The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
Latest Article

The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

It’s no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
More Recent Articles
Contrast Training for Size
By: Lee Boyce
An Interview with Marianne Kane of Girls Gone Strong
By: Jordan Syatt
What Supplements Should I be Taking? By: Jay Wainwright
Bench Like a Girl By: Julia Ladewski
Some Thoughts on Building a Big Pull By: Christopher Mason

Facebook Join Facebook Group       Twitter Follow on Twitter       rss Subscribe via RSS
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 31
  1. #1
    Meathead Philosopher Pup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    6,793

    The value of carbs in the diet

    Chris Mason and I have been debating the value of higher carbohydrate diets.

    It is my position that high carbohydrate diets are garbage, by high i mean the RDA recommended 60% caloric intake of carbs. I think they are useless for cutting diets, and if they aren't in conjunction with a lot of protein when someone is bulking, i think they are still useless.

    Basically, unless someone is a couch potato a high carbohydrate, low protein, low fat diet is not very good.

    Chris is gonna state his position then i will come back with some things in a bit more detail.
    May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows you're dead.

  2.    Support Wannabebig and use AtLarge Nutrition Supplements!


  3. #2
    Way below radar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Somewhere between cognitive dissonance and the egocentric dilemma
    Posts
    4,375
    ..depends on your goals and your activity level/what kind of activity. When I'm playing a lot of hockey games/practicing a lot, 50-60% carbohydrates gives me the constant energy that I need to sustain that level of activity...otherwise I run out of gas and don't recover. I suppose it would be similar for someone who's doing serious mountain biking or playing in racquetball tournaments or whatever. ANd then there's just the differences in individual metabolisms to consider...some people do better on higher carbs, others on lower.

    I know that this is mainly a body building site and many people here tend toward the typical BB diet, but there's a place for all kinds of diet variations depending on what you're doing.

    I could give all to Time except - except
    What I myself have held. But why declare
    The things forbidden that while the Customs slept
    I have crossed to Safety with? For I am There,
    And what I would not part with I have kept.

    --Robert Frost

  4. #3
    Senior Member Wizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Basingstoke
    Posts
    2,240
    In normal people, the problem isn't the carbs, it's the quality of the carbs. If you add some fiber to your diet, your restrict the chances of gaining fat. There are certainly persons that handle poorly the carbs, thus they have to reduce their carb intake.

    Then, it does not always depend on the activity, whether you need to consume lots of carbs or not.
    Carbohydrates for extended burning don't last too long. That means that you soon run through carbs and glycogen in short order, so something else will be needed anyway.
    The best time for consuming carbs is before a short, high intensity session of weight training or hit.

    I would never suggest a diet that consists of less than 25% of protein and 25% of fat. And even in this case, when you have to consume an equal to, or even more than 50% of calories that come from carbs, it would be better to prefer low GI complex carbs which contain fiber, vits and phytochemicals.

  5. #4
    Meathead Philosopher Pup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    6,793
    But do you eat that % of carbs when you aren't competing in hockey...and, metabolism affects total caloric intake, i've yet to see solid proof that lipolysis is macronutrient dependent. Another thing, do you feel that an individual who has a 60% carb/15% protein/25% fat diet is going to sustain a substantial amount of exercise induced hypertrophy, ya need aminos to build muscles, i mean sure we all aren't bodybuilders, but anyone who wants to increase their lbm and lower their bodyfat is not going do so with such a high imbalance between their carbs and protein.
    May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows you're dead.

  6. #5
    Equal Opportunity Offender Budiak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    The discard pile.
    Posts
    0
    What exactly is 'low protein'? My most successful cycles, both cutting and bulking, have always had higher amounts of carbs than protein. Mind you my average cut was about 250 grams of carbs, 170 grams of protein and 40 grams of fat (when I was about 8%bf and 150lbs).

  7. #6
    Meathead Philosopher Pup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    6,793
    I hold to the idea that below 30% protein is low protein. I do believe that when bulking carbs can be higher simply cause carbohydrate rich foods are more economically feasible than protein rich foods, sweet potatoes are cheap, steak isn't.
    May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows you're dead.

  8. #7
    is numero uno Saint Patrick's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    6,557
    I'm with pup on this one, but I'm still waiting to hear from Mr. Mason.
    Age:30
    Height: 5'7"
    Weight: Not Big Enough
    ______________________

    “Take things as they are. Punch when you have to punch. Kick when you have to kick.” — Bruce Lee

  9. #8
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    On the Night Train
    Posts
    3,336
    Originally posted by Just_a_pup
    i've yet to see solid proof that lipolysis is macronutrient dependent.
    I'm assuming you forgot a 'not' here. Otherwise, you're arguing against your own premise. Of course, lipolysis IS macronutrient dependent. It's well established that insulin, being in the 'fed' state (which occurs when liver glycogen stores are full), and a host of other things inhibit lipolysis. That doesn't mean that the macronutrient ratio of one's diet is, on the whole, going to have a (large) effect on weight/fat loss. There is little evidence that, given equivalent calorie levels, a high carbohydrate diet(50%+) is any worse (or better) than a lower carbohydrate one (or, further, that the source of these carbs matters). There is plenty of evidence to the contrary, however.

