The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
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    Speed and Power(Question for Experienced Martial Artists)

    I know getting a reply to this post is a long shot.

    I am a 3rd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Doe. Ever since they made Sparring a Olympic sport Iv'e been sparring my butt off. Any way, in sparring, you need powerful kicks. And you need tremendous speed.
    This is what I want to gain-

    Speed and power in the following kicks:

    Roundhouse(you know, the twisting your hip and bending your leg.....pretty common)

    Back Spinning Heal Kick(doing a full 360 withough leaving the ground, slanting your body down, to kick higher)

    Most importantly

    Back Kick(doing a 180 with or without leaving the ground, similar to side kick, turning your hips, extending your leg forward, bending your bottom portion back)

    This kick is extremely powerful. I hope there are kick boxers, or other martial artists who can help me.

    So How do I make these 3 kicks more powerful? And Faster?
    I do not fear the 10,000 kicks you have practiced once; I fear the one kick you have practiced 10,000 times

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  3. #2
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    Squats low reps high weight

  4. #3
    Simply Devious Rastaman's Avatar
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    Re: Speed and Power(Question for Experienced Martial Artists)

    Originally posted by InfinitePower
    I know getting a reply to this post is a long shot.

    I am a 3rd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Doe. Ever since they made Sparring a Olympic sport Iv'e been sparring my butt off. Any way, in sparring, you need powerful kicks. And you need tremendous speed.
    This is what I want to gain-

    Speed and power in the following kicks:

    Roundhouse(you know, the twisting your hip and bending your leg.....pretty common)

    Back Spinning Heal Kick(doing a full 360 withough leaving the ground, slanting your body down, to kick higher)

    Most importantly

    Back Kick(doing a 180 with or without leaving the ground, similar to side kick, turning your hips, extending your leg forward, bending your bottom portion back)

    This kick is extremely powerful. I hope there are kick boxers, or other martial artists who can help me.

    So How do I make these 3 kicks more powerful? And Faster?

    How do you make them more powerful and fast? Technique.

    I don't know if you've been in tournaments before, but forget the fancy pancy kicks, those will only help you in getting your ass kicked. Work on your turning kick, your side kick, and your front kick (maybe some reverse side kicks as well). The most important thing in Olympic style is conditioning, so you better make sure you're in great cardio shape before entering any tournies!

    Hit the skipping rope for more speed... and one more thing... you're a third degree and you're just now starting to spar your butt off!? tuttut
    Last edited by Rastaman; 12-03-2002 at 07:44 PM.
    "The only sin which we never forgive in each other is difference of opinion."
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson


    Word.

  5. #4
    Son of Krypton Majestic's Avatar
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    Originally posted by SaulDSL
    Squats low reps high weight
    Incorrect.

    Unless you're doing explosive squats, with ultra light weight and two spotters, you're wasting your time.

    You're going to be kicking someone, not making a powerful cut on the football field, or lifting someone over your head.

    You'd be better off doing depth jumps/box jumps.

    I don't want to explain depth jumps here, but I can tell you first hand, that single exercise increased my vertical the most, and brought the power to my legs back (I earned my black belt in Tang Soo Do at age 12, haven't been training in over a decade).

    All the rim jumps, jump shoes, strength shoes, etc. in the world aren't going to give your legs as much "thrust" or "pop" as depth jumps. And you won't need a spotter....just some restraint.

    You want a powerful, fast, and "twitchy" core, so that it doesn't seem like you're "gathering yourself" before you unleash a kick.

    I would investigate some speed exercises for your lower back and abs.

    Now go to the web and look up key words like, "martial arts" + "plyometric training"

    Kick on, grasshopper.

  6. #5
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    You want those kicks to be better, you have to train them specifically.

    You can't lift to make any movement better (unless its a weight training movement you're trying to improve).
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  7. #6
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL
    You want those kicks to be better, you have to train them specifically.

    You can't lift to make any movement better (unless its a weight training movement you're trying to improve).

    If he strengthened the muscles that are used in throwing a powerful kick, it would only make sense that it could potentially make the kick more powerful, of course assuming that his form and tecnique and everything are also being trained to the greatest degree. But if maxmal strength is the basis of all other strength(speed strength and starting strength in this situation), if it was increased he could kick faster and harder.

    Of course there is no weight movement that simulates a kick. But if he did say powercleans to train his posterior chain, and maybe the glutes and lowerback were utilized in throwing a kick, those muscles would be faster/stronger and therefore the kick would be faster and stronger....

