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Thread: Failure to go to Failure???

  1. #26
    Senior Member Craig James's Avatar
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    Right, Chris. And I have a question for people who go to what they call 1rep less then failure - How do you know that it is 1rep short of failure??? Oh sure, it feels like you might not be able to get another rep if you tried, but the body can fool you so easily into believing this, that you never try to push beyond this spot...

  2. #27
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    "My argument was based upon the principles presented by Powerman."

    Hence me saying "Let's look at this a different way".

    "In addition, you are making the erroneous assumption that the nervous system requires anywhere near the same amount of "recovery" time that muscles do."

    Not at all. The nervous system takes much longer to recover, but if your nervous system isn't recovered you aren't going to be able to stimulate growth of the target muscle.

    "When one "fails" in weightlifting it has nothing to do with the nervous system, your nerves are still firing away nicely, so why do you think that training to failure causes greater "stress" to the nervous system?"

    Actually, it is a well-established fact that the closer to failure you become the frequency of motor units firing decreases, one study actually showed that after just 30 seconds of TUT firing frequency decreased 80%. Eventually the nervous system just can't twitch MU's to sustain the effort, and you fail (with the given workload). Also prolonged failure training may cause the nervous system to go into a state of "inhibition" to portect itself from further stress, which would mean that it would fail pre-maturely (causing the failure) which is one of the effects of overtraining (just to illustate that the nervous system can cause failure).

    "Oh yeah, ,myself, and everyone who trains in the manner I espouse has made better gains ...."

    Compared to?

  3. #28
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by chris mason
    I have never said anything about it ? Do you have recollection problems? You are also demonstrating your lack of comprehension when you ask why I mentioned Maddog and Yates.

    Answer this, if the stimulus for hypertrophy is "a function of muscular tension per unit time" as you say, why would taking a set to failure not be superior? Let's use an example, a trainee loads 100 lbs on the bench press. He can perform 10 reps to failure with this weight. He performs each rep with a 2 second up/ 4 down cadence. So, if he stops at 8 reps, he has placed his muscles under the amount of tension created by lifting 100 lbs for 48 seconds. If he goes to failure, he has placed the muscle under tension for 60 seconds. Let us say that this trainee can perform 4 sets per session without running the risk of overtraining. So, by stopping short of failure, he has achieved 192 seconds of muscular tension with the 100 lb load. If he had gone to failure, he would have achieved 240 seconds of muscular tension, and by your definition, received more stimulus for growth. Hmmmmm......
    Why not just slow the set down if you need more TUT?

    Power
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  4. #29
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by chris mason
    My argument was based upon the principles presented by Powerman. In addition, you are making the erroneous assumption that the nervous system requires anywhere near the same amount of "recovery" time that muscles do. When one "fails" in weightlifting it has nothing to do with the nervous system, your nerves are still firing away nicely, so why do you think that training to failure causes greater "stress" to the nervous system?


    Oh yeah, ,myself, and everyone who trains in the manner I espouse has made better gains .....
    THe nervous system may not fail per se, but his point is still valid. Going to failure does place great stress on the nervous system, and that is a big part of the recovery factor.

    And for all your talk, you've yet to prove once that your gains are better. Just proving you can *get* gains doesn't mean they're superior.

    Power
    Last edited by PowerManDL; 07-17-2001 at 12:49 AM.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  5. #30
    Mystic Eric
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    why are you all ripping on chris? he may not be 100% correct all the time because he is not god, but he gives really good info that is very productive for a lot of us. chris is one of the most intelligent persons on this board, and he has good reference to scientific knowledge, and he has the experience to back it up. life, that comment was really useless and counter-productive to the debate.

    cack, you are quite an intelligent boy. hell, you are bigger than me as well. but what confuses me is that your training philosophies change week to week. i remember talking to you a few months ago, and you said that any rep ranges that are high are useless. now you say both are good. before you also said that training past failure is the only way to go, now you have changed your mind as well. what i am trying to say is that you shouldn't keep ripping on chris when you are learning something new everyday. as you can see, your training knowledge becomes altered day to day.

    now continue with this debate with no personal attacks

    and like chicken daddy says, all this scientific stuff means a damn when you are training hard, smart, and eating enough
    Last edited by Mystic Eric; 07-17-2001 at 01:17 AM.

  6. #31
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by the terminator
    why are you all ripping on chris? he may not be 100% correct all the time, but he gives really good info that is very productive for a lot of us. life, that comment was really useless and counter-productive to the debate.


    and like chicken daddy says, all this scientific stuff means a damn when you are training hard, smart, and eating enough
    Look, its not about ripping on Chris. I don't ever say anything about him. I just point out a few facts, ask him to support what he says, and I'm picking on *him*?