    There is also scant evidence to support the notion that the ridiculous amounts of protein (over 1g/lb bodyweight) that bodybuilders routinely consume is necessary--and there is some evidence it may, in fact, be counterproductive. Lemmon's figure of 0.8g/lb should be plenty.

    Plenty of people have gotten lean using high carb/low fat diets. Plenty of people have gotten lean on low carb/high fat diets. The failure of higher carb diets comes when people don't pay attention to their overall calorie intake, which is what Joe Schmoe tends to do. Oh, there's no fat in those SnackWell cookies? That must mean I can eat a whole box.

    We tend to think of Sisyphus as a tragic hero, condemned by the gods to shoulder his rock sweatily up the mountain, and again up the mountain, forever. The truth is that Sisyphus is in love with the rock. He cherishes every roughness and every ounce of it. He talks to it, sings to it. It has become the mysterious Other. He even dreams of it as he sleepwalks upward. Life is unimaginable without it, looming always above him like a huge gray moon. He doesn’t realize that at any moment he is permitted to step aside, let the rock hurtle to the bottom, and go home.

    Parables and Portraits, Stephen Mitchell

  10. #9
    Senior Member Wizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Basingstoke
    Posts
    2,240
    What I can say is that changing the body composition (the ratio of muscle mass/adipose tissue) is way more important than just losing weight and that the first is achieved easier and faster by following a more balanced diet.
    After all we do not argue over simple thermodynamic laws.
    Last edited by Wizard; 12-26-2002 at 09:30 PM.

  11. #10
    Meathead Philosopher Pup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    6,793
    You're right B&I...i forgot the "not"

    The thing about people losing weight with low fat/high carb diets is that other than just being skinnier versions of the same flat, flabby individual is that they have nothing to show for their efforts, as Wizard said, its about body composition change, and that comes from balanced macronutrient ratios, especially for people who want to change their lifestyle and gradually make changes, not yo-yo or cut up in 12 weeks for a contest.
    May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows you're dead.

  12. #11
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    On the Night Train
    Posts
    3,336
    Originally posted by just_a_pup
    You're right B&I...i forgot the "not"

    The thing about people losing weight with low fat/high carb diets is that other than just being skinnier versions of the same flat, flabby individual is that they have nothing to show for their efforts, as Wizard said, its about body composition change, and that comes from balanced macronutrient ratios, especially for people who want to change their lifestyle and gradually make changes, not yo-yo or cut up in 12 weeks for a contest.
    I wasn't talking about 'regular' folks. Up until 10 years ago or so bodybuilders were sticking primarily to high carb/low fat (Of course, the low carb craze has waxed and waned any number of times over the past hundred years). They weren't skinny and flabby. So, it certainly works. Most regular people are just skinnier versions of their flabby selves no matter what they do-- high or low carb. Look at the average adherent of the Atkins' diet (or variations thereof); I doubt you'd mistake him for a bodybuilder.

    I certainly agree with your last subordinate clause, though.

    We tend to think of Sisyphus as a tragic hero, condemned by the gods to shoulder his rock sweatily up the mountain, and again up the mountain, forever. The truth is that Sisyphus is in love with the rock. He cherishes every roughness and every ounce of it. He talks to it, sings to it. It has become the mysterious Other. He even dreams of it as he sleepwalks upward. Life is unimaginable without it, looming always above him like a huge gray moon. He doesn’t realize that at any moment he is permitted to step aside, let the rock hurtle to the bottom, and go home.

    Parables and Portraits, Stephen Mitchell

  13. #12
    Meathead Philosopher Pup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    6,793
    Are you sure that the bodybuilders were doing that B&I...if that is the case they would have lost a ton of lbm everytime they dieted. It would seem to me that they'd figure it out the first or second time they did it, i could be wrong, but i doubt they just figured out in the last ten years that you need a lot of protein when contest dieting to preserve lbm, unless of course you use the ketogenic approach which is also muscle sparing.
    May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows you're dead.

  14. #13
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Grace
    Posts
    6,187
    I like to get a combination of all three in all meals, with some added fibre (fruit/veg) in selected ones (usually cause it can be quite impractical at times).
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  15. #14
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Grace
    Posts
    6,187
    Originally posted by just_a_pup
    Are you sure that the bodybuilders were doing that B&I...if that is the case they would have lost a ton of lbm everytime they dieted. It would seem to me that they'd figure it out the first or second time they did it, i could be wrong, but i doubt they just figured out in the last ten years that you need a lot of protein when contest dieting to preserve lbm, unless of course you use the ketogenic approach which is also muscle sparing.
    Rob, when protein is low, carbs are protein sparing, so a high carb, low protein diet won't necessarily mean muscle loss.

