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Thread: Attacking Iraq

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  1. #1
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
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    Attacking Iraq

    Basically, youre attacking Iraq because they MIGHT have weapons of mass destruction and they MIGHT use them in the future. apparently thats reason to invade a country.

    the usa HAS weapons of mass destruction and HAS used them several times

    (nagasaki, hiroshima, remember that time the afghans fled by the millions to pakistan and you guys dropped a daisy cutter on their ass on their way out, as they were FLEEING?)

    Saddam Hussein has been demonised for ever but i have never been able to spot an american or european media source giving him a chance to say even a single word. Ive heard about all the gruesome things he did but that only makes me more curious why.

    Remember in Chile when they had democratic elections and somebody won who wouldn`t toss over all their natural resources to the usa for nothing and help the starving people instead?
    I`m talking Nixons time here.
    Kissinger had it all figured out.
    the CIA infiltrated state instances bribing chile people.
    the highest man in the army (Steiner) was faithful to the people of chile and would not let himself be bribed. on the way to a meeting the road was blocked, he had to take a detour over a smaller road, he was stopped and liquidated. the new leader was bribed and fought a military coup overthrowing the democratic leader that did not suit the usa.
    then of all hypocrisy, they act like Pinochet is so evil and so nasty, while he was the usas man in chile

    the same thing happened in many countries.
    libya, Zaire, argentina, saudi arabia.

    its modern day colonialism. at least as violent as the old kind, with a solid dose of hypocrisy to it. Videla the war criminal...

    Iraq is next I suppose.

    The EU is no better and plays it all together with the USA.
    Why why cant we just burst all this **** open and just admit were keeping the second and third world on their backs working for us to sit back and who makes these decisions. are they even made, or do they happen?
    Last edited by Reinier; 01-05-2003 at 01:30 PM.

  2. #2
    WBBs motivational Speaker Rock's Avatar
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    Norway is in on it too, its to sad, we created something because we wanted it all, and now we dont know how to stop it.

    But its about ressources and political power, the world sickens me, Nixon was just as bad as any dictator.

    I want to move to the states, I love america, but there is just one thing that confuses me, most americans seems to know so little about what gruesome stuff their leaders have done, I dont understand the richest nation in the world, why do you need any brutalish leaders.
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  3. #3
    Some Dude
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    there is no MIGHT to it, they DO have weapons, and in my opinion, it is better to be early than too late. should we wait for the next date where some arabs decide to knock off 5000 innocent americans? i agree that power corrupts and american leaders are no exception. but ill be damned if im going to disagree with nuking iraq to PREVENT the future certain death of many many more innocent americans
    "Intensity for Density!"

  4. #4
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    Your point?
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  5. #5
    WBBs motivational Speaker Rock's Avatar
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    His point is that always question your leaders, cause they are so full of ****, no matter where you are.
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  6. #6
    Powerlifting Stoner pastdoubt's Avatar
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  7. #7
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    A book everyone should read right now is "threatening storm: the case for invading Iraq". Its written by a former CIA analyst who predicted the invasion of Kuwait and I've yet to see its major points refuted.

    Too many people assume that Hussein just wants to stay in power, like 'any other rational person' would. The problem is that he has his own distorted perception of the world and how things work.... causing him to make huge gambles with absolutely terrible odds.

    Once a nation gets nuclear weapons... dis-arming them becomes much more difficult....
    In Saddam's case, the attainment of nukes would make him a middle-east power nearly on par with Israel. He would be a threat to the stability of the gulf region... with his new bargaining toys, He sure as hell won't worry about over-running kuwait, Iran, Saudi Arabia.... and if that happens, the majority of the world's oil supply would end up in the hands of a dictator. Even worse, any military intervention in Iraq could lead to him nuking Israel or other American allies in the region. Its best that we invade now and solve the problem before things get out of hand.
    The worst case scenario for war in Iraq now is nothing compared to what it would be if we wait until Saddam posseses Nuclear weapons.
    Another thing to consider is that Iraq, although headed by a dictator, is remarkably secular. More so than most middle eastern countries... we need another Turkey in the middle east... and dropping the current regime would be a good first step towards establishing an Iraqi democracy and free market economy. Considering that the masses of neighboring Iran are pro-western, secular... this could have a powerful influence on them. As prosperity always does.... perhaps leading to democracy in Iran? One thing for sure is that this would be a great advancement of democracy and capitalism in the region... and would do much to reduce the "human resources pool" that terrorists draw their recruits from. This is not about oil, Colin Powell has clearly stated that the US will not be taking control of the oil fields.

    That is mostly from another post i made on this forum.

    anyways,

    Yes. We used Nuclear bombs. Consider the scenario.

    Yes. We killed fleeing afghans, they have a choice. Surrender or die. This is war, and a fleeing enemy can regroup and attack.

