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Thread: Whoah...almost died today...(a squat query)

  1. #1
    Shoulda been a meso... puny_ectomorph's Avatar
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    Whoah...almost died today...(a squat query)

    Gentlemen,

    Decided to rip out a few heavy squats today. I've been doing them fairly heavily for awhile now, although I don't feel comfortable at all underneath the bar, even with a spotter. This morning, I hit failure at the fifth rep on the fourth set...except my knee decided it didn't want to cooperate, and I lost my balance and fell to that knee. Next thing you know, I have a bar falling off my shoulder to the right, with a lot of weight heading directly for my skull. My spotter wasn't fast enough to catch it; the only reason I didn't end up in the hospital was because I literally let the bar go entirely and sprinted out of that cage (the bar missing me by inches).

    Needless to say, I had the living you-know-what scared out of me this morning, and as I am uncomfortable with squats in the first place, I've been eyeing the smith machine lately. I am wondering...can I get good development from using a smith machine, or will I be wasting my time?

    I appreciate your answers.

    -one lucky ecto

  2. #2
    Load Dem Magazines QuadzillaRF's Avatar
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    Smith Machine only has 3 uses.
    1. Calf raises
    2. Shrugs
    3. To hang your towel to dry

    Squats is one of the most important exercises in bodybuilding and the most dangerous. I fell on my knee once squatting 225. I learned from my mistake and squatted again next week. Learn the form with lighter weight and than move up once you feel comfortable. Having a good spot is a must!! If you don't do them, than I suggest leg press or hack squats, but these exercises are not as benificial as the traditional squat.
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  3. #3
    Gym ratt/Part-time pimp LAM's Avatar
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    the smith has MANY uses but back sqauts are not one of them.

    you can use the smith for:

    front squats
    calf raises
    military press
    incline bench
    decline bench
    incline close grip
    decline close grip
    shrugs
    rows

  4. #4
    Gen_chat worst nightmare
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    Originally posted by LAM
    the smith has MANY uses but back sqauts are not one of them.

    you can use the smith for:

    front squats
    calf raises
    military press
    incline bench
    decline bench
    incline close grip
    decline close grip
    shrugs
    rows
    Using that overrated piece of crap they call smith machine to do anything but what Quadzilla mentioned might result in injury in the long run. Due to it's artifcial fixed path it stresses your joints always in the same manner leading to repetitive stress sindrome.

    I suggest reading this article and staying away from it, it's the devil.

    http://www.paulchekseminars.com/articles.cfm?select=27

    Use your brains, i squat with no squat rack, taking the bar off an incline bench and never had a problem
    Last edited by restless; 08-24-2002 at 04:05 AM.

  5. #5
    Bring it. DaCypher's Avatar
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    puny,
    Why didn't you have the pins setup in the rack?

    Doing smith machine squats isn't a waste of time (its better than no squats, IMO). However, I would recommend you still stick with good old barbell squats. If you do decide to go with smith machine squats, make sure you put your feet out a little in front of you, otherwise you'll get some nast shearing forces on your knees. Good luck...
    Obstacles are what you see when you take your mind off the goal.
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  6. #6
    Super Member II zwarrior99's Avatar
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    Ya I am with Dacypher on this one. doing it on the smith is better than not doing them at all.
    Cutting Cycle 02/04'

  7. #7
    Wannabebig Member
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    If you use the cage and set the pins. when you fail, you just drop the weight and know that you are safe. fear makes you do stupid stuff, if you stay calm and know that the safety pins are set, you can lower yourself to the deepest position and just let the weight rest on the pins. If in the smith cage, just do the same.
    Always stay in control and know that you are safe if you fail on a rep with the pins set at your lowest position.

  8. #8
    mass magnet ccwgriff's Avatar
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    You may want to try and work out with lighter weights for awhile, it will help you relearn some of the mechanics of the lift and be able to perform it more safely. I always do at least two light warm up sets to get my body used to the motion. Just a suggestion.

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    Beware of Attack Ferrets
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    I'd just use a cage and set the safety bars fairly high, that and a spotter would be the safest way to go.

  10. #10
    Rory Parker Behemoth's Avatar
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    Why would the smith machine be okay for front squats but not for back squats?
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  11. #11
    Trying to figure this out JohnCollins's Avatar
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    The smith machine is fine for squats of all kinds. For sure, you will get a "better" workout doing barbell squats, so use those pins in the rack! However you will get a "good" workout in the smith, the differences are much more minor than most folks here would have you believe.

