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Thread: growth cycle

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    Wannabebig Member pat s's Avatar
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    growth cycle

    i read once that muscle growth begins 24 hours after a muscle is trained-peaks at 48 and ends by 96.i think it was in a Hatfield book.ive always trained on a nine day cycle because i felt it maximized gains and kept most muscle groups in a constant state of growth.(eg..id train biceps three days after back because they were worked indirectly on back day)does anyone know if this scale is still considered valid or have they're been newer studies??

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    haev you seen results using this??
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    Muscle does NOT atrophy after 96 hours, or stop growing. That is utterly false. I train one muscle group a week and have seen good results from that. Chris Mason trains even less frequently, I believe, and he is the antithesis of atrophy. People have different rates of recovery. Age, steroids, genetic ability, training history...etc, all play a part in how fast or slow you recuperate after a training session. Also of course how hard you trained. There is NO one size fits all. Anyone who says different has something to sell you...or is deluded.

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    EA,
    I am not sure when the body enters atrophy and starts to shrink, but it does stop growing after a few days. I am not saying there is anything wrong or a better way than training once a week. But I am not convinced your body is growing for the whole week. A once a week schedule is handy and you have other body parts to work around.
    Just because the body is not enter atrophy doesn't mean it is growing. I don't believe my biceps or calves need a weeks rest. I give them a week cause I am working on other body parts and I am trying to be well rounded. If all I wanted was leg strength I could probably squat on the 5 or 6 day. My belief is people who train something weekly or every other week or staying in proportion. Such that if they trained more frequently they might dwarf other parts. Also it would be a difficult schedule if you trained each muscle when it has recuperated, since they would vary.
    Hey thanks for using the word atrophy, even though it wasn't mentioned or implied in the thread. I learned a new word. I am not impressed though.
    Last edited by Berserker; 11-25-2002 at 10:23 AM.

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    I am not sure when the body enters atrophy and starts to shrink, but it does stop growing after a few days.
    I don't know about that. The body will grow as long as it feels necessary. There is many factors that come into play here, it's absurd to say that hypertrophy STOPS a few days after training. If I train for a number of weeks and then decide to take a week or two off, it wouldn't make much sense to say that hypertrophy will cease during that time off, because people do get bigger and stronger during time off.

    And as for the original post about muscle growth starting 24 hrs after training. If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure it starts immediately after training. As soon as you swallow that post-workout meal/shake, your body begins to repair that muscle tissue.

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    Re: growth cycle

    Originally posted by pat s
    i read once that muscle growth begins 24 hours after a muscle is trained-peaks at 48 and ends by 96.i think it was in a Hatfield book.ive always trained on a nine day cycle because i felt it maximized gains and kept most muscle groups in a constant state of growth.(eg..id train biceps three days after back because they were worked indirectly on back day)does anyone know if this scale is still considered valid or have they're been newer studies??
    There has been research showing all this to be false. Protein synthesis returns to basal levels in 36 hours, which essentially means your muscle is not building any more contractile machinery, thus no hypertrophy. Also, atrophy takes a lot longer than that to occur. There's nothing wrong with training muscles 3 X week though, as long as you keep overall volume within reasonable levels.

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    Originally posted by Berserker
    Hey thanks for using the word atrophy, even though it wasn't mentioned or implied in the thread. I learned a new word. I am not impressed though.
    Look at the original post. He was saying muscle growth ends at 96 hours. After that atrophy would begin. Therefore it was definitely implied. The saying that muscle atrophy begins after 96 hours is one of the most well-known and repeated bodybuilding myths. BTW if atrophy is a new word to you, then maybe you would benefit from laying off the sarcasm and listening to people who have a lot more experience in the Iron Game than you. You might just learn something.

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    You just love throwing out that phrase-experience in the Iron Game.
    Yes I did come here to learn from other people with more experience. No I never used the word before, but had an educated guess.
    My point was I don't think a week is the optimal time for muscle recovery. It may be the optimal schedule for working the whole body.
    I didn't realize as soon as muscle growth ends athrophy begins. If that is so, then my mistake and then I was definitely speaking from my bowels.

