.

    "For each lift you won't use all the same muscle fibres. Like I asked, how can one set stimulate all the fibres when it has been shown that we can usually never stimulate 100% of the motor units? Now I'm sure you've heard of the story of the woman lifting the car up to save her son who was trapped. This is a example of the body recruiting all the muscle fibres to lift this weight. Of course they fail to tell you what happened after the lady lifted the car.
    It would also dependd on mental aspect of the lifter, it is not the muscles that fail first but the nervous system that sends a messgae saying to stop."

    Notice i said: When a muscle fails, doesn't that mean all possible fibers have been momentarily fatigued, therefore stimulated?

    "Yes I understand that but I was referring to Mike Menzter who advocates one set to failure, other so called Hitlers don't have a set of rules they all go by.
    So you really can't say they're HIT advocates?"

    I agree. Mentzer is crazy.

    "Can you be more specific?
    I'm not following you, sorry."

    What i mean is that there is a certain point where your training level is optimal, and any more will either not cause any increased benefits or even hinder you. The point where any additonal work "deminishes" your "returns" (results).

  20. #19
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Muscular failure when one is weightlifting occurs when the force generated by the contraction is insufficient to lift the weight. It doesn't mean that all possible fibers have been momentarily fatigued, it just means that the level of force generated by the muscle is no longer sufficient to move the weight. A larger muscle doesn't necessarily take longer to fatigue by virtue of its size. Think of it this way, if a muscle had 1 motor unit which controls 5 muscle fibers, that would be a small muscle. This muscle would probably control something like an eyelash (this is theoretical, so don't everyone get excited). Now, the lifting of the eyelash is not a task that requires great force, but the 5 fibers certainly are not capable of generating much force. Now, lets compare that to a muscle in the leg that has 10 motor units that control 200 fibers each (remember, this is theory). Now, let's say that the fibers in the eyelash and the leg are all individually capable of generating the same amount of force (x). The eyelash fibers can generate 5x, and that is exactly what is required to lift the eyelash. The leg muscle can generate 2000x, and that is exactly what it is required to lift. So, both muscles would exhaust in the same amount of time because they are relatively being stressed the same amount, even though one is lifting much more weight than the other. This example is a greatly simplified one, its purpose it to point out that the size of the muscle may not be indicative of the amount of work required to fatigue it.

  21. #20
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Cack said,
    Type IIB myofibril hypertrophy.

    ***So there is a increase in size. You stated that there was not a increase in size.

    "Notice I said: When a muscle fails, doesn't that mean all possible fibers have been momentarily fatigued, therefore stimulated?

    ** There are other variables to take into consideration.
    Like I said what about the mental aspect? Does not that play a large role when lifting, one must be there mind and body. Another point is what is the true definition of failure? Is it when form deteriorates? or when you reach concentric failure?


    What I mean is that there is a certain point where your training level is optimal, and any more will either not cause any increased benefits or even hinder you. The point where any additional work "diminishes" your "returns" (results).

    *** There may be a "ceiling effect" but how does one know when they have reached it?
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  22. #21
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    "A larger muscle doesn't necessarily take longer to fatigue by virtue of its size. Think of it this way, if a muscle had 1 motor unit which controls 5 muscle fibers, that would be a small muscle. This muscle would probably control something like an eyelash (this is theoretical, so don't everyone get excited). Now, the lifting of the eyelash is not a task that requires great force, but the 5 fibers certainly are not capable of generating much force. Now, lets compare that to a muscle in the leg that has 10 motor units that control 200 fibers each (remember, this is theory). Now, let's say that the fibers in the eyelash and the leg are all individually capable of generating the same amount of force (x). The eyelash fibers can generate 5x, and that is exactly what is required to lift the eyelash. The leg muscle can generate 2000x, and that is exactly what it is required to lift. So, both muscles would exhaust in the same amount of time because they are relatively being stressed the same amount, even though one is lifting much more weight than the other. This example is a greatly simplified one, its purpose it to point out that the size of the muscle may not be indicative of the amount of work required to fatigue it."

    That's exactly what i was thinking, i just managed to say it with much less typing

    "So there is a increase in size. You stated that there was not a increase in size."

    Maki, read my posts more carefully. I stated: Simply put, a hard set of 8 reps delivers more growth stimulus to the muscle cells than a hard set of 3 reps because in a 3-rep set (or any low number of reps) failure may occur due to reasons other than muscle fiber fatigue and before a significant growth stimulus has been achieved.

    "There are other variables to take into consideration.
    Like I said what about the mental aspect? Does not that play a large role when lifting, one must be there mind and body. Another point is what is the true definition of failure? Is it when form deteriorates? or when you reach concentric failure?"

    Of course it would play a role, but i was refering to a time when everything else is perfect, but the muscle fails anyway. The failure I'm talking about it concentric failure.

    "There may be a "ceiling effect" but how does one know when they have reached it?"

    When gains are maximized, and training volume is minimized.

  23. #22
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Cackerot said,
    In addition, when higher reps are performed substrates such as phosphate and hydrogen ions build up in the muscles - this is thought to further stimulate muscular growth. Research has also shown that lifting heavy weights (~90% of 1RM and above) stimulates the nervous system to 'improve' its firing efficiency (among other things, the nervous system 'learns' to twitch the high threshold fibers faster), making you stronger without actually increasing muscle size.


    *** It was the last part of your statement that I was answering.

    Of course it would play a role, but i was refering to a time when everything else is perfect, but the muscle fails anyway. The failure I'm talking about it concentric failure.

    *** You are asking something that is a theoretical question. There are rarely any absolutes. You can only guess what may happen.

    When gains are maximized, and training volume is minimized.

    *** Cackerot, answer my question.... How do you know this? The answer is you don't?
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  24. #23
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    Originally posted by Maki Riddington
    *** Cackerot, answer my question.... Do you spit or swallow
    hahahahahahaha, just messing with ya

  25. #24
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    "*** It was the last part of your statement that I was answering."

    You just interpreted wrong. I was saying that heavy weights can increase strength, without increasing muscle size. Not that it's all they are capable of.

    "You are asking something that is a theoretical question. There are rarely any absolutes. You can only guess what may happen."

    Yes, i guess it was a theoretical question. It's a sensible question, though. Just answer that question from a strictly physiological standpoint.

    "Cackerot, answer my question.... How do you know this? The answer is you don't?"

    You can't really be absolutely positive that you are progressing to your maximum potential. But, the optimal training volume would be one that produces all the positive effects of weight training, while minimizing the negative effects. This would mean training at the lowest possible volume, while progressing as rapidly as possible. There may always be a "next level", but all we can work with is what we can accomplish at the time being, and try to improve on it.

  26. #25
    Moderator Adam's Avatar
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    Heath, If you use this routine for more then 3-4 weeks or so your bench will probly start getting weaker. You should not train at above 90% max for over 3 or 4 weeks or so because you will fry your nervous system. Also doing rest pause on bench can be hard on your shoulders. If you just want your bench to go up try doing some bench powerlifting training.
    Best Meet @ Lifts@181:...............Best gym lifts
    Squat...- 403..........................Squat....- 395 w/belt
    Bench...- 303..........................Bench....- 300....Paused in meet - 281
    Deadlift.- 503.....Unofficial 513...Deadlift..- 490
    Total....- 1,203...IPF Class II......All done raw, Touch'n go bench

    "Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly" Robert F. Kennedy

    "A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he gives up"

    "However beautiful the strategy you should occasionally look at the results" John Berardi

    Powerlifting Westside Style

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