    I'm just proposing an alternate viewpoint, one that apparently he can't accept. Between the two of us, who takes it to a personal level first?

    That's all I have to say about the matter-- if the questions about training continue, I'll answer, but not otherwise. I'm really getting sick of this crap happening in every thread.

    Power
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  7. #32
    Mystic Eric
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL


    Look, its not about ripping on Chris. I don't ever say anything about him. I just point out a few facts, ask him to support what he says, and I'm picking on *him*?

    I'm just proposing an alternate viewpoint, one that apparently he can't accept. Between the two of us, who takes it to a personal level first?

    That's all I have to say about the matter-- if the questions about training continue, I'll answer, but not otherwise. I'm really getting sick of this crap happening in every thread.

    Power
    power, sorry if you thought that i meant you. you have been really level headed with your arguments. i wasn't mentioning you that was ripping on him. 'cause you don't. but i'm talking about other people who i won't need to mention and yes power, you are one of the most intelligent people on the board as well..

  8. #33
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    Originally posted by the terminator
    cack, you are quite an intelligent boy. hell, you are bigger than me as well. but what confuses me is that your training philosophies change week to week. i remember talking to you a few months ago, and you said that any rep ranges that are high are useless. now you say both are good. before you also said that training past failure is the only way to go, now you have changed your mind as well. what i am trying to say is that you shouldn't keep ripping on chris when you are learning something new everyday. as you can see, your training knowledge becomes altered day to day.
    Not at all. My advice will be different depending on the person. I advised you to use low rep sets because they are the *best* for size and strength. What you don't realize is that as soon as you hit a real plateau guess what I would have done? I would have had you go on a higher rep more aerobic routine. Training past failure is the only way to go? Not at all. I was doing a routine in which I was going past failure (very low volume), but I never said it's the *only* way. As you can see, my advice varies from person to person not day to day. Just to clear that up
    Last edited by Cackerot69; 07-17-2001 at 02:19 AM.

  9. #34
    Mystic Eric
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    cack, i vividly remember that when i hit a plateau, and wanted to up the reps, you said it was a bad idea. you said that if you hit a plateau, do even lower than previously done. i'm not saying this to attack you by any means. i'm just saying that you're gaining more knowledge everyday, and what you say one day, could be wrong to yourself in a few weeks or so

  10. #35
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    I don't feel attacked at all, and yes I do recall saying this to you and I have found it: "Increasing your volume and decreasing your rest periods will most likely only hinder *you*."

    I stand by that statement now. Term, you are fookin skinny and you don't eat enough to grow. There is no way in hell you have reached a state or irrational hypertrophy (the reason for upping reps and decreasing rest periods to break a plateau). The reason you are not growing is because you don't fookin eat enough. Again, this is for you individually.

    And yes, I am learning more everyday, and I plan to for years to come.

  11. #36
    Mystic Eric
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    Originally posted by Cackerot69

    I stand by that statement now. Term, you are fookin skinny and you don't eat enough to grow. There is no way in hell you have reached a state or irrational hypertrophy (the reason for upping reps and decreasing rest periods to break a plateau). The reason you are not growing is because you don't fookin eat enough. Again, this is for you individually.
    cack, you're kinda right. i wasn't eating enough. and not frequently enough either. and i was wrong and foolish a few months ago. i stayed at like 140 for a long time. but what makes you think that i'm not gaining right now?

  12. #37
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    I don't know if you're gaining now or not, if so great...if not then eat more
    Last edited by Cackerot69; 07-17-2001 at 02:23 AM.

  13. #38
    Porn Star YatesNightBlade's Avatar
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    I never train to failure and I do around 17 sets per body part .... including biceps.
    * * * * * * * * *
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  14. #39
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    Originally posted by YatesNightBlade
    I never train to failure and I do around 17 sets per body part .... including biceps.
    WOWZERS!! Are you kiddin'?!

  15. #40
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    I would have guessed differently Yates, but thanks for answering.


    Cack, muscular fatigue, or failure, has nothing to do with nervous system degradation. That is complete bullsh*t! What happens is that there is a relative deficit of ATP in the muscle and the sodium/potassium pump farts out. When this occurs, ionic imbalances occur and the muscle is no longer responsive to nervous stimulation. Get it? The nervous system is still firing, but the muscles cannot respond.

