The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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Thread: Lat development

  1. #26
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Accipiter
    Personally I'd just focus on Rows, either bb or DB. No real reason for anything else
    There is definitely a reason to do chins A. I am not sure what lead to this misbelief. A vertical and horizontal row are optimal for back development. A vertical row suck as a chin or pulldown and a horiztonal row such as support rows or bentover rows, etc.

  2. #27
    Senior Member Accipiter's Avatar
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    why? Don't rows work everything back there anyway?

  3. #28
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Accipiter
    Guys like Yates and Ronnie don't even do chins and look at their backs..
    LOL, Yates and Ronnie defintely do chins for their backs. No doubt about it. I am not sure where you gathered this information from either.

    why? Don't rows work everything back there anyway?
    Eh, in a sense. In my opinion rows seem to hit your lats fairly well, along with your middle traps, teres muscles, and rhomboids. Chins seem to put a little more stress on your lats depending on how you do them. Just what I have noticed.

  4. #29
    bone crusher
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    yeah i agree w/ monstar

    chins or pulldowns work the lats throught a full range of motion wheras a perpendicular row allows these other muscle to go into play

  5. #30
    Senior Member Accipiter's Avatar
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    I believe both Yates and Coleman have said they never do chins.

  6. #31
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    LOL---check again A. They both do chins.

  7. #32
    Jack's Utter Surprise Saturday Fever's Avatar
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    One of you needs to provide links or text references backing up your idea that those guys do or don't do chins. Otherwise the idea is moot.

    However, here's my take on lats and exercises for them. From a strength perspective, the lats are an assistance muscle. They aid the bench, and I believe they help stabilize the back during squats and deads, but I could be wrong on that. As such, you don't want wide lats, you want thick lats. Along those lines, you want to do lats work in the same plane as your bench press, so a row is your better option.

    If you want the wide, pretty bodybuilding pose-style lats, I guess chins are your best bet. I believe that if you work your lats, and have the genes, they will grow and you'll have the impressive spread. I don't believe what exercise you use makes much difference in whether you get that spread.

  8. #33
    Hungry BCC's Avatar
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    Ronnie doesn't do chins. And the closest thing yates did to them was pulldowns on a hammerstrength machine. This certainly wasn't his primary exercise either. Both Ronnie and Dorian center their back workouts around BB rows.

    To me, lat pulldowns are the equivalent of dumbell kickbacks.

    I really don't think I'll ever touch them again.
    "As far as drugs were concerned, all my bodybuilding heroes were on everything but roller skates."


    In Memphis, it is illegal for a woman to drive by herself, unless a man is walking or running infront of the vehicle, waving a red flag in order to warn approaching pedestrians and motorists.

  9. #34
    Hungry BCC's Avatar
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    Also to add, my workout partner who has some of the hugest lats of anyone I know, has never done a pulldown ever since his back has exploded. He does nothing but bent bb rows, t-bar in the corner, db rows, and nautilus pullovers. And we're talkin' wings here.
    "As far as drugs were concerned, all my bodybuilding heroes were on everything but roller skates."


    In Memphis, it is illegal for a woman to drive by herself, unless a man is walking or running infront of the vehicle, waving a red flag in order to warn approaching pedestrians and motorists.

  10. #35
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    BCC:

    Like I said a lot of it IS genetics. Strange that he doesnt do chins though. All he does are bentover rows for the most part? Damn. Yeah the pullover machine is pretty decent.

  11. #36
    Tir na nOc Pursuer Borgod Maxximus's Avatar
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    No single back exercise makes me work as much as the DB row.

    No other exercise makes me feel it for days after too

    I find chins really difficult, might have to try widening my grip but.
    "In the pool of dreams, the water darkens for the soul thats tired of search"

    Varg Vikernes

  12. #37
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
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    Originally posted by BigChaseyChase
    Ronnie doesn't do chins. And the closest thing yates did to them was pulldowns on a hammerstrength machine. This certainly wasn't his primary exercise either. Both Ronnie and Dorian center their back workouts around BB rows.

    To me, lat pulldowns are the equivalent of dumbell kickbacks.

    I really don't think I'll ever touch them again.
    It is pointless arguing over this. Here's why. Both Ronnie and Dorian are genetic freaks (one in a million at the least) and are/were on vast quantities of gear. To use either of these men as examples then, proves nothing. What would be more definite proof would be to find several people who are natural and with average or slightly above average genetics. Their results would be MUCH more typical of what one could hope to achieve. But to use roided-up champion bodybuilders is comparing apples to oranges.

    tuttut tuttut tuttut
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 10-26-2002 at 01:33 AM.

  13. #38
    Hungry BCC's Avatar
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    As far as my friend goes, he's no genetic freak when it comes to back. He didn't have a back worth a **** until he started rowing heavily and site injecting.

    Also, the reason I used those two as examples was because they're two guys with exceptional backs who do not do pulldowns. Gear has nothing to do with it.

    When it comes down to it, there's no substitute for hardwork.
    "As far as drugs were concerned, all my bodybuilding heroes were on everything but roller skates."


    In Memphis, it is illegal for a woman to drive by herself, unless a man is walking or running infront of the vehicle, waving a red flag in order to warn approaching pedestrians and motorists.

