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Thread: Cardio leading to overtraining?

  1. #1
    Reborn hero Sinep's Avatar
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    I'm wondering wether doing cardio the day next to my back or leg workout going to overtrain it since I can really feel the soreness.
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  2. #2
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Depends--

    You really aren't using the same metabolic pathways or muscle fibers if you're doing endurance cardio.

    To be honest with you, I don't think its that big of an issue. If anything, it might aid in your recovery.

    Something to think about, anyway

    Power

  3. #3
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Oh Powerman, you dissapoint me. You are one of the people on this site with a decent command of physiology, yet you are quite incorrect. Your training will dictate your results. The S.A.I.D. principal. If you train for endurance, your muscles will adapt to it. Your medium twitch fibers (IIa) will become much like slow twitch fibers (I) in makeup. Strength training and aerobic training are in direct opposition to each other. You CAN do both, but you will maximize neither by doing both. A muscle fiber which is maximally adapted to aerobic training is essentially the polar opposite of a muscle fiber adapted for strength. So, if you want the biggest, strongest muscles possible, you will limit your aerobic training. Again, you can do both and improve at both, but you will limit what you can do with either form of training by doing both. For health purposes, I think one SHOULD do both, but we all know that most of us are not in this for our health........

  4. #4
    Reborn hero Sinep's Avatar
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    But you're missing the question Chris... I asked about doing threadmill after my deadlift day (spinal erector = burning dead). I could only run 7min1/2 because of the soreness ... can't be good can it?
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  5. #5
    Tuna Freak Frankster's Avatar
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    I"d say no it isn't .... do some other kind of cardio.. stairmaster?.. bike?
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    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Sinep said,
    But you're missing the question Chris... I asked about doing threadmill after my deadlift day (spinal erector = burning dead

    *** LOL, anything to make Powerman look foolish huh Chris
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  7. #7
    Porn Star YatesNightBlade's Avatar
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    Sinep, I wouldn't worry about your back recovering. I think Leg soreness is an issue though.

    When I dieted last year I used to train legs on a Monday and do some Bike work on the Tuesday. I lost some noticable size off my legs. I now give my legs a couple of days to recover and only do speed/incline walks.
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  8. #8
    Soon to be lean... Joe Black's Avatar
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    Sinep...

    I think you would definetely affect back or leg recovery by performing cardio the day after for sure..

    Whats more important..

    Workout recovery or cardio activity ?

    I say workout recovery

  9. #9
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by chris mason
    Oh Powerman, you dissapoint me. You are one of the people on this site with a decent command of physiology, yet you are quite incorrect. Your training will dictate your results. The S.A.I.D. principal. If you train for endurance, your muscles will adapt to it. Your medium twitch fibers (IIa) will become much like slow twitch fibers (I) in makeup. Strength training and aerobic training are in direct opposition to each other. You CAN do both, but you will maximize neither by doing both. A muscle fiber which is maximally adapted to aerobic training is essentially the polar opposite of a muscle fiber adapted for strength. So, if you want the biggest, strongest muscles possible, you will limit your aerobic training. Again, you can do both and improve at both, but you will limit what you can do with either form of training by doing both. For health purposes, I think one SHOULD do both, but we all know that most of us are not in this for our health........
    Ok, you want some physiology command, here it comes:

    He asked if it would hurt him to do cardio after his heavy weight training.

    I said yes, and that it may in fact aid in recovery.

    Why? Well, main reason being, he's not activating the fibers or metabolic pathways that were previously stressed. Ok, so they're resting while he's doing cardio. True, there may be some issues regarding total energy usage, but I don't think it'll be an issue for the duration he's talking about. That being said regarding the original question, I'll move on.

    For the very SAID principle you mentioned, he won't be causing any adaptations in the previously trained fibers because he won't be stimulating them. As long as his cardio work is being kept short, and weight training is the lion's share of his program, there won't be any issues regarding aerobic adaptations vs. glycolytic adaptations in any fibers. The only ones that would be susceptible to aerobic adaptation are the type II oxidative, and they will only do so under *massive* endurance protocols, when the ST fibers actually require their assistance. A few light cardio workouts aren't sufficient to cause this, especially if weight training is the primary stimulus.