    Powerman, what do you mean that my gains are not better??? I will never understand you. Does the fact that I can take your maximum bench press and toss it around for rep after rep prove that I have made superior gains? Or, would it be the fact that by the age of 20, about 3 years after I began training, I was able to take any of your current maximums and throw them around for reps? What is it? Or, will it be when Craig James is outlifting you in about 2 months? You are one strange man....... Or, should we compare say our flexed upper arms, or quads, or anything (other than calves)?


    Oh yeah, thanks for the support Terminator, I appreciate it. Actually, I am not aware of EVER being wrong in a post concerning weightlifting. I am certainly not God, and have plenty of flaws, but when it comes to weightlifting, I am 1000% confident that what I have to say is correct and the best way to do things.

  16. #41
    MulletII - AKA Ninja Boner Gyno Rhino's Avatar
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    The more I read these arguments, the more I support Chris. His views, although really damn stubborn, never change. Alot of you guys just jump on the newest fiber type study and proclaim it to be godsent. Chris, I don't agree with you alot of the time, but damn, you stick to your guns and you've got the **** to prove it. Kudos to Chris.

  17. #42
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    Chris, muscular fatigue, or failure, has a lot to do with nervous system degredation. That is not complete bullsh*t! What happens is a lot of things, all of which come into play to differing degrees depending on rep range, tempo, volume, etc. For instance, a 1RM barely fatigued the muscle, but you if you fail the attempt, what happened? The nervous system failed. I'm not saying nervous system degeneration is the only cause but it does contribute along with lactic acid accumulation, shortage of ATP, shortage of phosphocreatine, accumlation of inorganic phosphate etc all are factors as well. When we fail all of these factors contribute, but nervous system fatigue is a huge factor, specifically the peripheral nervous system and by failing at that last attempt you are putting unecessary strain on the PNF (that rep isn't required for hypertrophy, and actually does little to aid in growth) which makes you need more time to recover. More recovery time = less workouts = less progression = less muscle growth.

    I don't know why you are always ragging on PowerMan...it's not about where you are now, it's how far you've come. I may be 175lbs, but when I started I was 115lbs...sure I ain't huge but that's a damn good improvement. I was max benching 65lbs when I started, now I'm putting up 195 for 3 and maxing about 200-205...sure I ain't no PowerManDL (ha ha), but that pretty much kills you saying I have nothing to show for it? You go ahead and be Mr. fortune teller and BS about how if I followed all of your Arthur Jones that I'd be even bigger and stronger. Say what you want about you being all superior to everyone, I really hope it boosts your self confidence or whatever or makes you sleep better at night...

  18. #43
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Actually, all of this crap makes me sleep worse at night, but, I feel it is important, so I do it.

    Now, about ragging on Powerman, what planet are you from??? Who has been asking me where my progress??? Who keeps digging me to show how my methods work? Don't be a COMPLETE MORON! Hey Cack, you are 15 years old, a good portion of your gains are due to the fact that you are growing, not the efficacy of your training. Even if you had never trained, you would have gotten larger muscles and grown over the same period. Think of the actor Anthony Michael Hall, you know Breakfast Club etc., is that film he was a complete squid, but now as an adult he looks quite a bit different.

    When one fails on a 1 rep maximum, it is not nervous system failure, it is due to the fact that the maximum force the muscle is capable of exerting is insufficient to move the weight, that is all..... It is not as if the nervous system wasn't signaling the muscles to contract....

  19. #44
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Gentlemen...

    This discussion has degenerated into a very typical 'one way is better than another' argument that is all too common among us.

    This will be the downfall of the Iron Game. Just as Plers, BBers, OLers and strongmen all think the veiw of the Iron Game they have is appropriate, this degerneration doesn't accomplish anything but to divide us.

    We all know the One Truth about lifting... that progression is necessary for strength increases, and that strength increases are necessary (for our purposes) for growth.

    How you get to the point where you are progressing depends on a host of factors, not the least of which are your individual goals.

    Training to failure, for me, at this time, would not be optimal. I am training to be at peak strength in 3 particular lifts in 9 weeks. Training to failure would NOT be the best way for me to do that. A progressive periodized routine is a very effective way to do that.

    If I'm trying to get as big as I can as fast as I can, training to failure may very well be a very effective way to do that. A high set count (low rep count) periodized routine probably is not.

  20. #45
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Right, and you are a precocious genius ....

    Here, I will demonstrate my lack of knowledge of the nervous system. The nervous system has 2 principal parts, the central and peripheral nervous systems. The peripheral nervous system has 2 functional subdivisions, the afferent and the efferent. Gee, that sure was great. Actually Cack, I have been speaking of the peripheral nervous system all along, not sure what you are thinking....