  8. #7
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    To which I say.....you can't lift to make a specific movement better
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  9. #8
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    Iv'e been sparring for 7 years now. I got my black belt 5 years ago. I only meant that Iv'e begun trying harder, in sparring, since it happened. I have been to countless tournaments. I have 60 medals, 21 Gold, 30 silver, 9 bronze. I'm not a bragger, im very modeste. But I tell no lie, by saying that I am a really good Martial Artist. Since Iv'e joined, it's all come easy to me, and I can say with out hesitating that my technique is one of the best in my school.

    That said. I have begun doing squats, with moderate levels of weight. I do leg extentions, maximum level. I do leg presses, as much as I can do.

    Majestic, I would like to understand how exactly to do your jumps. If you canno't, or do not want to explain it here, please Private message me. Majestic, I really want to know.

    Specefic targeting........well I'll try it out.

    There are so many muscles working in 1 kick, I have practice kicks countless times....Im hoping weight training could help me even more.

    How can you target all those muscles with weights? Unless you do several different leg excercises, would I be wrong to say...you can't?
    I do not fear the 10,000 kicks you have practiced once; I fear the one kick you have practiced 10,000 times

    http://www.trojanwrestling.com/gifs/tgif1.gif

  10. #9
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Strengthening the individual muscles is the key, yes.

    Squats and deads can strengthen them quite effectively.

    However, he's more concerned with power and speed. You're correct in your assumption that increased strength will carryover into these qualities.

    Lifting alone, without training the movements specifically and intensively, will not though.

    Plyos.....can help develop reactive ability and aid in jumping, but I'm not sure how well they'd carry over to kicking.
    Last edited by PowerManDL; 12-03-2002 at 10:36 PM.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  11. #10
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Hip flexors are the primary mover. If you want to be strong, train for strength. If you want to have a good kick, practice the kick. If you want to be a strong person with a great kick, strength train and practice the kicks you use. I don't know how you are asking these types of questions if you are so experienced. I am not very experienced and this all seems very clear to me.
    Deadlifts are like women, they'll hurt you everytime, but they'll also make you a man. - Me

    Friends don't let friends do dumbell kickbacks. - Me

    ElP is the smartest man in the world. - Gyno Rhino

    A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls. -- Dan Quayle

    If do right, no can defense. -- Mr. Miyagi

    Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

    Current FFFA Enforcer

  12. #11
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    Makes sense to me that practicing kicks, doing plyometric training AND squats combined will be better than just practicing kicks. Sure, there may not be much carry over in terms of usable strength, but if there is some carryover, it is better than none. Not to mention doing squats will build up muscle mass which is a great padding and build bone density to help prevent against breaks. Saying squats wont carry over greatly so you shouldn't do them is foolish. Squats carry their own benifits aside from strength alone.

  13. #12
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    Oh, forgot to add, as for explosive power, many powerlifting methods use techniques in all thier lifts to develops this. Check out westside barbell as an example. Explosive power is 50% of your lift, and that, as far as I can tell, does carry over.

  14. #13
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Because its the bench press/squat that they're training for, not a kick.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  15. #14
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    Nice roll eyes, it really contributed alot to that expressive debunking of my statement.

    So mr. powerman, how is training to get better at squats only good for getting better at squats with no carry over?

    Mass, in physics is the contributing force to power and force. However, since we live in a gravitational well, our masses are not the ruling factor. Leverage is. You know what the whole muscular system is? One big ol freaking lever. Yeah, well lots of little ones really. If you have better levers, you have an advantage.

    Take a kick for example. When your left leg hits your opponent, say in a side kick, It pushes against your mass, which is planted against the earth via your other foot. How much mass you can move with your leg depends on the leverage you have. If your leg (your lever in this instance) is stronger than the mass that you are kicking your lever does not fail you. The more leverage you have the better advantage you have.

    Technique may be the contributing factor, but I would only say it is 75% of a kick, or even a punch. Strength in working with the laws of the universe (ya know physics), does help.

    So, rolley eyes aside, do pray tell how this assumption is incorrect. Or is rolley eyes your only defense against my apparetnly preposterous statement?

  16. #15
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    Practicing the kick would of course allow you to learn to utilize the full potential of the strength of your leg. I am not saying that squats alone will make you kick stronger, only that they WILL help combined with practice.

  17. #16
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by epimetheus
    So mr. powerman, how is training to get better at squats only good for getting better at squats with no carry over?

    That's not what I said. Before you start running off at the mouth I suggest you comprehend what you're saying.

    I said that developing power with squats won't translate to power in any other movement. Not that improving maximal strength with squats wouldn't carry over.

    Mass, in physics is the contributing force to power and force. However, since we live in a gravitational well, our masses are not the ruling factor. Leverage is. You know what the whole muscular system is? One big ol freaking lever. Yeah, well lots of little ones really. If you have better levers, you have an advantage.

    I do have a rather solid grasp of both basic physics and of biomechanics. Does this have a point?

    Take a kick for example. When your left leg hits your opponent, say in a side kick, It pushes against your mass, which is planted against the earth via your other foot. How much mass you can move with your leg depends on the leverage you have. If your leg (your lever in this instance) is stronger than the mass that you are kicking your lever does not fail you. The more leverage you have the better advantage you have.

    You do realize, based on your obvious understanding of the terms "force" and "power," that maximal strength is a completely different quality from speed?

    Technique may be the contributing factor, but I would only say it is 75% of a kick, or even a punch. Strength in working with the laws of the universe (ya know physics), does help.

    Read the above question.

    So, rolley eyes aside, do pray tell how this assumption is incorrect. Or is rolley eyes your only defense against my apparetnly preposterous statement?

    Well, since I wouldn't want to condescend by any means, lets define a few terms:

    Maximal Strength: maximal isometric force that can be produced by a muscle.
    Rate of Force Development (RFD): the rate at which force is developed in a movement. RFD is dependent upon the load being moved and the leverages of the movement (ie, the concepts of speed-strength and strength-speed).
    Power: Rate of doing work, or force coupled with velocity. This is a different quality from RFD, but is still load and movement-specific, with optimal rates occuring between 50 and 65% of the 1RM in a lift due to the nature of the force-velocity curve.
    Explosive Strength: The highest value of RFD in a given movement. Often sub-classified into starting-strength and acceleration-strength.
    Reactive Ability: The ability to quickly stop and reverse an eccentric action.

    Now with those definitions in place, one has to add that the force-velocity curve shows that as force increases, velocity decreases and vice-versa.

    Additionally, each and every quality listed above is a separate, unique capability that has to be trained as such.

    They all derive from maximal strength, however. Maximal strength is the singular quality that will carryover to all of them. The rest, however, are quite specific in their development, and must be trained as such.

    You want a fast kick? A heavy squat won't ensure that. It gives you the *capability* of having a fast kick, but does NOT make it happen. To say that an explosive speed squat will carry into a fast kick makes even less sense. Both RFD and power development, as noted, are highly sensitive to both loading and movement specificity. A fast squat will NOT translate into a fast kick.

    So yes, it IS very, very technique dependent. A heavy squat will carry over only in the sense of strengthening the muscles involved. A fast, powerful, or explosive squat will NOT, because it isn't specific to the movement.

    Oh, and
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  18. #17
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    The point being:

    Me: Squatting adds benifits combined with proper training- strength, stability, padding, etc. Oh, powerlifters also lift for speed, I see no reason this should not carry over. (apparently wrong) I said this in two seperate posts.

    You: (roll eyes) You stupid twit, you are wrong, they are training for better squats and benchpresses (and left out the best, deadlift). That is different from a kick.

    Not refering to which post I was talking about I assumed you meant my whole post. Perhaps in your zealous glee at derision you just forgot to mention which statement of mine you were making fun of for being so obviously wrong. (If only us mortals were as divine)

    Or perhaps I am misreading the whole roll eyes thing huh?


    Did I say anywhere in my post that squats alone would increase speed of and in itself? Noo, I think I said that squats combined with practice (technique) will increase power. RFD. Speed and no force is NOT superior to equal speed and more force.
    Last edited by epimetheus; 12-04-2002 at 01:12 PM.

  19. #18
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by epimetheus
    The point being:

    Me: Squatting adds benifits combined with proper training- strength, stability, padding, etc. Oh, powerlifters also lift for speed, I see no reason this should not carry over. (apparently wrong) I said this in two seperate posts.

    You: (roll eyes) You stupid twit, you are wrong, they are training for better squats and benchpresses (and left out the best, deadlift). That is different from a kick.


    I apologize if I didn't make it clear that I was referring to speed carryover. But it was that last, erroneous part of your post that I was referring to. As mentioned above, speed and power developed for squats will not carry over to another movement.

    Not refering to which post I was talking about I assumed you meant my whole post. Perhaps in your zealous glee at derision you just forgot to mention which statement of mine you were making fun of for being so obviously wrong. (If only us mortals were as divine)

    Or perhaps I am misreading the whole roll eyes thing huh?


    My zealous glee at derision? Well perhaps if I meant to misconstrue my intent by using overly voluminous diction, I could see the point. However, all I noted was that this statement:

    Originally posted by epimetheus:
    Oh, forgot to add, as for explosive power, many powerlifting methods use techniques in all thier lifts to develops this. Check out westside barbell as an example. Explosive power is 50% of your lift, and that, as far as I can tell, does carry over.
    ....is incorrect.

    The entire beef I had is what that single statement.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  20. #19
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    Goes to show you that intelligence is no indicator of civility. (quite the opposite it often seems)
    Good to know that a moderator on a message board that is apparently around to discuss and teach about weightlifting and training has free reign to post mocking vauge insults at newer posters instead of merely correcting them politely.

    Or before your little roll eyes fiasco, did I say something to you to get under your skin? Probably not, your ego needed a bandaid, and I was around to cover the pus filled horror. Oh well, I admit that I am wrong, quite often, but that is how a person learns. What I don't need is some smarmy, assholic moderator mocking me and laughing at me while I am on the road to enlightenment.

    I will take what little information I have, my open mind, and burning desire to learn elsewhere. Somewhere I can learn without derision from some meglomaniac self-hater that loves to make himself feel good by rubbing what I don't know in my face.

  21. #20
    P o S e R kAiXuan's Avatar
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    this is exactly why black belts dont mean sheeeeet, train to be good............not for some colored belt
    -deFenDeRs oF thE unDerRateD

    If it doesnt make dollars, then it doesnt make sense

    I never knew how skinny I was untill I started gaining a little weight

  22. #21
    Explosive Mofo Blitzforce's Avatar
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    full squats
    snatch grip deadlift
    power snatches
    plyos
    rotational strength
    practise kicking a lot
    Last edited by Blitzforce; 12-04-2002 at 07:46 PM.

  23. #22
    Simply Devious Rastaman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by kAiXuan
    this is exactly why black belts dont mean sheeeeet, train to be good............not for some colored belt
    :withstupi

    Amen brother. I can't even begin to count the number of pathetic black belts I've seen.
    "The only sin which we never forgive in each other is difference of opinion."
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson


    Word.

  24. #23
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by epimetheus
    Goes to show you that intelligence is no indicator of civility. (quite the opposite it often seems)
    Good to know that a moderator on a message board that is apparently around to discuss and teach about weightlifting and training has free reign to post mocking vauge insults at newer posters instead of merely correcting them politely.


    I have apologized. I fail to see the point in continuing this childish rant.

    Or before your little roll eyes fiasco, did I say something to you to get under your skin? Probably not, your ego needed a bandaid, and I was around to cover the pus filled horror. Oh well, I admit that I am wrong, quite often, but that is how a person learns. What I don't need is some smarmy, assholic moderator mocking me and laughing at me while I am on the road to enlightenment.

    Can we please cut out the melodrama? This is not the place for it. If you continue to have an issue with me, I suggest you address it with a private message.

    I will take what little information I have, my open mind, and burning desire to learn elsewhere. Somewhere I can learn without derision from some meglomaniac self-hater that loves to make himself feel good by rubbing what I don't know in my face.
    Making myself feel good by rubbing it in your face? I was correcting a mistake. And you're awfully touchy about a single smiley.

    I have apologized for having offended you, and there is NO need to drag it out, and certainly not to this degree. You're more than welcome to continue posting here.

    But do be warned that if you can't handle criticism, you won't last long regardless.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  25. #24
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    PowermandDL you have offended me deeply with your conduct. I am Diego Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
    Deadlifts are like women, they'll hurt you everytime, but they'll also make you a man. - Me

    Friends don't let friends do dumbell kickbacks. - Me

    ElP is the smartest man in the world. - Gyno Rhino

    A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls. -- Dan Quayle

    If do right, no can defense. -- Mr. Miyagi

    Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

    Current FFFA Enforcer

  26. #25
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    *commits seppuku*

    *becomes totally sweet*
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

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