    If you use the smith machine don't put your feet too far forward. I've done squats both ways, and if you are using proper form (sitting back, keeping your knees behind your toes), there are no "unnatural shearing forces on the knees". That's one of those things that becomes "true" by being repeated over and over again on the Internet. There are a lot of people who post their opinion on the knee issues, but there is not ONE study by any university or trainer certifying agency which indicates any knee issues. Personally, I put my feet so the vertical rails on the smith machine fall between my ankle bone and my heel and I squat just the same as I do with a free barbell in a cage.

    Most of the time when I see people squatting in a cage they ignore the pins leaving them wherever they happen to be. You can adjust the pins usually to about 2.5 or 3 inch increments, and you should have them in the first hole below the one you'd knock on at your deepest squat. Then you don't need a spotter. That's the purpose of the rack, so you don't need a spotter. What are the 2 of you doing in that rack, hmmmmmmm?
    "Only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe." --Albert Einstein

    Had a good workout on my liver yesterday. Did a pretty high number of reps, but not to complete failure. Liver DOMS today is kinda bad...it has even reached my head! -- ElPietro

    "If I ever found a chick who smelled like gun powder and spent cartridges, I'd run to a jewelry store, rob it, and propose to her with a sack of diamonds. " --Budiak

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  12. #12
    Gen_chat worst nightmare
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    Originally posted by JohnCollins

    There are a lot of people who post their opinion on the knee issues, but there is not ONE study by any university or trainer certifying agency which indicates any knee issues.

    Well, do this, try to get me a study proving gravity exists. There's none probably but we all know it does.

    The smith machine or anything that forces your body to move a heavy load under a fixed path will cause injury in the long run.

    Show me the studies showing it's safe for your knees.

    Empirical evidence counts also you know? There's no such thing as proper squat form in the smith. If you look carefully at someone squating with proper form with a free barbell you'll see there's no way the bar will be able to move like that on the smith. Read the link i posted somewere on this thread.
    Last edited by restless; 08-24-2002 at 04:29 PM.

  13. #13
    ...cuz I ain't very big stickman's Avatar
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    well, if you don't want to use the bar in the cage, and you're not sure about using the smith machine, you can always do what I do and do dumbell squats.

  14. #14
    Trying to figure this out JohnCollins's Avatar
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    Originally posted by restless


    Well, do this, try to get me a study proving gravity exists. There's none probably but we all know it does. . . .

    Show me the studies showing it's safe for your knees.

    You're taking the position that your premise is true until proven wrong. I don't think you can assume that position. The smith machine, and other exercise machines have been around for decades and no organization (to my knowledge) of high repute in the exercise field, not the NCSA, ACSM, not ACE, no university, etcetera, have issued any study saying these machines are unsafe. Note that I said "organization" as in sports medicine or school, not a business organization with an agenda to push.

    There are lots of HIGHLY OPINIONATED INDIVIDUALS like the Chek fellow you quote (with a business agenda to push), who write long winded and loud articles claiming that not allowing the body to "follow its natural path" causes problems. They pack these with all kinds of neat diagrams and mathematical equations, but the sources they quote are usually their own articles (your guy Chek really likes quoting his own articles!), or they are quoting something out of a real research piece, but the quote, while perhaps true, doesn't really support their claim that the machines are dangerous. The quotes are usually irrelevant to the argument being made.

    Originally posted by restless


    Empirical evidence counts also you know? There's no such thing as proper squat form in the smith. If you look carefully at someone squating with proper form with a free barbell you'll see there's no way the bar will be able to move like that on the smith. Read the link i posted somewere on this thread.
    The fact that a free barbell moves differently than a bar in a smith machine is true. I don't need to "look carefully" to know that. It just doesn't prove your point that smith machines are bad. Why don't you read this link?

    http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/SmithSquat1.html

    In all the articles I've read on the dangers of smith machines (I've read plenty), the ones that posit it is dangerous end up stating the fact more or less as tautological (the restricted movement path in the smith machine is dangerous because the movement path is restricted), they don't really make a supportable argument reasoning their way to their conclusion.

    With the smith machine having been around for thirty years or so, and with all the physicaly therapy and sports medicine graduate theses done since then, I submit that until the NCSA or ACSM come out with a study about this supposed higher incidence of problems with the smith machine, you guys ought to give it a rest. I've not seen the "empirical evidence" of ruined knees from smith machines. Or do your own real study, with lots of subjects tracked over several years of training. Honestly, for all the sturm und drang generated by smith machine posts on boards like this, you'd think there would be thousands of crippled athletes out there who's lives were ruined by smith machines! If there were the slightest amount of empirical evidence, the f***ing lawyers would start a class action suit against the exercise equipment makers!