    Thirdly, light stimulation of a muscle that has been trained recently, including mild aerobic workouts, can actually aid in recovery and help speed repair of the said muscle. This occurs by increasing blood flow and general metabolic activity in the area. Increased blood flow allows faster removal of damaged tissue as well as greater access to metabolites and substrates required for repair. Its the concept of "active rest."

    Hope this cleared things up.

    Power

  10. #10
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Let me ask you a question, when you are lifting a heavy weight and perform 10 reps at or near your limit, do you think that your type I fibers are contracting or not?

    You don't target specific fibers when training, that is a bodybuilding myth. Read the following excerpts below:


    Olympic Champions are Oddballs
    If you want to win an Olympic medal in the 100 meter dash, you had better be born with about 80% fast twitch fibers! Want to win the Olympic marathon? Put in an order for 80% slow twitch fibers in your quads. The fast twitch fibers benefit the absolute sprinter because they reach peak tension much faster than their slow twitch counterparts. Gram for gram, the two types are not different in the amount of force they produce, only the rate of force production. So, having a lot of fast twitch fibers only makes a difference when the time available for force production is very limited (milliseconds), like the brief time the foot is in contact with the ground during a sprint, or a long jump. It makes no difference to the powerlifter. In cycling, the only event that they are decidedly advantageous for is the match sprint, analogous to the track 100 meter dash, but with more anticipatory tactics and theatrics. For the pure endurance athlete, it is slow twitch fibers that are needed. These fibers give up lightning speed for fatigue resistance. Lots of mitochondria and more capillaries surrounding each fiber make them more adept at using oxygen to generate ATP without lactate accumulation and fuel repeated contractions, like the 240 or so in a 2000 meter rowing race, or the 15,000 plus in a marathon.

    For the athletic community, the important information is this. It does appear that pure fast (Type IIb) fibers can transition to "hybrid" (Type IIa) fibers with chronic endurance training. Biopsies of elite endurance athletes reveal that after years of training, they have almost no IIb fibers, but often have a significant percentage of the intermediate, IIa fibers. BUT, the majority of the available research suggests that Type IIa fibers do not transition to Type I. This is the more accurate way of saying what I said at the end of Part I of the Fiber type discussion.


    So you see Powerman, you are quite wrong in your assumption that you are using different muscle fibers when training with weights or endurance exercise, you are not, the fibers just adapt differently. As for the active rest thing, I really don't buy into it when one wants to maximize their weightlifting potential. I think a nice walk would be a fine way to achieve the calorie burning effect he is out for without taxing the muscles to any appreciable degree (we'll call this "not very active rest" ).

  11. #11
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    the overtraining and negitive effects of to much cardio is something i am quite worried about as although i want to increase my muscle mass i am training for joining the military and am more of a cross trainer. I train 3-4 cardio sessions a week for a duration of 30-50 mins at one time, is this to much to totally effect my gains? and is circuit training (sit-ups, press-ups etc) counted as an aerobic session? and will one session of this a week heavily effect my gains? as Bruce Lee used to do tons of aerobic and circuit training as well as weights and had an incredible physique.
    Thanks to anyone who can help

    Tuttle.

  12. #12
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Bruce Lee was incredible indeed, incredibly skinny (albeit ripped). He was a very SMALL man, and if you saw him in person and he was wearing a shirt, you would NOT be impressed. Now, don't get me wrong, he was an incredible martial artist and athlete, but not really a physique to aspire to be like in my opinion.

  13. #13
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    Bruce lee was a scrawny mofo.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Yaz's Avatar
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    Sinep there is no soreness, you're just a sissygirl. Now I'ma kill you, boy.

    Actually, as a personal thing I did some light intensity cardio after my leg days almost all the time... eventhough sore as a biatch, and my legs grew quite well.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    I think you should see the doctor Sinep, this has been something bothering you for awhile and it's obviously not going away.
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  16. #16
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by chris mason
    Let me ask you a question, when you are lifting a heavy weight and perform 10 reps at or near your limit, do you think that your type I fibers are contracting or not?