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    Look at the original post. He was saying muscle growth ends at 96 hours. After that atrophy would begin.
    Why would atrophy begin as soon as hypertrophy ends? Do YOU know what atrophy means? lol, I don't think he was at all implying that a muscle will begin to break down after 96 hrs. of non-use. If that were the case, then if I didn't work my tri's for 4 days, then they would shrink. I don't think he was implying that because that is rediculous. He was merely stating something that Hatfield said about hypertrophy ending after 96 hrs. of non-use. He didn't say anything about atrophy.

  10. #10
    Wannabebig Member pat s's Avatar
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    jackt's got it right.i dont think muscle start to shrink after 96hrs just that growth stops.i know age,genetics and nutrition have alot to do with recovery ability i just use 96hrs as guideline for my split routines.

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    Originally posted by gettinjackT


    Why would atrophy begin as soon as hypertrophy ends? Do YOU know what atrophy means? lol, I don't think he was at all implying that a muscle will begin to break down after 96 hrs. of non-use. If that were the case, then if I didn't work my tri's for 4 days, then they would shrink. I don't think he was implying that because that is rediculous. He was merely stating something that Hatfield said about hypertrophy ending after 96 hrs. of non-use. He didn't say anything about atrophy.
    I know what atrophy means, thank you very much. Do you think I was agreeing with him? Check your reading comprehension. Now as for hypertrophy and atrophy. The human body is in a constant state of flux. This is why we get older, and also why we need to train to maintain or gain muscle size. When we work a muscle (properly) then we are in a state of muscle growth. When muscle growth ends (whenever that is) then the muscle enters a state of atrophy. If this were not so, we would not need to continue to train once we have reached our desired size. As for the time limit why would you think that I think 96 hours is correct? Look at my posts againtuttut
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 11-27-2002 at 09:01 AM.

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    BTW I did not say that atrophy begins as soon as hypertrophy ends. Please don't put words in my mouth. If you want to quote me, do so correctly. Thank you.

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    Originally posted by gettinjackT


    I And as for the original post about muscle growth starting 24 hrs after training. If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure it starts immediately after training. As soon as you swallow that post-workout meal/shake, your body begins to repair that muscle tissue.
    No, this is also wrong. Your body is in a catabolic state after training. Where do you get your information from, FLEX? The body does NOT begin to repair muscle tissue until the food has been digested, broken down into nutrients and transported throughout the body...a process which can take several hours. The reason why we eat so soon after training is to limit the time the body spends in a catabolic state. Yes, another reason is that we are trying to get the nutrients to repair the muscle. But it certainly doesn't happen "as soon as you swallow thatpost-workout meal/shake. And if I remember correctly, liver glycogen gets refueled first and then muscle glycogen. So that post-workout meal would mainly go towards liver glycogen.

    PS. If I'm wrong, I'm sure Mr. Belial, Mr. Mason, or Mr. Powerman will let me know.

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    Reread my post.

    Paul



    I was typing while you were typing too.
    Last edited by Berserker; 11-27-2002 at 05:42 PM.

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    I believe the "in-between" stage that follows hypertrophy, and preceeds atrophy, is referred to as a 'semi-anticatabolic state', or at least that's what B. Haycock calls it.

    His contention is that your body experiences hypertrophy during the first 24 to 36 hours, and then (providing proper diet) sits in a semi-anticatabolic state for a few days after that, if I remember correctly. Following that, atrophy sets in.

    Again, that is merely a rough representation of his philosophy.
    Last edited by Majestic; 11-27-2002 at 05:29 PM.
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    Originally posted by ExtremeAnabolic


    I know what atrophy means, thank you very much. Do you think I was agreeing with him? Check your reading comprehension. Now as for hypertrophy and atrophy. The human body is in a constant state of flux. This is why we get older, and also why we need to train to maintain or gain muscle size. When we work a muscle (properly) then we are in a state of muscle growth. When muscle growth ends (whenever that is) then the muscle enters a state of atrophy. If this were not so, we would not need to continue to train once we have reached our desired size. As for the time limit why would you think that I think 96 hours is correct? Look at my posts againtuttut
    You're welcome very much .........I never said anywhere in my post that you were agreeing with him....maybe you should be rereading.

    BTW I did not say that atrophy begins as soon as hypertrophy ends. Please don't put words in my mouth. If you want to quote me, do so correctly. Thank you.
    I didn't put any words in your mouth. You clearly stated that if muscle growth ends at 96 hrs, then that is when atrophy begins.
    He was saying muscle growth ends at 96 hours. After that atrophy would begin.
    See.............

    No, this is also wrong. Your body is in a catabolic state after training. Where do you get your information from, FLEX? The body does NOT begin to repair muscle tissue until the food has been digested, broken down into nutrients and transported throughout the body...a process which can take several hours. The reason why we eat so soon after training is to limit the time the body spends in a catabolic state. Yes, another reason is that we are trying to get the nutrients to repair the muscle. But it certainly doesn't happen "as soon as you swallow thatpost-workout meal/shake. And if I remember correctly, liver glycogen gets refueled first and then muscle glycogen. So that post-workout meal would mainly go towards liver glycogen.
    Yes, I know the body is in a catabolic state after training. And no, sorry I have never read FLEX before.
    I apologize, what I meant was that as soon as you consume the post-workout shake, you body then breaks it down (obviously) before any muscle repair can begin. All I was trying to say was that I do not believe this takes 24 hrs. A post workout shake shouldn't take more than an hr or two to be broken down. (it's in liquid form, and whey & simple carbs do not take very long to be absorbed)And then, an anabolic state will be acheived. And, no, that post-workout shake will not just refuel liver glycogen.
    Last edited by gettinjackT; 11-27-2002 at 11:34 PM.

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    Senior Member Accipiter's Avatar
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    you train one muscle group per week? so like, back one week, chest the next, quads after that....so you're basically training every part once every 5 weeks or so??

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by gettinjackT
    [B]



    I didn't put any words in your mouth. You clearly stated that if muscle growth ends at 96 hrs, then that is when atrophy begins.
    See.............

    Yes...but I did not say when muscle growth ends, then that is as SOON as atrophy sets in. The word "soon" was used by you in your second post, first sentence, BTW. Muscle growth is in a cycle, it grows and then it will atrophy if not trained again. But obviously this is a slow process and will not occur overnight. As for the shake maybe the shake itself. But your quote was "postworkout MEAL/shake" That's what I was referring to (the meal). A meal takes about 2-5 hours to digest and only after that can the nutrients be absorbed by the muscles. Also take into consideration, that if you have the meal with the shake then digestion takes longer (than if you had the shake by itself) . As for the liver, it can hold ( I think) about 120 grams of glycogen. So if liver glycogen is low, it could easily absorb the shake and have room to spare. Muscle glycogen is only refilled after the liver.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 11-28-2002 at 08:56 AM.

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    Originally posted by Accipiter
    you train one muscle group per week? so like, back one week, chest the next, quads after that....so you're basically training every part once every 5 weeks or so??
    LOL, my bad, I meant I train each muscle group once a week.

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    Originally posted by gettinjackT


    . And no, sorry I have never read FLEX before.
    .

    LOL, you're not missing anything. Didn't mean to bite your head off in my previous posts. I should have been clearer about what I meant as well.

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    LoL, Ok EA, as long as that's all cleared up.

    I should've been more clear with that meal/shake thing. A meal containing solid food will definately take quite a bit longer to be broken down and absorbed.

  23. #23
    Wannabebig Member pat s's Avatar
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    Finding The Ideal Training Split
    written by Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D., MSS, International Sports Sciences Association


    One of my favorite lines is, "I can pass by the weight room, smell the iron inside, and instantly begin to grow." Simply, some people tend to thrive on very little exercise, while others seem to be incapable of making gains no matter how hard, long and frequently they train. This was referred to as one's "tolerance to exercise," a term coined by Arthur Jones years ago. One’s “tolerance” is high if more exercise is needed, and low if less is needed. There are many variables that can affect your exercise tolerance. Of course, “genetics” ranks highest on the list below, and you’ll notice several such factors. Others, on the other hand, are able to be manipulated in various ways.

    Red vs White Fiber Ratio
    Tolerance To Pain
    Level Of "Psych"
    Amount Of Rest Since Last Workout
    Perceived Exertion
    Amount Of Eccentric Stress (Which Causes Connective Tissue Microtrauma)
    Incentive Level
    Strength-To-Weight Ratio
    Time Of Last Meal (Energy)
    Type Of Foods Eaten At Last Meal (Glycemic Index)
    Use Of Ergogenic Techniques Or Substances
    Musculoskeletal Leverage Factors
    Motor Unit Recruitment Capabilities
    Skill Level At Exercise Being Performed (If Such Is Required; e.g., Cleans)
    Equipment Quality and Design
    Environmental Factors (e.g., Heat, Cold, etc.)
    Size Of Muscle Being Exercised
    Various Intra- and Extracellular Biochemical Factors
    How close you are to your maximum potential in size or strength
    All these factors, and perhaps several more as yet undreamed of, will variably affect how frequently you should train each body part and how best to split your routine.

    Several years ago, after chatting with Arthur and reading some of his thinking on the topic, I began charting other lifters' reps at 80 percent max. I found that guys who were so-called "fast" gainers were only able to do 4-6 reps at 80 percent, while lifters who seemingly never made great gains were able to rep out at around 15-20 reps with 80 percent of their max. Apparently, so-called "fast gainers" have rather poor anaerobic strength endurance. This is explainable in part by the fact that they're probably mostly white muscle fiber, which has fast twitch/low oxidative capabilities. Conversely, slow gainers are probably mostly red muscle fiber (slow twitch/high oxidative) and therefore may possess greater ability for rapid during-set recovery.

    The problem is, however, that each muscle group's tolerance to exercise probably differs. Each exercise you do for each body part can - and often does - possess an entirely individual rep ability at 80 percent max. To discern your specific tolerance level for each body part, follow these simple instructions:

    Determine your approximate one rep maximum (1RM) for each exercise.
    Load 80 percent on the bar (machine) and rep out with it for one all-out effort to see how many reps you can do.
    Apply this information to the table below to determine each body part's exercise tolerance.
    Take into account ALL of the factors listed above that can affect your exercise tolerance.
    Critically evaluate whether your predicted exercise tolerance levels stand up to what you know from experience to be true. Remember, "low tolerance" means that you probably make easy gains for that body part, and "high tolerance" means that you’re probably a hard gainer for that body part.
    Here is an example of what I've found in regards to exercise tolerances for fast gainers, average gainers and slow gainers. Perhaps you'll find these figures and estimations to be pretty close estimates. But perhaps you won't. One thing is clear, you must look! Your continued progress toward your maximum potential may well depend on it!

    Reps Standard Tolerance Ability
    Performed Deviation Level To
    With 80% Max From Mean Make Gains
    _________________________________________________________________________

    4 or less -3 Very Very Low Fast Gainer (20-25%
    of total population)
    4-6 -2 Very Low

    6-10 -1 Low

    10-13 Mean Average Average Gainer (50-60%
    of total population)
    13-17 +1 High

    17-21 +2 Very High

    21-more +3 Very Very High Slow Gainer (20-25%
    of total population)
    ________________________________________________________________________


    Slow Gainers (usually predominantly red muscle fiber):
    Days Of Recovery Required For Each Body Part Before Training It Again

    "Light Day" "Medium Day" "Heavy Day"
    ________________________________________________________________________

    Large Muscle Groups:

    Upper Legs 3 Days Rest 4 Days Rest 5 Days Rest
    Lower Back

    Medium Size Muscle Groups:

    Chest 2 Days Rest 3 Days Rest 4 Days Rest
    Upper Back
    Biceps
    Triceps
    Shoulders

    Smaller Muscle Groups:
    Midsection 1 Day Rest 2 Days Rest 3 Days Rest
    Calfs
    Forearms

    Slow gainers often benefit most from 10 or more sets of 15-20 reps
    _________________________________________________________________________

    Average Gainers (usually a mix of red and white muscle fiber):
    Days Of Recovery Required For Each Body Part Before Training It Again

    "Light Day" "Medium Day" "Heavy Day"
    _________________________________________________________________________

    Upper Legs 4 Days Rest 5 Days Rest 6 Days Rest
    Lower Back

    Chest 3 Days Rest 4 Days Rest 5 Days Rest
    Upper Back
    Biceps
    Triceps
    Shoulders

    Midsection 2 Days Rest 3 Days Rest 4 Days Rest
    Calfs
    Forearms

    Average gainers often benefit most from 5-8 sets of 10-12 reps
    ________________________________________________________________________


    Fast Gainers (usually predominantly white muscle fiber):
    Days Of Recovery Required For Each Body Part Before Training It Again

    "Light Day" "Medium Day" "Heavy Day"
    ________________________________________________________________________

    Upper Legs 5 Days Rest 6 Days Rest 7 Days Rest
    Lower Back

    Chest 4 Days Rest 5 Days Rest 6 Days Rest
    Upper Back
    Biceps
    Triceps
    Shoulders

    Midsection 3 Day Rest 4 Days Rest 5 Days Rest
    Calfs
    Forearms

    Fast gainers often benefit most from 3-5 sets of 4-8 reps done explosively
    ________________________________________________________________________

    By critically evaluating your individual muscles' tolerance to exercise, you can more easily "fine tune" your training regimen to provide maximum gains in the shortest possible time. But don't forget the other factors that may affect your recovery rate. Look at the list again (above). How have you accounted for each of these variable's effect on your progress? Have you raised or lowered your reps and sets accordingly? Have you increased or decreased the frequency of your workouts commensurably?

    Training intensity? Have you taken into account your ratio of white versus red fiber, and adjusted your exercise load and movement speed accordingly?

    Why Can’t You Just Copy The Pros?

    Why is it that most newcomers to bodybuilding, and even most intermediate level bodybuilders, can’t make continued gains using a split they copied from one of the pros? It’s quite simple, really. First of all, you must be truthful with yourself in answering some basic questions. Are you as fastidious as the pro you seek to emulate in all that you do? Your supplement schedule? Your diet? Have you as much time "in the trench" as the pro? How long have you been forcing your body to adapt to stress? Most pros have forced adaptations to their muscles and other bodily systems that have taken years to accomplish. As your body changes over time, your susceptibility to further change does as well. New forms of stress force different adaptive processes to occur, and each adaptation requires that different stressors and training schedules be devised in order to take your body one more step closer to its maximum potential.

    So, as you change your body, your body demands different scheduling for further adaptation to take place. It isn’t simply a matter of piling on more pig iron to satisfy the progressive overload principle. It’s more complicated than that. One of the biggest mistakes all bodybuilders tend to make is that they do not build their programs with this important fact in mind. As you change, so must your training because your body’s “tolerance” to that level or type of stress has changed. And, how you split your training can be an important source of new adaptive stress to which you have not yet adapted.

    Most bodybuilders are not “hard gainers” or “fast gainers” in all body parts. Further, as you get closer to your maximum potential -- where all professional bodybuilders are -- you may become a hard gainer, whereas earlier in your career your gains seemed to come easy. Or, maybe you’ve remained an easy gainer but have yet to discover the type of stress your body now requires to force continued growth.

    Through experimentation, I assure you that finding your own level of "tolerance" (body part per body part) will make a big difference. Where to begin? Here are a few examples of how you can split your training program. Adjust them at will.












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