    I suspect that the drivel which is continuously repeated around boards like this about shear forces on the knees came from this article by Dr. Hatfield. I also hear folks quoting Dr. Hatfield as being anti-smith machine. Here's what Dr. Hatfield says about smith machines (which, I think, should be more helpful if we want to know what Dr. Hatfield said. . .if you know what I mean).

    from link: http://www.sover.net/~timw/squat2.htm

    "Smith Machine Squats: Assuming that the machine is bolted to the floor (most are not) and has a safety device (most do not), it’s a pretty safe alternative to conventional or safety squats. since he same technique rules apply to Smith squats as apply to safety squats. The effect is derived from the fact that you’re actually “leaning” against the bar, thereby minimizing shear forces in the lower back. However, shear on the knees is still considerable. Beware!"

    I think most folks for whom English is NOT a second language would interperet his comment as saying the smith machine does not increase shear forces on the knees relative to barbell squats, it's still the same--it makes no difference, so watch your knee travel. It does NOT say shear forces are higher in a smith machine, which is what you see repeated all over the Internet and being attributed to Dr. Hatfield. Interestingly, my main point about smith machines has nothing to do with knees, but backs, and Dr. Hatfield recognizes that's where the true differences lie. Having done the sqaut both ways and having had in-depth discussions with my chiropractor (who also runs a gym and physical therapy operation and is a lifter) is that the back is much more protected in a smith machine. He says most chiropractors recommend squatting be done in a smith machine. That doesn't make a power cage "unsafe", I'm not arguing that. It does make the smith machine safer than a cage FOR THE LOWER BACK.

    In a cage looking at the lifter from the front the bar can twist such that the right side gets higher/lower than the left side. Looking from the side, the lifter can lean too far forward or back, and looking from the top the bar can twist like the hands of a clock. All that is eliminated in the smith machine. You can hurt your back in a smith machine, by the way, but the probability of it (the risk of it, if you will) is greatly reduced.

    You CAN cause your own knee shear force problems by putting your feet too far forward in a smith machine, but this is operator error. Dr. Hatfield says the technique should be the same. The starter of this thread had an operator error problem, too. He needs to learn how to use a power cage. Neither machines or cages can eliminate operator error, but that doesn't make either of them bad devices. If you use proper form in both the cage and the smith, both are relatively safe. (Please don't repeat your comment you can't have proper form in a smith machine because it doesn't move right -- most anti-smith machine posters don't understand how to formulate an argument, so they keep repeating their earlier points louder and louder, like smith machine people are too stupid to understand them.) If you don't have good form, the squat can be a dangerous exercise either way.

    Here are the issues, IMHO. For BBers, the free barbell squat is better than a smith machine squat for greater muscle recruitment and hypertrophy and it is a relatively safe exercise if done properly in a power cage with the pins set high enough (which seems to rarely be the case at least from my personal observation). That doesn't mean the smith machine stinks (most machine bashers are remarkably two-dimensional in their thinking, everything is black and white, no shades of gray). You can gas your legs pretty good and work up a good wind in a smith machine. But the smith machine will be less effective because the balance factor is taken away. The smith machine is somewhat safer for the lower back and is probably very much indicated for anyone with a history of lower back problems. That's all. These differences are a lot less significant than you anti-machine folks make them out to be and what really irks me is your attitude that the power cage is "DA BOMB" and a smith machine is a POS. They are just different. One is better in some respects and the other is better in other respects and you should look at the differences and make your choice. And not assume everyone else should make the same! I've squatted both ways and felt the difference. I know the cage is more "effective". I've gone back to the smith machine because my lower back history indicates it would be a good idea.

    I hate taking this tone, but it seems most anti-smith machine posters, like Restless, take this condescending "Everybody knows this is true, so why are smith machine users so stupid?" kind of attitude which is really irritating. Restless, I read your link, all of it. Read my first link and see if you can explain why there are not a lot of smith machine squatters with bad knees from it.

    Maki, you're studying to be a trainer or therapist, aren't you? Can you shed some intelligent light on this subject? Thanks much.

    JC
    "Only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe." --Albert Einstein

    Had a good workout on my liver yesterday. Did a pretty high number of reps, but not to complete failure. Liver DOMS today is kinda bad...it has even reached my head! -- ElPietro

    "If I ever found a chick who smelled like gun powder and spent cartridges, I'd run to a jewelry store, rob it, and propose to her with a sack of diamonds. " --Budiak

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  15. #15
    Gen_chat worst nightmare
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    Well, read the article, didn't change my mind. Granted. i'm not at all open minded on this subject, so there's litle point in continuing with this discussion.

    I've used the smith before to squat and curiously i developed a lower back injury which healed and never came back since i started free barbell squats.

    Also, i squat with no squat rack, no safety pins, no belt, just the bar and an inclinebench from were i take the bar.

    My stand is still the same, for small ROM moves like calf raises and shrugs it's OK, for the rest there's no point in using it. You'll just be taking a bunch of muscles from the equation and what's the benefit of that?

    Out of curiosity, how did you know English is my second language? Does it show that much?

  16. #16
    Trying to figure this out JohnCollins's Avatar
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    Yikes, no! I had no idea English was your second language, and no offense intended!!!!

    It's just that I read a lot of folks quoting Dr. Hatfield on the smith machine "increasing the shear forces on the knee" and I don't think that's what he's saying at all. I never would have know English was your second language, honest, and I apologize if that's what you were thinking I was driving at. I would never do that.

    Glad to hear you say you are closed-minded, at least you're honest, and I appreciate that.

    I also know you can hurt your back in a smith machine, that's true. I do think it's harder to do so than in a cage, that's all. To sum up I think I'd make just these points.

    1) Cage w/free barbell is more "effective" exercise
    2) Smith machine, while less "effective" is not worthless...it's still good exercise
    3) Knee issues are identical in either PROVIDED one does not improperly place feet in smith machine
    4) Risk of lower back injury in smith is slightly less (not eliminated) than with cage

    If you are a BBer with a great back and good form, go for the cage. If you have had a history of lower back problems, you might consider the smith machine. I also think the smith machine is a great "beginners tool" and one can progress to barbell squats from it, like I did, although if a beginner has the luxury of a good training partner or trainer, then it certainly is not necessary to go this way. That's all.

    I hope you see I'm not "anti-cage" or "pro-smith". I just get tired of cagers saying the power cage plans came down from the mount with Moses and the smith machine is the creation of the devil. What's that sound Tryska makes?? Pfffffft to that.

    Again, I apologize if you thought I was making any comments about your writing.

    JC
    "Only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe." --Albert Einstein

    Had a good workout on my liver yesterday. Did a pretty high number of reps, but not to complete failure. Liver DOMS today is kinda bad...it has even reached my head! -- ElPietro

    "If I ever found a chick who smelled like gun powder and spent cartridges, I'd run to a jewelry store, rob it, and propose to her with a sack of diamonds. " --Budiak

    "I dance like a drunken white boy. I'm really screwed since I quit drinking." -- PowerManDL

  17. #17
    Gen_chat worst nightmare
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    Originally posted by JohnCollins
    [B]c



    Yikes, no! I had no idea English was your second language, and no offense intended!!!!
    None taken.

    Glad to hear you say you are closed-minded, at least you're honest, and I appreciate that.
    On this subject, John, on this subject...

    I hope you see I'm not "anti-cage" or "pro-smith". I just get tired of cagers saying the power cage plans came down from the mount with Moses and the smith machine is the creation of the devil. What's that sound Tryska makes?? Pfffffft to that.
    I'm shure if hell exists it has a gym full of smith's and plenty of other fixed path machines.



    3) Knee issues are identical in either PROVIDED one does not improperly place feet in smith machine
    Actually, i remembered one argument that might be of relevance here. Doesn't the fact that the smith almost completely removes hams from the equation somehow impairs that stability of the knees? Can't remember were this one came from, but i think it was from someone quite respected in the industry. Toughts?
    Last edited by restless; 08-25-2002 at 08:17 AM.

  18. #18
    Trying to figure this out JohnCollins's Avatar
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    Originally posted by restless


    I'm shure if hell exists it has a gym full of smith's and plenty of other fixed path machines.

    LOL! Now that's funny. See, I'm an opinionated SOB, but I do have a sense of humor.

    I'm hoping Maki weighs in here, because I know he is actually studying this stuff.

    JC
    "Only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe." --Albert Einstein

    Had a good workout on my liver yesterday. Did a pretty high number of reps, but not to complete failure. Liver DOMS today is kinda bad...it has even reached my head! -- ElPietro

    "If I ever found a chick who smelled like gun powder and spent cartridges, I'd run to a jewelry store, rob it, and propose to her with a sack of diamonds. " --Budiak

    "I dance like a drunken white boy. I'm really screwed since I quit drinking." -- PowerManDL

  19. #19
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by restless


    Well, do this, try to get me a study proving gravity exists. There's none probably but we all know it does.