    I doubt it'd help matters though.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  16. #15
    3:16
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    4,254
    most of the arguments here have been based on weight loss as a reaosn to use either high/lo fat/carb diets.

    Some of us are more concerend with putting on weight (lean weight) in a calorific excess.

    so before you say this diet is the best you have to consider weigth gianing people as well as people cutting.
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

  17. #16
    Senior Member Wizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Basingstoke
    Posts
    2,240
    Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy


    Rob, when protein is low, carbs are protein sparing, so a high carb, low protein diet won't necessarily mean muscle loss.

    I doubt it'd help matters though.
    Carbs are protein sparing mostly on diets where the caloric intake is higher than the maintainance levels, i.e on bulking diets but when it comes to the fat loss diets, protein intake has to be high. Pup said that high carb intake is useless for cutting diets and this is exactly what I can say too.

  18. #17
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    On the Night Train
    Posts
    3,336
    Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy


    Rob, when protein is low, carbs are protein sparing, so a high carb, low protein diet won't necessarily mean muscle loss.

    I doubt it'd help matters though.
    High carb does not necessarily mean low protein. I think protein is important, but again much above about 1g/lb is pointless--unless you're using androgens.

    I think some of our disagreement stems from sloppy terminology (mostly on my part). When I was referring to the 'high carb/low fat' diets of bodybuilders in the 80's I was thinking of something along the lines of:
    50% carbs
    30% protein
    20% fat

    which, as far as I'm aware, was a fairly popular approach. It's not impossible I'm mistaken, though. Whatever the case may be, such a diet should work reasonably well.
    Last edited by Blood&Iron; 12-27-2002 at 01:34 PM.

    We tend to think of Sisyphus as a tragic hero, condemned by the gods to shoulder his rock sweatily up the mountain, and again up the mountain, forever. The truth is that Sisyphus is in love with the rock. He cherishes every roughness and every ounce of it. He talks to it, sings to it. It has become the mysterious Other. He even dreams of it as he sleepwalks upward. Life is unimaginable without it, looming always above him like a huge gray moon. He doesn’t realize that at any moment he is permitted to step aside, let the rock hurtle to the bottom, and go home.

    Parables and Portraits, Stephen Mitchell

  19. #18
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Grace
    Posts
    6,187
    Originally posted by Wizard
    Pup said that high carb intake is useless for cutting diets and this is exactly what I can say too.
    I wouldn't say totally useless.

    But for getting from quite lean to leaner i doubt they're ideal.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  20. #19
    Senior Member Titan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    465
    what sort of ratio would you recommend for a cutting diet Robboe?

  21. #20
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Grace
    Posts
    6,187
    Depends really.

    If a person has had success with a particular type of diet before, then i wouldn't tell them to stop.

    But starting with a bit from every macro and reducing overall calories as you go is a good start. Once you get into really lean territory (say, 10% and below), carbs can become more of a problem (although not with all) so reducing them specifically and maybe carb-cycling would be a good idea.

    The ratios themselves aren't of much importance, but they can be useful as a guide to get you started.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  22. #21
    Senior Member Wizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Basingstoke
    Posts
    2,240
    Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
    Depends really.

    Once you get into really lean territory (say, 10% and below), carbs can become more of a problem (although not with all) so reducing them specifically and maybe carb-cycling would be a good idea.

    It would certainly be a great idea.

  23. #22
    Ecoli die
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Colorado!
    Posts
    741
    I've got to say that I've seen a lot more people on high carb diets do very well in cutting by doing cardio exercises.

    Assuming you are not dramatically under your daily caloric needs, once you reach a certain level of protein intake (enough to build your base cells and hormones) there is no reason for the body to address lbm as a source of fuel any more or less due to high or low protein intake.

    The body might actually be more likely to address lbm as a source of fuel if you do not have enough carbohydrates (i.e. you are glucose deficient such as on a high protein diet). This would be especially true if you are going into anaerobic respiration due to the slow nature of fat energy production.

    I don't think you can grow lbm to any significant extent on a low protein diet though (such as the 20ish % fda guidelines).

    Incidentally, there are many many factors outside of the glycemic index that cause fluxuations (spikes) in insulin levels.
    Now in pain, only working out the walking sticks.

  24. #23
    Senior Member Wizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Basingstoke
    Posts
    2,240
    Originally posted by Tiare
    I've got to say that I've seen a lot more people on high carb diets do very well in cutting by doing cardio exercises.
    production.
    Maybe only if they do HIT because they do need many carbs before a HIT session. In any other circumstances they would slow down fat loss because they would be losing a significant amount of muscle mass along with the fat. (reduced metabolism)

  25. #24
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Grace
    Posts
    6,187
    Originally posted by Tiare
    I don't think you can grow lbm to any significant extent on a low protein diet though (such as the 20ish % fda guidelines).
    I cannot remember his user name, but there's some guy who posts (albeit infrequently) on this board who is quite a size who claims to only eat about 60g protein a day. He doesn't eat meat either.

    Just food for thought.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  26. #25
    3:16
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    4,254
    what happend to mr mason?
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •