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Thread: Food for Thought on the war

  1. #1
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    Food for Thought on the war

    I have heard several Democrats (and hollywood actors/actress) mention that we should not go to war because there is no proof that Iraq has any chemical or biological weapons, yet just a second later argue that we do not need to send our troops over there and have them exposed to chemical and biological weapons when Iraq attacks them......so is the Democratic arguement that they ( chemical and biological weapons) exist or don't they?

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    The argument is that no one knows and without proof, there's no basis for attack.
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    The argument is that we know sh*t went in, we know sh*t didn't go out, we know sh*t's been produced there, we know sh*t was left off the arms declaration that Iraq submitted, we know they're full of sh*t, but we haven't found tubs of anthrax or tubes of weapons-grade uranium sitting around yet. So I say we go sh*t on them before they sh*t on someone else.

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    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    In other words I didn't feel like responding to the (rhetorical) question. But I think the next person who asks for 'proof' needs to be sodomized with a scud missile.
    Last edited by Alex.V; 01-30-2003 at 08:11 AM.
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    My concern is that taking action in that part of the country will open up Pandora's Box chain of events that we can't predict. I can understand why much of Europe is against our intervention because they are in closer proximity.

    Also, how are we going to pay for this war? We'v got economic problems as it is and war is expensive. Meanwhile the government talks about cutting taxes? Where's the cash coming from? Or are we just going to run a huge deficit again and give more financial leverage to the foreign countries who already own much of our debt?

    And who is going to fight this war? Young men...not the old geezers who talk big. As far as "proof" and "reason for going to war," none of the arguments given make me willing to send my brothers and my friends. And no Congressmen, CEO's, or rich people's kids are going to go, you can be assured of that.

    I'm more worried about North Korea anyways...

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    Re: Food for Thought on the war

    Originally posted by Sledgehammer
    I have heard several Democrats (and hollywood actors/actress)
    So your getting your news from hollywood? I remeber during the last election kim bassinger and one of the baldwin was going to leave the country if bush got elected. Did they?

    Personally we should have dealt with iraq when were thre last time. Yes the middle east is a volitile place, who know what could happen. Do think if we don't, then they will change there minds and like us?
    As far as economy, I've been working in the steal and iron industry, you don't build tanks out of plywood. The boys will be getting overtime, so thats more money for the wives to put into the economy.
    Plus I think we have already started to make ourselves look weak by not doing anything, not to mention giving him time to prepare. Maybe thats the plan, if we attack to tommarrow it will be a surprise.

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    That declaration was possibly altered since U.S officials grabbed it first thing and took it back to Washington before anyone really had a chance to take a look at it. Or did everyone miss that? Though I'm sure they probably have some chemical and biological weapons since we sold some to them before. Why doesn't Washington want to go after the U.S. companies that sold equipment to Iraq?

    If I remember right, no one in the Senate and only one member of the house actually has offspring in the armed forces. Nice...

    It's still bull. I'm still of the same opinion as that great Marine Smedley Butler when it comes to war in general. They'll put a moral spin on it to get people to follow a war that is about the economic interests of whoever has influence in government. It's an age old tactic.
    Last edited by Shane; 01-30-2003 at 11:35 AM.
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    There is plenty of proof against Iraq.

    North Korea is a problem but we can't use the same approach against every nation. Even pakistan is a problem, but it would be counterproductive to destroy that regime. the difference is North Korea's dictator is a madman, but a prudent madman.

    Chemical/Bio Weapons is not the only reason to invade Iraq, in essence, it would be a big step in reducing the human resources pool terrorists draw from if we can democratize and liberalize the region. Iraq could become a model for the arab world.
    This is what the fundamentalists fear most...

    they realize that you cannot "filter" and control the western ideals that come into your country, they understand that if their people liberalize, adopt a free market economy, educate themselves, and "westernize"... that they will no longer have any roles of importance in their societies.... which is the dilemma that the Mullahs in charge of Iran currently face. Their power has been usurped by the pro-west masses.
    anyways, If you think the NK problem is bad, just wait 'til Hussein gets nukes.

    I can't help but think of the similarity this situation has with WWII.... to keep germany from attacking other nations in Europe, there were not allowed to keep troops in their own industrial center in the Rhineland. if Germany attacked any other country, French troops could capture German industry and paralyze its economy. The French army was much bigger at the time...and the germans weren't much of a threat.
    Hitler sent troops into the rhineland in 1936... he later remarked privately that if the French had then marched into the Rhineland, the germans wouldn't have had the resources to fight them and would have had to leave... but gambled anyways, because he didn't believe the french had the guts to act.
    Just like now, we have people who asked what the big deal was. he was just moving troops around in his borders, militaries did it all the time!

    No one asked anything after the devastation of Europe.

    Churchill said that never was there a war that would have been easier to prevent. The earlier that preventive action would have been taken against Hitler, the lower the cost would have been.
    Something to think about.

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    Good point about Hitler. If we would have stopped him at Munich(I think) at lot could have been avoided. Though I don't think Sadam has the potential that Hilter had. Hes not smart enough. But who knows what he could do.

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    Originally posted by RisingPhoenix
    There is plenty of proof against Iraq.

    You can argue a lot of stuff, but PLEASE don't say this unless you can give some examples. I consider myself a relatively smart and informed person and I have yet to see ANY proof, let alone "plenty." The definition of "proof" does not lend itself to anything we have on Iraq.
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    Here's my thought on this subject. The whole world has gone to $h!t. If I ran Canada, I would close the borders for the next 20 years, expel all foreign nationals, and diplomats. Do a backround check on all immigrants for the past 60 years, and expel them and their family and extended family if they are found to be an undesirable element(terrorist links, war crimes, etc..). Allow no immigration either, until we can get that department running right. Keep our nose out of it, let other countries solve their own problems, and if they happend to blow each other to kingdom come, then so be it.
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    Off topic. But I am for shutting out the Canadians too.

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    I'm still for nuking you guys, so STFU

    lol
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    Jack's Utter Surprise Saturday Fever's Avatar
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    Chemical/Bio Weapons is not the only reason to invade Iraq, in essence, it would be a big step in reducing the human resources pool terrorists draw from if we can democratize and liberalize the region. Iraq could become a model for the arab world.
    This is what the fundamentalists fear most...
    Since you were so offended by Rock saying you hate muslims in another thread, I'd like to paste you saying exactly that right here. What you are saying is, "if we can eliminate muslims we can make a model nation in the middle east."
    Last edited by Saturday Fever; 01-30-2003 at 01:45 PM.

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    Iraq has to be attacked because a country with a such a large oil reserve has to have a western (read USA) friendly regime. Simple. There's plenty of other coutries with much larger arsenal of mass destruction weapons that disrespect humans rights in a much more brutal manner and there's no knights in a shinning armour comming for them. I fail to understand if you people just can't see beyond the government controled propaganda or if you just can't really look at it in a honest perspective.

    Now don't get me wrong, I think Saddam should go down, but a little honesty would be nice for a change.
    Last edited by restless; 01-30-2003 at 01:49 PM.

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    Everyone always brings up human rights. Perhaps I can give you a muslim's viewpoint on these "human rights issues."

    Firstly, a muslim believes that all things are done by the will of God. (Allah is simplky the arabic term and name for God) So when you hear a Western Judeo-Christian media reporting on how "harsh" Iraq is on the people, there are a couple things to consider.

    1) The media is fed propoganda via the government.
    2) In whose eye is the treatment harsh?

    I wake up everyday and make my morning prayer. And then I go about my day. God gives me whatever He wants to. If He should will that I will lose my job today, then I will lose my job today. If he should will that I be kidnapped and beaten daily for 3 months before I'm rescued, then I will be kidnapped and beaten daily for 3 months until I'm rescued. But I will still make my 5 daily prayers. I will still go on doing what the Qur'an tells me to do. And when my time to die arrives, I will be at ease. Because a muslim doesn't live for this world.

    So when you hear about this harsh treatment, realize it's only harsh when it plays well into rallying support to attack. A muslim knows that this world is but a series of tests and trials, and should we do well and please God, then we will enter Paradise in the Hereafter. And THAT is what this life is all about. We will take the bumps in life's road for the chance to enter Paradise.

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    Sure, but I never said I was in agreement with their ways. The thruth is there no known evidence that the guy does have these dangerous arms of mass destruction (although I'm sure these can be "arranged" by the intelligence services). This is a war for oil, that happens to have the added beneffit of bringing down a dictator.

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    Yeah I find it very amusing that we have satellites that can take your picture from orbit, and show all of the yellow on your teeth, and yet they can't produce a single image of weapons over there. Hell, even Microsoft has satellites that will show you your neighborhood from space with enough detail to make out your house. And you're telling me that somehow Saddam is so brilliant he has found ways to avoid the government's satelites? I'm just not buying it.

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    Originally posted by Saturday Fever
    Yeah I find it very amusing that we have satellites that can take your picture from orbit, and show all of the yellow on your teeth, and yet they can't produce a single image of weapons over there. Hell, even Microsoft has satellites that will show you your neighborhood from space with enough detail to make out your house. And you're telling me that somehow Saddam is so brilliant he has found ways to avoid the government's satelites? I'm just not buying it.
    You couldn't have done a better job at supporting my argument. If there were any, they would have been released a long time ago to gather support for all the other nations and to silence the opposers.
    Last edited by restless; 01-30-2003 at 02:20 PM.

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    Gino,



    That Iraq was producing chemical/bio weapons before is an established fact. The former head of the last inspections committee acknowledged that at the most, Iraq had only been 90% dis-armed and even after being "dis-armed", they could get their weapons program up to speed within six months.

    President Bush in his speech acknowledged that Iraq has vast stores of anthrax, VX gas, sarin gas, and mustard gas... as well as other chem/bio weapons. These stats were established by the UN and they amount to very large amounts. He hasn't given any evidence that he's rid himself of them. Its also known that he tried to get uranium recently from Africa. If you don't believe the US govt., he went on to say that the IEAE admitted Saddam had a nuclear weapons program in the 90's and was working on enriching uranium for a bomb (an interesting book about this is "saddam's bombmaker" written by the former head of Iraq's nuclear weapons program). He's blocking U-2 Surveillance flights requested by the UN.

    If you read the report by Hans Blix, he says pretty much the same thing.

    Iraq is the size of Texas, and if Hussein doesn't cooperate with the inspectors, there is no way in hell they can win on his playing field. If you look at the dis-armanent of South Africa a while ago, and the current "disarmament" of Iraq today... you'll find many many differences. They clearly have something to hide.

    Saturdayfever,

    I don't know how drew that from my comment. You are saying that, not me. I talked about democratizing the region and allowing a capitalist economy to be established in Iraq allowing the region to flourish. Iraq, being a fairly secular nation already, would be a prime candidate for this. This would cause an upheaval against the fundamentalists. If your going to use rhetorical tactics, at least use them well.

  22. #22
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    Restless-Get off your high horse. I know oil is of interest. 2 birds with 1 stone. Heres any interesting thought, all the money pouring into the middle east from oil, what good is being done with it? If you eliminated the middle the world would be no worse off, no loss of culture, no loss of science or research. I know off topic.
    I have no problem admitting I would like to see someone else controlling the oil market, or atleast influencing it.
    SF- if you want to think your ass whooping by life is the will of god, ok. I prefer to think he gave me the ability to do something about it, for myslef and others.


    After that less take over cuba and turn back into a resort, recoup our costs.

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    Back to sattelite imaging. Is there a good site out there? I heard us geological services, but I couldn't find anything.

  24. #24
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    Originally posted by Berserker
    Restless-Get off your high horse. I know oil is of interest. 2 birds with 1 stone. Heres any interesting thought, all the money pouring into the middle east from oil, what good is being done with it? If you eliminated the middle the world would be no worse off, no loss of culture, no loss of science or research. I know off topic.
    I have no problem admitting I would like to see someone else controlling the oil market, or atleast influencing it.



    After that less take over cuba and turn back into a resort, recoup our costs.
    Clear something up for me, when you talk about eliminating the middle do you mean the middle east?

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