  14. #39
    Senior Member Gavan's Avatar
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    At least Dorian did one chin
    Gain Muscles ? Overload !
    Lose Fat ? Input < Output
    Genetic determines your potential
    Chins : 10x106kg Dips 10x109kg

  15. #40
    3:16
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    gavan - he only did one chin if he got to the top!
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

  16. #41
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by BigChaseyChase
    Also, the reason I used those two as examples was because they're two guys with exceptional backs who do not do pulldowns. Gear has nothing to do with it.

    When it comes down to it, there's no substitute for hardwork.
    [/QUOTE

    Agreed. There is no substitute for hard work...but I would disagree on the "gear has nothing to do with it." Gear was responsible for a large portion of their muscle mass, including back]. Your point about your friend who didn't "have a back" until he started lifting heavy and site injecting just proves my point. This is why I said we need NATURAL lifters to do these and then look at their results

  17. #42
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    i have never done any form of a horizontal row and i figure my back is my best part. altho that does not mean much at my level

  18. #43
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    Gear without a doubt has something to do with it. I am not sure why anyone would think otherwise. The reason that people use anabolics is because it allows you to gain more strength/size than you could naturally. If it was all just hard work then there would be lot more big guys out there. Pro bodybuilders work hard, in combination with using anabolics---to achieve their physiques.

  19. #44
    Mike Henley MonStar's Avatar
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    BCC:

    Out of curiosity what grip does your partner use on bentover rows? Also imagine how much larger his back / lats would be if he incorporated chins into his routine.

  20. #45
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    This argument is silly. First, you can certainly build big lats without chins. Second, back thickness, if one is referring to the thickness of the lats is not something that is separable from width. One's width in the lat spread has to do with how far they can spread their scapulae and how big their lats are. If your lats get wider (beyond learning how to spread your scapulae), they will also get thicker, period.

    As to whether or not Ronnie and Dorian perform chins, I guarantee that they performed chins at some point in their weightlifting lives. The reason they don't do them now is that they weigh so darn much in the off-season.

    I personally always liked wide grip, behind the neck chins. I can no longer perform them due to a shoulder injury. I am currently not using any form of a chin and I have pretty decent lats. That does not mean that chins are not effective.

    Chins are like almost any other exercise, they work if done properly, but they are the be-all end-all. The same goes for barbell rows.

  21. #46
    Senior Member Accipiter's Avatar
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    DB kick back of back exercises haha that's awesome. I've been seriously considering how much they're worth lately. The fact that I'm trying to focus on only working my back or bi's during my back/bi day kinda makes it hard to justify something that works back, bi, chest, shoulders, etc.

  22. #47
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    Those are very good points that Chris brought up. First, about lat width being a function of scapulae protraction, he is correct. The Serratus is responsible for bringing the scapulae out away from the body, giving that "wide" look.

    For about a year and a half after I started lifting I figured I just didn't have the genetics for wide lats, but then one day while I was riding in my car I accidently felt my left serratus flex (which you actually feel under the lats, not on the ribs where you can see them). When I got home and checked in the mirror I saw that I could make the left side of my back wide, but I couldn't do the same with my right. It took me about a month infront of the mirror before I could learn to do the same with my right.

    Technically, rows and chins are only slightly different exercises. The only real difference that I can tell is that rows are more of a scapulae retraction movement, where chins would have more of a scapulae rotation effect. What this means is that rows would recruit more middle and upper traps, while chins would recruit more of the rhomboids and levator scapulae muscles. I guess that could be why some pros might shy away from chins in favor of rows. About lat recruitment in each, I dunno. I still do both.

    About pros doing rows because their steroids tell them to, that sounds like a load of crap to me. No offense. Juice does change the game, but I'm sure there's a better reason they opt not to do chis. It can't change the game *that* much. Also, give credit where credit is due. It takes a special kind of genetic freak on steroids to do what Dorian and Ronnie have done.

  23. #48
    Senior Member Accipiter's Avatar
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    right, steroids only do part of the work, you still have to put out effort. Just cause someone does roids doesn't mean a certain exercise is gonna do dissproportionately more than other exercises. The exercise isn't a living entity, it can't decide to suddenly do more for your body than another exercise.

  24. #49
    Back at it
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    I struggle with chins... I think a lot of it has to do with my anatomy because it usually just doesn't feel right.

    My back routine is far from being low volume, but it works well. It is as follows:

    Front lat pulldown- 3 sets: 170x8
    One arm Db rows- 3 sets: 80x8
    Seated cable row- 1 set: 180x failure
    Bent over BB rows- 3 sets: 175x8
    Deadlifts- 3 sets: 245x 8 (strict form)
    Smith machine shrugs- 3 sets: 400x8

    I know this is a lot for most people, but I target different areas with my 3 row sets. The DB rows are for my lower sweep of the lats so I stay fairly parallel to the floor. The seated cable rows are just a failure set to really squeeze the back, adn the DB rows are for my upper back/rhomboids so I an standing up at a fairly high angle (like when using a T bar).

    I love working back and this doesn't seem to be overtraining for me.

  25. #50
    Jack's Utter Surprise Saturday Fever's Avatar
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    I love working back and this doesn't seem to be overtraining for me.
    I'm not calling you out, by any means, but what makes you think that volume isn't overtraining?

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