    The smith machine or anything that forces your body to move a heavy load under a fixed path will cause injury in the long run.

    *** On one hand you ask for evidence to prove gravity exists even though it's a widely accepted scientific fact. Then you go on to state that injury will occur if you use this machine in the long run because of the "unatural" path it takes with the body.

    So, it seems that you are questioning a scientific law but making an assumtion based on your own logic?

    I would take a look at your argument and rethink it.
    A lot of the time, peoples logic coupled with a poor understanding of the biomechanics of the body end up with misinformation being spread. As John Collins said, it is simply a myth that was probably started by either by someone wanting to make some money in the industry or some yahoo.

    Btw, explain what an "unatural" path is? Since our bodies move in multiple planes, and thousands of different movement patterns every day?Maybe because it "feels" bad? I do understand that if an exercise feels uncomfortable it is suggested to either modify it or move on to another exercise. But don't fall into believing that because something is "unatural" it is bad for the body. The body is an adaptive system and if done properly and wisely you will not see any injury.

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    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

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  20. #20
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by restless


    Using that overrated piece of crap they call smith machine to do anything but what Quadzilla mentioned might result in injury in the long run. Due to it's artifcial fixed path it stresses your joints always in the same manner leading to repetitive stress syndrome.

    I suggest reading this article and staying away from it, it's the devil.

    http://www.paulchekseminars.com/articles.cfm?select=27

    Use your brains, i squat with no squat rack, taking the bar off an incline bench and never had a problem
    *** I would suggest that you do some research on this expert. He has had many of his article critiqued over the internet by people who are light years ahead of him in experience and in knowledge. This one was shown to be flawed in many different areas. Note, that Paul Chek uses athletes as his examples. As bodybuilders, we use many exercises throughout our lifetime, not just one. So his analogy can be used on any exercise not just one that only fixes us in one plane. Remember, we're talking about bodybuilders, not athletes. We're fascinated with muscle growth, lots of it. Not nessicarily function. Of course, most people are lead to believe that bodybuilders are nonfunctional people who are slow, and tight because of this pattern overload.

    "Due to it's artifcial fixed path it stresses your joints always in the same manner leading to repetitive stress syndrome."

    *** I don't see what's wrong with stressing our joints, most of the time our joints are being put under enormous amount of stress in our workouts. To state that it places the same stress on the joint everytime is nonsense. It's not like the smith machine or any machine leaves you locked into a movement so that you can't move your body. Only then could I see it being a problem. Machines still allow for some movement which allows for the joints to be moveable to a certain degree. So this repetitive stress syndrome would occur over a very, and I do mean very long time. As I alluded to in my above post, be careful with any exercise and use it wisely.

    Anyways, my post doesn't pale in comparison to John Collins. He put together a well thought out argument and I would listen to what he has to say.
    Last edited by Maki Riddington; 08-25-2002 at 12:44 PM.
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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  21. #21
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by restless



    Actually, i remembered one argument that might be of relevance here. Doesn't the fact that the smith almost completely removes hams from the equation somehow impairs that stability of the knees? Can't remember were this one came from, but i think it was from someone quite respected in the industry. Toughts?

    *** I believe it was Charles Poliquin who stated this. If you do a search you'll see what i had to say about it.
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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  22. #22
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C.
    Posts
    5,323
    Here is a thread I started, asking why thses machines have gotten a bad rep.
    Also the answer to your question about the hamstrings is in there as well.

    http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...s&pagenumber=1
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  23. #23
    Trying to figure this out JohnCollins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    1,336
    Thanks, Maki!

    JC
    "Only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe." --Albert Einstein

    Had a good workout on my liver yesterday. Did a pretty high number of reps, but not to complete failure. Liver DOMS today is kinda bad...it has even reached my head! -- ElPietro

    "If I ever found a chick who smelled like gun powder and spent cartridges, I'd run to a jewelry store, rob it, and propose to her with a sack of diamonds. " --Budiak

    "I dance like a drunken white boy. I'm really screwed since I quit drinking." -- PowerManDL

  24. #24
    Gen_chat worst nightmare
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Europe
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    0
    Thanks, i already had found it.

  25. #25
    Shoulda been a meso... puny_ectomorph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    180

    wow...

    Didn't really intend to get one hell of an argument going. Thank you all for your opinions and information. I'll take all of it into account when I hit the squats again, whether it be in the cage or the machine. My apologies for taking so long to reply.

    -puny

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