The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. #1
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Speed Set(s) For Strength?

    I was wondering about speed sets with bench presses, or chins, or squats. I am currently doing 5x5 for bench, chins, and squats with a paused set afterwards. I am thinking about incporporating a set of speed work either before or after the paused set. Where should I put it?

    And what kind of weight should I use? From what I understand speed work is basically as fast as you can do the movement with good form etc. right?

    Opinions on this please guys..

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  3. #2
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    I can't say from experience how to incorporate speed work into a routine like your 5x5... but I know at westside, the speed work is done with roughly 50-60% of the 1RM and is dictated primarily by bar speed (if you are at 50% of 1RM and the bar speed is still not fast enough.. drop weight).

    With westside, the speed work is done three days after the maxeffort work... so maybe you should add the speed work in on a different day than your primary bench day... and the sets at WSB uses is roughly 6-10x3 reps.

    maybe that helps, sorry I can't be more specific, as I'm not very well versed in speed training.

  4. #3
    A. F.
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    i doubt you could do the 5x5 AND the speed set..

  5. #4
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Oh yeah okay well see what happens. I dont know if it would be worth it to incorporate speed work.

    Other opinions?

  6. #5
    Bespoke Super Mod
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    I don't see speed work fitting in with your current goals
    "A + B + C = Success if, A = Hard Work, B = Hard Play, C = Keeping your mouth shut" -Albert
    Einstein


    I've always gone to the gym with the conviction that I'll be the hardest working mother****er in the joint. Make that your credo, and hope we don't lift at the same place.
    -- Adam Fahy


    "Fran is a double-hard bastard"- Clint Brewer 31/12/02

  7. #6
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Okay FAngel, thanks man - was looking for some honest input. Again, thanks.

  8. #7
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    ... What about strength as being one of my current goals? I mean speed work is intended to help with bar speed and all that correct? Why wouldnt a speed set help?

  9. #8
    Think Tank TMan's Avatar
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    I'm not sure doing speed sets in the same workout as your max effort sets is a good idea. I have never seen a strength routine that does it. Speed work usually is on a separate day. I would imagine that this is for a good reason.

  10. #9
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    I'm with Frankie. You don't need it.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  11. #10
    Jack's Utter Surprise Saturday Fever's Avatar
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    I mentioned incorporating speed work with your chins in your journal because you're going to be trying to jump up 40 pounds by the end of the year.

    Speed work, as incorporated by Westside, is a means of training bar speed but the main idea is learning to be explosive off your chest. Likewise you'll do board presses and such to train your lockout.

    Doing speed work for your chins would have to be alternated with a "ME" day for your chins. Basically you'll wanna do a week where you use no weight, or even machine assistance, and go for speed. Work on getting yourself out of the bottom of the lift as quickly as possible. You could either use the bench or squat mentality and do either 10x2 or 10x3 respectively. But keep in mind getting yourself out of the lowered position as quickly as possible.

    The "ME" portion would consist of adding even more weight than you normally handle, and only doing a limited ROM. Lower yourself maybe halfway, hold a second, and explode back up to a contracted position. I'm sure you've read a little bit about Westside, really you'd just apply the bench and squat ideas to your chins. Give yourself about a month and then test your full ROM strength, and I'd be willing to bet you'll be at least 20-25lbs heavier than current.

    Have I made any sense, or answered your question at all?

  12. #11
    3:16
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    why not do it on different days.

    for powerman and franko why does he not need it? though not quite sure what monster is trianing goals are though.
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

  13. #12
    Explosive Mofo Blitzforce's Avatar
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    I do it on the same day, it works for me.

    But I don't do 5 main sets either. You need to count them as main sets as well, because while your using a lighter weight 40-60% 1RM, the effect on the muscle and neural system in intense!

    You will get sore.

    I explode the weight so hard and fast that on incline dumbell BP for instance my back leaves the bench when I brake at the end My biceps get a good pump too

    Results? well my Incline Dumbell Bench Press went from 55lb dumbells for 2x6 to 85lb ones for 2x6. My Barbell row went from 115 for 3x6 to 195 for 3x6. All in 2 months - it works!

    I would call this CAT training rather than a speed set, because that's too Westside for me, Fred Hatfield did this way before the WSB

    On this note, why not explode on every set? I do, its better than going slow IMO
    Last edited by Blitzforce; 09-02-2002 at 02:38 PM.

  14. #13
    Gaglione Strength Chris Rodgers's Avatar
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    How out combining speed training with HST?? Should be a good combo.
    Best Meet Lifts(Raw w/wraps):
    @165- 435 SQ 270 BE 560 DL.....1255 total
    @181- 535 SQ 300 BE 570 DL.....1400 total
    Best Meet Lifts(Multi-ply):
    @148- 575 SQ 315 BE 515 DL.....1400 total
    @165- 680 SQ 380 BE 540 DL.....1555 total
    @181- 700 SQ 375 BE 535 DL.....1605 total
    Best Gym Lifts(Raw w/wraps)
    545 SQ 305 BE 585 DL

  15. #14
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Geeze.....speed training only has a place in training when a place is given to it.

    If you're looking to increase rate of force development, fine, go for it. But it maximal strength is the top-end goal, he really doesn't need it.

    It'd basically be superfluous and a waste of resources at this point.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  16. #15
    Senior Member benchmonster's Avatar
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    Speed day needs to be seperated from your max effort day, or if you are intent on bodybuilding, then it needs to be seperated from your other bench or squat day, by 72 hours.

    If you are intent on becoming as strong as humanly possible, then speed work is essential. Force equals mass times acceleration. If you are only increasing the mass you are moving, then you are missing out on half of the possible force increases available to you.

    If you get stronger (max effort day) as well as getting faster (speed day or dynamic effort day) then you will most definately gain strength at a much greater pace than doing max effort work alone. There is little doubt about this. A barbell that is moving faster, has a better chance of being locked out than a barbell moving slower. Fast moving objects blast past sticking points much better than slow moving objects, which require brute force to overcome a sticking point. Brute force is nice, but it has its limits.

    Speed also has its limits, but combined with brute force, you get a synergistic effect that moves insane amounts of weights. Even if you are intent on bodybuilding, and have no desire to be ridiculously strong (I don't understand that mentality, but I know it exists, who doesn't want to be stronger?) then you can still benefit from increasing your strength. Moving a heavier weight for 10 reps, surely builds more muscle than moving a lighter weight for those same 10 reps, right?

    MonStar, if you want to get the low down on speed work, holler at me, I would be happy to walk you through it .

    B.

  17. #16
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    The dynamic-maximal microcycle of Westside is fine for powerlifting- but for a movement like pullups, where he's not necessarily going for a 1RM, it becomes a different matter.

    What most people don't realize is that speed work ala Westside is done to increase power, not maximal strength. The main reason Westside uses the dynamic effort method is because of the reactive strength it develops; not the actual speed. A pullup, even a maximal one, doesn't have the same mechanics as a bench press or a squat. Nor will there be any equipment to aid the process.

    If, and this is a big if, he wanted to truly work for a single-rep maximum on a pullup, then I'd advise him to do similarly to what you noted-- a heavy day and a power day. The heavy day would involve maximal and near-maximal singles, while the power day would involve work to increase the rate of force development.

    However, that doesn't jibe well with his current 5x5 methodology-- so the speed set afterwards would really be a waste of time.

    Sorry to get so in-depth, but I've been digging through Supertraining and a few similar texts all day on this very subject, so its kinda fresh in my mind.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

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