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Thread: Failure to go to Failure???

  1. #101
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    I think chris is exactly right on the injury issue, I think Injuries have more to do with poor technique and steriods(emphasis on steriods). Notice how top powelifters and bodybuilders suffer injuries that you never hear about anywhere else. I have never seen anyone natural suffer a muscle tear while lifting. I mean it is common in amoung top powerlifter to get torn pecs, torn patella tendons, and even major muscle tears in both quads. They seem to be all be steroid connected. Yet I know alot of natural guys who have bench 400-500 pounds and squated 600lbs that have never suffered any major injuries or muscle tears.

  2. #102
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    There is a correlation between serious injuries and strength. The higher the resistance the more likely injuries are to happen. Those doing fast reps in the bench are generating more power and therefore are more at risk.


    We see evidence of injuries and high power loads in events such as sprinting, jumping and throwing.

    Drugs might make muscles stronger than connective tissue and that might precipitate injuries.

    Dorian and Kevin used very heavy weights. Perhaps too heavy for maximum hypertrophy. Arthur Jones felt most people lifted heavy weights to demonstrate stength (show off) and not to build strength. If you keep your reps at 5 or over you should avoid most injuries. Ray Mentzer was a superman. He, however, had a neck that needed adjusting on a weekly basis and other joint complaints. If you lift really heavy weights long enough you will suffer injuries. Most top bodybuilders have lots of injuries and adjust their training accordingly. There are heaps of exercises many can no longer do without pain.

    Maximum hypertrophy has more to do with repeating bouts of heavy resistances and not with maximal resistances.
    Last edited by Vince Basile; 06-01-2002 at 10:01 PM.

  3. #103
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    May I add something?

    If the nevous system has nothing to do with failure then why is it that you hear stories of a little kid lifting a car off his dad when it fell and crushed him? If muscles were the only factor in how much you could lift things like this would never happen but because the nevous system controls it, its possible. What I was under the impression of is that the nervous system will only allow you to lift so much for your safety.

    I have a question for Chris Mason. This is not meant to be a flame in anyway but why do you not accept that other methods work and might be better than going to failure. Powerman has given you plenty of evidence and facts that going to failure isnt the best method, its a damn good method and its very simple but it just may not be the BEST. When he gives you the facts all I've ever seen you counter with is by asking him how much he's progressed. That doesnt seem very solid to me. How can it be that your right almost all powerlifters and olympic lifters are wrong with their methods?

  4. #104
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Coleman
    May I add something?

    If the nevous system has nothing to do with failure then why is it that you hear stories of a little kid lifting a car off his dad when it fell and crushed him? If muscles were the only factor in how much you could lift things like this would never happen but because the nevous system controls it, its possible. What I was under the impression of is that the nervous system will only allow you to lift so much for your safety.

    I have a question for Chris Mason. This is not meant to be a flame in anyway but why do you not accept that other methods work and might be better than going to failure. Powerman has given you plenty of evidence and facts that going to failure isnt the best method, its a damn good method and its very simple but it just may not be the BEST. When he gives you the facts all I've ever seen you counter with is by asking him how much he's progressed. That doesnt seem very solid to me. How can it be that your right almost all powerlifters and olympic lifters are wrong with their methods?

    Do me a favor and read my journal. I still believe that training to failure is best for most beginners and intermediates. I have, however, embraced sub-failure training in my very own routine.

    Oh yeah, and Powerman is now a curl-jockey!
    Last edited by chris mason; 06-02-2002 at 07:06 AM.

  5. #105
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by chris mason
    Steroids somehow compromise the integrity of the connective tissues.
    Surely it's to do with the muscles growing faster than the tendons?
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  6. #106
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy


    Surely it's to do with the muscles growing faster than the tendons?
    Possibly. I really don't know if that is accurate or not. It sounds reasonable, but that may not actually be the case. I also have read in the past that the steroids may actually weaken the tendons in some fashion.
    Last edited by chris mason; 06-02-2002 at 07:29 AM.

  7. #107
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    Well maybe ST would be best to ask for that.

    hGH actually has an anabolic effect on tendon growth right? This may be saving some of the BBers these days who push around obscene amounts of weight with piss-poor form?
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  8. #108
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Coleman
    May I add something?

    If the nevous system has nothing to do with failure then why is it that you hear stories of a little kid lifting a car off his dad when it fell and crushed him? If muscles were the only factor in how much you could lift things like this would never happen but because the nevous system controls it, its possible. What I was under the impression of is that the nervous system will only allow you to lift so much for your safety.

    *** What's failed to be mentioned is the after effects on the body from this trauma. Large amounts of soft tissue damage ocurrs as a result of this super human feat.
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  9. #109
    Senior Member Craig James's Avatar
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    Wow, just found this thread from a year ago, and saw that it had been drug back up not to long ago with some more interesting information.

    Chris, and everyone else out there who uses it, how is the sub-maximal routine working out for you? Perhaps I am a little dense, but when you don't take a lift to failure, how exactly do you determine your progression? Is it like if you can do 8 reps of DB bench presses with 80 lbs, then next week you up the weight and go for 8 reps again? What if you can't get to 8reps, do you push until you can't go any further?
    Last edited by Craig James; 09-07-2002 at 01:21 PM.

  10. #110
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Craig James
    Perhaps I am a little dense, but when you don't take a lift to failure, how exactly do you determine your progression? Is it like if you can do 8 reps of DB bench presses with 80 lbs, then next week you up the weight and go for 8 reps again? What if you can't get to 8reps, do you push until you can't go any further?

    You can measure your progression in a number of ways; the total amount of weight lifted in a session, an increase in weight, decrease in rest periods, etc etc.

    What you listed as an example is one way I've done it.
    Last edited by PowerManDL; 09-07-2002 at 02:17 PM.
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  11. #111
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    Originally posted by Craig James
    Wow, just found this thread from a year ago, and saw that it had been drug back up not to long ago with some more interesting information.

    Chris, and everyone else out there who uses it, how is the sub-maximal routine working out for you? Perhaps I am a little dense, but when you don't take a lift to failure, how exactly do you determine your progression? Is it like if you can do 8 reps of DB bench presses with 80 lbs, then next week you up the weight and go for 8 reps again? What if you can't get to 8reps, do you push until you can't go any further?
    you can measure progression on weight sessions where you do trian to faluire. well if you do trian to flauire every so often.
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

  12. #112
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    A couple of things here. When I don't train to failure, which is every other session for a bodypart, I only use the session to keep the muscle from regressing while my nervous system is still recovering. However, for those who never train to failure, it would still be easy to guage progression. For example, if you can lift 200 lbs for 5 reps, and at the end of the set you know you could have gotten 1 more rep, then during a subsequent session if you were able to perform a set with 205 in the same manner you know you have progressed.

    One year later I have definitely changed my views on sub-maximal training. I am still of the mindset that training to failure (all exercises, every session) is still optimal for beginner and intermediate trainees (if the training is solely directed to size and strength gains, not weightlifting during football season for example). My big change in thinking is that sub-maximal sessions are beneficial to the advanced trainee. For a myriad of reasons I am at the point in my training where I simply have to wait too long between training sessions for a given bodypart if I only train to failure. I have found my progress to be more consistent and greater if I train every other session sub-maximally. As a note, when I train with my "light" session (as I call it), I only perform 1 "working" (reasonably heavy) set preceeded by a few warmups. So, this session is not taken to failure and is performed with only 1 working set. This methodology has proven to work very well for me.

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