    You don't target specific fibers when training, that is a bodybuilding myth. Read the following excerpts below:


    Olympic Champions are Oddballs
    If you want to win an Olympic medal in the 100 meter dash, you had better be born with about 80% fast twitch fibers! Want to win the Olympic marathon? Put in an order for 80% slow twitch fibers in your quads. The fast twitch fibers benefit the absolute sprinter because they reach peak tension much faster than their slow twitch counterparts. Gram for gram, the two types are not different in the amount of force they produce, only the rate of force production. So, having a lot of fast twitch fibers only makes a difference when the time available for force production is very limited (milliseconds), like the brief time the foot is in contact with the ground during a sprint, or a long jump. It makes no difference to the powerlifter. In cycling, the only event that they are decidedly advantageous for is the match sprint, analogous to the track 100 meter dash, but with more anticipatory tactics and theatrics. For the pure endurance athlete, it is slow twitch fibers that are needed. These fibers give up lightning speed for fatigue resistance. Lots of mitochondria and more capillaries surrounding each fiber make them more adept at using oxygen to generate ATP without lactate accumulation and fuel repeated contractions, like the 240 or so in a 2000 meter rowing race, or the 15,000 plus in a marathon.

    For the athletic community, the important information is this. It does appear that pure fast (Type IIb) fibers can transition to "hybrid" (Type IIa) fibers with chronic endurance training. Biopsies of elite endurance athletes reveal that after years of training, they have almost no IIb fibers, but often have a significant percentage of the intermediate, IIa fibers. BUT, the majority of the available research suggests that Type IIa fibers do not transition to Type I. This is the more accurate way of saying what I said at the end of Part I of the Fiber type discussion.


    So you see Powerman, you are quite wrong in your assumption that you are using different muscle fibers when training with weights or endurance exercise, you are not, the fibers just adapt differently. As for the active rest thing, I really don't buy into it when one wants to maximize their weightlifting potential. I think a nice walk would be a fine way to achieve the calorie burning effect he is out for without taxing the muscles to any appreciable degree (we'll call this "not very active rest" ).
    Show me where I said specific fibers were contracting.

    Its the body's mechanism for conserving energy in any activity; ST fibers contract first, followed by FT. I'm not getting into the entire discussion about the role of type IIb fibers, but for this discussion, we'll say they're relevant.

    In endurance activities, the ST fibers are the only fibers contracting. As the article states, they are extremely fatigue resistant (and thusly, hypertrophy resistant).

    In slightly anaerobic activities, those using the glycolytic pathway, the IIa fibers now come into play, *along with* the already contracting ST fibers. However, since activities using glycolytic metabolism, including BB style training, are of a relatively short duration (30-90 seconds) the ST fibers aren't active long enough to receive enough stimulus to cause adaptive response.

    In explosive, entirely anaerobic activities using the ATP/CP pathway, the IIb/x fibers are generally accepted to be the main players. These are extremely susceptible to fatigue, and to hypertrophy. This is where Olympic lifters and powerlifters play, using movements that take less than 30 seconds. In these movements, all three types of fibers contract, even ST. But again, the duration of the movement is so short that the IIa and ST fibers aren't stimulated. They activate, yes, but don't receive nearly enough stimulus to cause any adaptation.

    So yeah, you're right that you can't selectively activate fibers. Which is why I specifically listed metabolic pathways as well, since they are intimately linked to which fibers are activated and stimulated. The reasons noted above also give some understanding of why BB style movements lead to growth (because of the biochemical effects of glycolytic metabolism, and the longer duration of the exercise leading to more muscle microtrauma) and OL training leads to power output (short duration, using the body's most potent source of cellular energy, and using the heaviest loads. The fast recruitment of IIb/x fibers also does neat things for the nervous system).

    As far as fiber conversions, I've seen recent research which has shown that *all* athletes eventually lose a good portion of their IIb/x fibers after training for a time. I'm not sure what the implication of this is, but we'll see.

    For IIa's converting to ST, I don't think its possible. However, in *heavily* endurance-trained individuals, the IIa's can become more endurance oriented. They even take on the ATPase isomer found in ST fibers, and may exhibit changes in MHC structure. But light to medium cardio a few times a week won't do it.

    Whether you like active rest or not, that's your *opinion.* Myself and countless others have found it practically invaluable for accelerating muscular and systemic recovery. I'm just tossing out the idea.

    Power

  17. #17
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    I understand what you are saying, but I don't think that you understand my post. The point is that your fibers, all types, will adapt to the stress placed on them. So, if you train aerobically to any appreciable degree, all of your fibers will adapt to varying degrees over time. Now, if this occurs, it will occur at the expense of size and strength (or possible gains thereof). So, I think that any type of strenuous aerobic activity should be avoided and only very, VERY low intensity aerobic types of activities should be performed by the individual trying to maximize his/her size and strength.

    Oh yeah, slow twitch fibers are used in weightlifting, not just IIa or b fibers. You want me to show you where you spoke about specific fibers. Ok:

    "Why? Well, main reason being, he's not activating the fibers or metabolic pathways that were previously stressed. Ok, so they're resting while he's doing cardio"

    So here you are stating that aerobic activity and weightlifting activity will use mutually exclusive fibers, yes or no? Well, that is incorrect, you ARE using type I fibers when lifting with weights, so those same fibers are not resting when doing aerobic work on a different day. Here, read this article:




    Introduction
    Adaptability is a fundamental characteristic of skeletal muscle (and the body in general). The nature of this adaptation can be summarized using the following principle: The cell will adapt in a manner that tends to minimize any movement away from homeostasis, or resting conditions. In exercise physiology we refer to the acute changes that occur in a sytem, organ, or cell during exercise as responses. An example is the increase in heart rate that occurs when we jump up from our chair and start jogging. Those long term changes that occur as a result of repeated bouts of exercise are called adaptations. Cellular adaptations generally involve an increase or decrease in the rate of synthesis of a specific cellular component. All muscle cells are in a constant state of synthesis and degradation. If synthesis rate exceeds degradation rate, an increase in the cellular component occurs. A change in protein synthesis requires a cellular signal. Biologists and physiologists continue to explore the communiction process by which different forms of muscular work induce cellular changes. At the cellular level, there are some theories, but no complete understanding. However, we do know quite a bit about what adaptations do occur, even if we aren't sure how just yet.



    Contrast Between Maximal Strength and Maximal Endurance
    If we could build a skeletal muscle for the purpose of endurance, what would the recipe be? Since the heart is the supreme endurance muscle, let's look at it first.
    Characteristics of Fatigue Resistant Muscle Cells
    Heart cells are smaller in diameter than skeletal muscle cells. This results in very short diffusion distance between oxygen molecules coming from capillaries and the mitochondria where they are used.
    The surrounding network of capillaries is extremely well developed. This characteristic also facililitates even and rapid oxygen distribution to all myocardial cells.
    The mitochondrial density of heart cells is extremely high, 20-25% of cell volume in adults. Mitochondria use oxygen to metabolise food and produce ATP.
    The cytoplasmic enzymes responsible for breaking down fatty acid molecules into 2 carbon fragments that can enter the mitochondria are present in high concentrations.
    Contractile protein makes up about 60% of cell volume. The ATPase subtype found in heart is slower than that seen in skeletal muscle. Consequently, the rate of force development is slower, although absolute tension/cell diameter is the same.
    Heart lactate dehydrogenase, the enzyme that converts pyruvate to lactic acid competes poorly with pyruvate dehydrogenase. This contributes to the very low lactate production in heart cells despite high metabolic flux.
    So, heart cells display almost zero fatiguability due to the tremendous capacity they have to receive and consume oxygen. Fatigue resistance is traded for anaerobic capacity. This is why the heart has little tolerance for oxygen deprivation, or a heart attack. If we want to build a skeletal muscle that is highly fatigue resistant, it must resemble heart muscle in its basic features.
    Now let's build a muscle that is optimized for brief efforts and maximum force production. Here are the characteristics needed.

    Characteristics of Maximal Strength Muscle Cells
    Each muscle cell should contain a high volume of contractile protein. Since oxygen diffusion is not a concern, making the cell diameter larger will help it hold more contractile protein (actin and myosin).
    To make more room for actin and myosin, mitochondrial density should be minimized to that necessary to maintain resting cell function.
    Since fat can only be metabolized aerobically, high levels of fat cleaving enzymes in the cytosol are also unnecessary.
    The capacity for anaerobic glycolysis should be high to allow brief but high capacity energy production without oxygen. The capacity for lactic acid production should be high.

    What you should notice is that these two lists are exactly opposite. The optimal muscle for endurance CAN NEVER be maximally strong. And the muscle fiber that produces the most force CANNOT be optimally developed for endurance as well. The two conditions are mutually exclusive. This is one of the most important concepts to understand when designing a training program.

    Three Points to Remember:

    There are identifiable proteins in the muscle that contribute to its ability to produce high force at high rates (strength and Power).
    There are also identifiable proteins and structural characteristics that confer high fatigue resistance (endurance).
    There is no identifiable specific protein or structure that confers the quality "Strength-Endurance". When we train for strength-endurance, what we are really doing is training in a way that fails to stimulate either strength or endurance adaptations optimally. An example of this "best of neither worlds" approach is circuit training.
    As a coach/athlete, your sucess begins with your ability to accurately understand the muscular demands of your sport. Then, a training program can be designed that will result in muscular development suited to the combination of strength and endurance that your sport requires. Here are two real world examples.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    OK Chris, enough with copy/pasting Stephen Seiler's articles. PowerMan doesn't need to go back to extremely BASIC physiology.

    In my understanding, Type I fibers only come into play with reps above 15 or so and/or a very slow tempo. Let's take a look at a typical bodybuilding set, with (say) 8 reps and a 2-0-2-0 tempo:

    You pick up the weight and perform one rep; at this point some of the IIAís are recruited while the IIBís have not yet been recruited. On rep two, some more IIAís are recruited and fatigued, while the IIBís start to pick up the slack that the fatigued IIAís left. By rep three more IIAís are fatigued and consequently more IIBís are recruited, then you go on to perform 3 more reps. Now, as you go for rep seven, all of the IIAís are fatigued, and all of your IIBís are recruited but are not yet twitching at maximum frequency - they still have some gas left. As you go for rep 8, all of your IIBís are firing at maximum frequency, all of your IIBís are completely fatigued, and finally your IIBís are completely fatigued. You have just reached momentary muscular failure.

    Now, unless all available IIA fibers are fatigued to a point that they can no longer contract, the Type I fibers will not be recruited simply because the oxidative properties of the IIA's are enough to get past the initial "easy" reps before the glycolytic fibers need to be recruited.

    Also, what about the role of myosin heavy chain IIX fibers? If one focuses his/her training around glycolytic fibers then he/she will have more of these fibers because the MHC IIX fibers will be converted to them. Same goes with IIC fibers in that if one focuses on the IIB fibers they will have more IIB's (comparitevely).

    Personally, I think aerobic training is good for general health and has a place in a fat loss regimen, but if you're trying to be a big mofo...then drop it, but not primarily because of the factors Chris mentioned.

  19. #19
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Cackerot69
    OK Chris, enough with copy/pasting Stephen Seiler's articles. PowerMan doesn't need to go back to extremely BASIC physiology.

    In my understanding, Type I fibers only come into play with reps above 15 or so and/or a very slow tempo. Let's take a look at a typical bodybuilding set, with (say) 8 reps and a 2-0-2-0 tempo:

    You pick up the weight and perform one rep; at this point some of the IIAís are recruited while the IIBís have not yet been recruited. On rep two, some more IIAís are recruited and fatigued, while the IIBís start to pick up the slack that the fatigued IIAís left. By rep three more IIAís are fatigued and consequently more IIBís are recruited, then you go on to perform 3 more reps. Now, as you go for rep seven, all of the IIAís are fatigued, and all of your IIBís are recruited but are not yet twitching at maximum frequency - they still have some gas left. As you go for rep 8, all of your IIBís are firing at maximum frequency, all of your IIBís are completely fatigued, and finally your IIBís are completely fatigued. You have just reached momentary muscular failure.

    Now, unless all available IIA fibers are fatigued to a point that they can no longer contract, the Type I fibers will not be recruited simply because the oxidative properties of the IIA's are enough to get past the initial "easy" reps before the glycolytic fibers need to be recruited.