    If you haven't grown at all since you started working out, I hope you do grow a little soon. Maybe the weightlifting is stunting your growth.....

    With regards to Tryska, I merely noted the fact that bench pressing 65 lbs (women included) is not compelling proof that "wave" whatever you all were discussing, is a valid and effective principal. I see you are trying your hardest to pull others into this argument by painting me as the "big bully", but it really is senseless because anyone with a modicum of sense will know better than to buy into those tactics.

    If training to failure is not the best way to increase one's strength, especially in a expedient manner, then that is news to me. Here's to you reaching your goals with your methods...... Hey Cack, I have an idea, why not read a few more useless studies and see if that makes your lifts go up.
    Last edited by chris mason; 07-17-2001 at 01:57 PM.

  21. #46
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    This will be the downfall of the Iron Game. Just as Plers, BBers, OLers and strongmen all think the veiw of the Iron Game they have is appropriate, this degerneration doesn't accomplish anything but to divide us.

    -----------

    Paul, what the heck is that? Actually, competing ideas have always been one of the hallmarks of the evolution of life. I really get tired of you "flower children" of weightlifting who run around saying that "there is no one method", and "no one method is better than another". That is crap, there is always a better way to do something. Period. In my opinion, it is my way.

  22. #47
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by chris mason
    This will be the downfall of the Iron Game. Just as Plers, BBers, OLers and strongmen all think the veiw of the Iron Game they have is appropriate, this degerneration doesn't accomplish anything but to divide us.

    -----------

    Paul, what the heck is that? Actually, competing ideas have always been one of the hallmarks of the evolution of life. I really get tired of you "flower children" of weightlifting who run around saying that "there is no one method", and "no one method is better than another". That is crap, there is always a better way to do something. Period. In my opinion, it is my way.
    I think this about sums it up, folks. But not the way he means.

    Power
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

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    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
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  23. #48
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by chris mason

    Cack, muscular fatigue, or failure, has nothing to do with nervous system degradation. That is complete bullsh*t! What happens is that there is a relative deficit of ATP in the muscle and the sodium/potassium pump farts out. When this occurs, ionic imbalances occur and the muscle is no longer responsive to nervous stimulation. Get it? The nervous system is still firing, but the muscles cannot respond.

    Powerman, what do you mean that my gains are not better??? I will never understand you. Does the fact that I can take your maximum bench press and toss it around for rep after rep prove that I have made superior gains? Or, would it be the fact that by the age of 20, about 3 years after I began training, I was able to take any of your current maximums and throw them around for reps? What is it? Or, will it be when Craig James is outlifting you in about 2 months? You are one strange man....... Or, should we compare say our flexed upper arms, or quads, or anything (other than calves)?


    Oh yeah, thanks for the support Terminator, I appreciate it. Actually, I am not aware of EVER being wrong in a post concerning weightlifting. I am certainly not God, and have plenty of flaws, but when it comes to weightlifting, I am 1000% confident that what I have to say is correct and the best way to do things.
    Chris, I didn't want to have to just come out and say it, but you're a fool. I mean, I'm sorry. But with this kind of crap being said, I just have to say it.

    As we've been saying and saying and fookin' saying, I DON"T CARE HOW MUCH YOU CAN LIFT COMPARED TO ME. That is not a measure of how well you can train; Tell me where your lifts started, then we'll have a basis for comparison based on percentage of change in our initial lifts. Using the absolute numbers is no means for compasion. Same goes for Craig-- he's trained before, and has the same amount of experience as you; not to mention the fact that muscle memory will come into play as he resumes training.

    Not ever being wrong? You're wrong in this very post-- saying the nervous system isn't taxed by going to failure. Go check on the activity of motor units as you fail in a set. It certainly isn't like what you're doing at rest, or even at the beginning of the set. To say that the nervous system isn't involved is WRONG.

    Power
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  24. #49
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Ok stud, let's discuss my beginning lifts. As to the best of my memory, the very first time I went to a gym with Craig, I could not bench press 135 lbs for 1 rep. Squats, I think the first time I squatted I used something like 135 lbs for a few reps. Does that help you?

    I have a few personal things I would like to say about you. I even went so far as to type the entire post. In the end I decided to delete it because posting it would be wrong. Man, you sure do bring out the worst in me.

  25. #50
    Push powerlifting heathj's Avatar
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    Still, that's good. The first time I benched I could barely do 95 lbs.

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