    Yes. the US has supported Dictators in the past.... it is often criticized for this. HOWEVER, Many times it was beneficial to the people.... Take South Korea. It was in shambles at the time of Independence. The US installed a dictator who forced the economy to open up, and they have developed into a fairly prosperous, democratic society. The fact is in nations where law and order hjas broken down, Democracy can NOT be effectively implemented. It won't work well without a strong central govt.

    Some of the reasons we support these evil regimes (ie Saudi arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, etc..) is for that reason. Order and freedom go hand in hand. The central govt.'s may be corrupt and cruel... but they maintain order in hotbeds of Islamic fundamentalism. These people are simply not ready for democracy.... but will be after major economic reforms which always manage to provide social change.

    Was it right or wrong to support Pinochet? who knows, what were the other options? what we do know is that Chile is very well off compared to other nations in that region. The people who made that decision had to do it quick and without the benefit of hindsight info that we have.

    The more I study US foreign policy...especially during the Cold War... the more i beleive that much of it receives unfair criticism.

    Iran comes to mind.

    The overthrow of Mossadeq in Iran led to a Iranian economic revolution, etc..etc... of course there were many human rights violations under SAVAK, which was terrible... but was there a better option? Mossadeq was in Bed with the commies and although the US may have supported some nasty regimes, NONE of them were as bad as the Soviets. The people of Iran are better off than most of their middle eastern counterparts.

    In fact, most US allies did end up prospering.

    Some people are idealists and you can't have that when it comes to foreign policy. Foreign policy is done in a mostly lawless realm....and no matter what you do, SOMEONE always gets ****ed over. "Damage Control" are the key words here.

    Democratically elected leaders are not always good for their country or even for humanity (this is especially true in poor, uneducated nations).

    Hitler was democratically elected and this is why Neville Chamberlain refused to destabilize his rule or overthrow him.
    Anyways, this proves to show that Machiavelli has always been right in that you need to do some evil to achieve some "good".

    Even considering all these things, There has never been a power that has expressed as much concern for the downtrodden or shown as much restraint as the US has.

  8. #8
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    How dare you make all these points!

    Now the European arm-chair pacifist know-it-alls won't have anything to argue about!
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  9. #9
    WBBs motivational Speaker Rock's Avatar
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    And Europe, god damn Europe should give African nations so much money, they ****ed up the whole continent of Africa, France raped Algeri and what not,

    I would like to see Europes colonist nations get down on their knees and rebuild these nations now, white old rich men should go down there and build with their own hands.

    project repay, should start.
    A big thanks to all my friends in the USA, I am deeply grateful for your hospitality and kindness.

  10. #10
    WBBs motivational Speaker Rock's Avatar
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    And Norway should start whale breeding programs , got damn freaking morons.
    A big thanks to all my friends in the USA, I am deeply grateful for your hospitality and kindness.

  11. #11
    Beware of Attack Ferrets
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    I think the US knows alot more than they lead you to believe. If they think they close to developing nukes in Iraq then they are close.

    Once that happens Israel will cease to exist and it'll really hit the fan.

  12. #12
    . Delphi's Avatar
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    Get a life.

  13. #13
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    Rock,

    my point still stands about Pinochet.


    And as for the "bombing incident".


    Sure I read the news, but for God's sake, I don't keep a pen and paper by my side to record every bomb we drop on that country. The only bombing of a pakistani town i've heard of recently is when pakistani soldiers opened fire on Americans...

    I jsut looked back on reinier's post and admit i read through that part in haste... but if it happened I'd like to see a News link to it, as war time rumors spread awful fast. If it did happen, I don't believe it was intentional and was probably an Intel failure.
    I doubt american pilots would INTENTIONALLY bomb afghani civilians, even the most cynical of you can't say our people are that bloodthirsty.

    This proves nothing about "American cruelty' and more about the nature of war.

  14. #14
    Lift-a-holic ThreeD's Avatar
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    Rock, trust me! I lived in the US for 4 years, and knowing that I moved back to Norway was probably one of the best choices I took in my life. Yeah life in the US was great, I loved going to school there and I miss all the friends I made over there.

    But life in the US after september 11th isn't the same anymore. Friends all over the US tell me they don't wake up with the same secure feeling they used to have. Yeah, the US might be a strong nation, and I'm totally against terrorism, but if you look at what the US is doing to the middle east, sooner or later they will piss off the wrong people and some manic will drop a nuke there. Now all this **** with North Korea too.

    Every time I watch the news, I ask myself one single question.. how much more ****ed up can this planet get? I mean here we are, in the middle of the universe, millions of lightyears away from other civilizations, and all we can think of is **** up this planet in any way we know. Instead of working together, trying to figure out how we can save ourselves and how we can expand mankind to other galaxies, we destroy not only ourselves, but also our future.

    This also leads me to another thread I've been watching lately, this casual sex bull****. People talkin bout how they've had 300 people in bed and what not. Is that really all it has come down to in life? To **** as many people as possible, and say goodbye with 30 genital diseases and die of Aids or some other virus? People really need to open their eyes. There are wayyyy too many power mongers and arrogant people on this planet. They all just want more and more money, better and better living standards, they're all just minding their own bizz, and last but not least they sure as hell don't give a **** about the future or what they do to other people.

    I always tell my friends, if I had one wish, it would be to remove mankind from this planet. I truly believe that this planet is way better off without us. If we've been erased from this planet in 200 years from now, we have no one else to blame but ourselves. Why? Because of our own greed. The human species is doomed to destroy itself, and it will probably happen a lot sooner than most people think!
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  15. #15
    Totally, dude!
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    Reiner, if you're going to bring stuff up with Nixon that's just sad. Many people weren't born when he was president or couldn't even vote yet. That would be like me going up to someone from Germany and saying "Oh, look what your country did you Nazi!" That was a different time. Live with it.

  16. #16
    Meathead Philosopher Pup's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Rock
    Isreal, I saw a docu about them, most of the young high school kids over there wants Isreal to live in peace with palestine, and the other way around.

    But as long as Isreali soldiers use palestines as target practise, the bombs are never gonna stop.
    When are you going to wake up Stein...if Palestine had control of Israel then they would do the same damn thing, the Palestinians and Isrealis will fight til either the world ends or they entirely kill off each other.

    And Reinier...you still post useless babble while sit you in your cozy little part of the world reading whatever books you think are relevant and watch good ole al jazeera and think you have it figured out. Maybe someday when you grow up you'll even write a book of your own, probably titled "F*ck America".
    May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows you're dead.

  17. #17
    Totally, dude!
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    Originally posted by Rock
    But as long as Isreali soldiers use palestines as target practise, the bombs are never gonna stop.
    Maybe the Palestinean extremists should stop BLOWING UP ISRAELI CITIZENS.

  18. #18
    Meathead Philosopher Pup's Avatar
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    Oh yea...and just for the record...RisingPhoenix is an indian-american, so the whole "you're just another white american being patriotic" crap won't work.
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  19. #19
    Meathead Philosopher Pup's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DoubleGulp


    Maybe the Palestinean extremists should stop BLOWING UP ISRAELI CITIZENS.
    :withstupi
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  20. #20
    Meathead Philosopher Pup's Avatar
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    *Bottom line, give the palestine their land back, let the palestine refugees come back to their homes, and start working for peace.*

    They claim all of israel is theirs, would you like to see the israelis thrown from their own country?
    May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows you're dead.

  21. #21
    WBBs motivational Speaker Rock's Avatar
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    I am jumping out of this discussion, it will make many people dislike me, not a good move
    A big thanks to all my friends in the USA, I am deeply grateful for your hospitality and kindness.

  22. #22
    Bmx Bandit McBain's Avatar
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  23. #23
    MulletII - AKA Ninja Boner Gyno Rhino's Avatar
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    I'm not gonna get into this discussion, there are too many like it.

    But here's the bottom line, Reiner.

    The US hasn't invaded a defenseless country without reason for quite a while.

    Iraq has.

    The US ain't gonna go drop nukes or bio-weapons on Holland to dominate the wooden shoe trade.

    But Iraq just might, if they get the whim.

    I understand you're against violence and war, Reiner, but this anti-anything-the-US-does is gettin' old. I mean, if Holland thought that Iraq was a threat and Holland decided to fight them, I'm not so sure you'd be so anti-war.
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  24. #24
    Back at it
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    I don't have a strong opinion about the conflict, but while a country should question their leaders, just remember that top secret information is just that... top secret. There is a lot of information out there that the public doesn't know, and for good reason.

    I can almost guarantee the US and its allies have pleanty of evidence that incriminates iraq, but are awaiting the appropriate time to release it.

    We in the US do question our leaders, and you'd be surprised of how many groups and organizations are against the war. I hate it when people from other countries make generalizations about Americans as being war mongers... trust me, there are pleanty of people who question our leadership and the actions it takes.

    Do you think Iraqies question their leadership? Hell no, they'd be killed by that very leadership. That right there should give an indication into who these leaders are and what they stand for.

  25. #25
    Bad Monkey! Nights's Avatar
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    Pretty sure I started a thread about this a while back.. one that turned into a rather long discussion.. and my views on the issue still remain the same. I don't think Iraq should have nukes, but I don't think a place with a **** load of them has the right to tell them so. Mostly a country that believes in the whole "right to arms" thing.

    I'd feel a whole lot safier if nowhere had nukes, but seeing as that ain't going to happen.. whatevers.

    And who's to say that the next president of the US won't suddenly decide "Hey, we got nukes.. **** the rule book, I'll be a dictatory." Who's to say some crazy mother****er that makes Hussien look like Gandhi isn't going to slip into power with you guys?
    LaLa

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