    Also, what about the role of myosin heavy chain IIX fibers? If one focuses his/her training around glycolytic fibers then he/she will have more of these fibers because the MHC IIX fibers will be converted to them. Same goes with IIC fibers in that if one focuses on the IIB fibers they will have more IIB's (comparitevely).

    Personally, I think aerobic training is good for general health and has a place in a fat loss regimen, but if you're trying to be a big mofo...then drop it, but not primarily because of the factors Chris mentioned.
    Type I fibers come into play in *all* contractions-- it can't be avoided.

    The reason that shorter-duration exercise doesn't affect them is exactly that-- its too short. Those fibers have fatigue times ranging from 6 minutes on; if they aren't fatigued, they aren't trained.

    My whole point about this is that you can do aerobic work, as long as its not excessive, and still make muscular gains; as I previously stated, some endurance adaptations even aid in both short-term recovery and long-term hypertrophy (by supplying the support structure for more tissue).

    Its really a moot point, though-- do it if you want. My personal recommendation is to include at least some aerobic- and anaerobic-endurance training (more of the former) in your training at different stages for the best effect.

    Power

  20. #20
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    I think you've been hanging around supertraining too much PowerMan

    If the Type I fibers aren't fatigued then it doesn't matter if they are activiated, not enough stimulation to cause adaptation.

    Btw Chris, those articles are 6 years old. You might wanna try updating your info. New research has shown that although Type IIB fibers become more IIA like and IIA fibers become more I like in that they increase their mitochondrial density to become oxidative, that does NOT mean they lose their ability to produce maximum force. So, it actually a good thing.

  21. #21
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    ...This lad is 15 years old...

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    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Actually, it's 4 years old (from the last update), and that fact doesn't make it incorrect. Actually, I never said that they would lose the ability to contract with maximum force, only that it would limit their ability to improve. The other key factor here involves good old fashioned recovery. Your body can only deal with a finite amount of exercise induced trauma, adding more training to the mix will NOT help matters. Like I said, and have said before, for maximum health, do aerobics, for maximum results, don't (or do an extremely limited low intensity version). It's that simple. Steroid using athletes can get away with it because of the greatly enhanced recovery they receive from the drugs, drug free athletes cannot. Cack, one problem with you is that you are very intelligent an obviously do quite a bit of reading on the topic, however, you have a very limited amount of real world experience with some of the concepts you throw around (due to your young age and lack of experience). If you wish to run and run, and drink 8 gallons of water a day, you may do so, but you will find as you age and gain experience that many of the things you read about don't necessarily translate well into the real world. Like I said, you are smart and articulate for your age, but sometimes your ego outstrips your abilities.

  23. #23
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    Yes - Cack: 'Never bite the hand that feeds you'
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  24. #24
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Actually, it's 4 years old (from the last update), and that fact doesn't make it incorrect. Actually, I never said that they would lose the ability to contract with maximum force, only that it would limit their ability to improve.

    Ummm....... what's the difference? If they're still contracting with maximal force, but have added mitochondria, the fiber can now contract with maximal force AND has greater energy available. Why is that not improvement?

    The other key factor here involves good old fashioned recovery. Your body can only deal with a finite amount of exercise induced trauma, adding more training to the mix will NOT help matters.

    Aerobic training doesn't really induce trauma. Not nearly the same way that weights do.

    Like I said, and have said before, for maximum health, do aerobics, for maximum results, don't (or do an extremely limited low intensity version). It's that simple. Steroid using athletes can get away with it because of the greatly enhanced recovery they receive from the drugs, drug free athletes cannot. Cack, one problem with you is that you are very intelligent an obviously do quite a bit of reading on the topic, however, you have a very limited amount of real world experience with some of the concepts you throw around (due to your young age and lack of experience). If you wish to run and run, and drink 8 gallons of water a day, you may do so, but you will find as you age and gain experience that many of the things you read about don't necessarily translate well into the real world. Like I said, you are smart and articulate for your age, but sometimes your ego outstrips your abilities.

    Yes Cack, you can't know anything; you're just 15.

    Translation: you said something he can't counter.

    Power

  25. #25
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    Jan 2001
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    Moisturizing kimpy's face.
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    Yeah.

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