Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 35

Thread: Chest Question?

  1. #1
    bench, deadlift & eat!!!!! Mic Soloist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Louisville, Ky
    Posts
    1,959

    Chest Question?

    My chest is getting very developed and fairly cut but the problem is the bottom part isn't getting nearly as cut as the top.

    Is their any way to change your bench press, push ups, or any other chest exercise that can allow you to focus on the bottom part of the chest.

    I know if you do wider push ups it helps your chest get wider, but what can you do to work on the bottom??
    Current Stats

    24 years old

    5'10 220 pounds



    Waist: 38 Shoulders 56 Chest: 47 Arms (cold): 17.5 Forearms: 13.5 Quads: 26.5 Calves: 16.5 Neck: 17.5

    PR's

    BB Bench: 315 @ 215
    Squats: 410 @ 205 (last winter)
    Deads 515 @ 214
    Total: 1240


    My Journal:

    http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...&page=16&pp=25

    My AIM: MSOLOIST


    Intensity: Lunch comes up! And breakfast! MET- Rx! Egg whites! Hot Stuff! Designer Whey! Yohimbe! Coenzyme Q! L-Carnatine. MTCs. OKG. All immersed in a mixture of stomach acids that peels the ivory off your teeth.

  2. #2

  3. #3
    Senior Member Manveet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    White Rock, BC
    Posts
    5,774
    Lol @ moses.

    You cannot isolate parts of the chest Mic Soloist. The chest grows as one muscle. You want more definition, try a cutting diet.
    "It is often said, mainly by the "no-contests", that although there is no positive evidence for the existence of God, nor is there evidence against his existence. So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thought it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

    Richard Dawkins


    "Out of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best moral code, the best cathedral, the best stained glass, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one."


    Richard Dawkins


    "Bah. You know I hate poor people."

    Paul Stagg

  4. #4
    NotSoBig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    USA BABY!
    Posts
    55
    Originally posted by Frozenmoses
    HAHHA!

  5. #5
    Senior Member ebon00's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    95
    Originally posted by Manveet
    You cannot isolate parts of the chest Mic Soloist. The chest grows as one muscle. You want more definition, try a cutting diet.
    Although this is correct you can change the emphasis on the various areas of the pecs. Since it's a fan-shaped muscle (and muscle fibers work in straight lines) the angel of pull will recruit different fibers. This is the reason why most anatomists divide the pecs into a calvicular and a sternal portion.

    I agree that trying to 'cut' a part of a muscle is madness... that's a function of bodyfat %. You can, however, add emphasis on the lower chest in your training (not that most trainees need it) by doing dips and/or decline presses becaue of the different plabe of motion.
    "We must never take these words too seriously. Words are very important but if we take them too seriously, we destroy everything."

  6. #6
    Porn Star
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    0
    Agree with the above, there is no possible way to taget a specific area of a muscle. Build a big chest and lose the body fat and your chest will look good.

    Weighted parallel dips will be the best exercise for your chest IMO.

  7. #7
    Senior Member ebon00's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    95
    Since most people here seem uneducated in basic anatomy, here is some information that should lay the inner/outer, upper/lower chest debate to rest.

    "Wide grip benches can be wonderful for lateral pectoral mass but they will do very little for the medial fibers, because these fibers barely shorten at all when benching." Stephen E. Alway, Ph.D.

    Basically, the length of the fibers of the pectoral muscles are such that they need to be brought through the full ROM for the inner myofilaments to contract (you need to bring your elbow to the midline of your body). Since motor units fire in succesion, and no morer motor units than necessary are recruited to 'make a lift', the inner fibers remain fairly un-called upon when performing regular benches (or even close-grip benches) because of the final position of the elbow. This is one reason that full ROM is important.

    "Unfortunately there are still a few folks who mistakenly think that all the fibers in a muscle are recruited equally and optimally by just about any compound exercise around. Studies using electromyographic activity, however, clearly show that selective recruitment and mechanical contribution of region within a muscle are very real and very possible." Stephen E. Alway, Ph.D.

    "The pectoralis muscle has two heads. The clavicular head has an attachment on the anterior surface of the clavicle. The sternocostal head has an attachment site on the manubrium, the upper six costal cartileges and from the tendinous-like portion of the superior part of the external oblique muscle." (Adapted from Anatomy - A regional atlas of the human body by Clemente.)

    And finally about inclines for upper chest mass:

    "Because the fibers in the two heads run to the humerus at the shoulder joint from very different angles (and even the fiber trajectories differ considerably from superior to inferior along the sterno costal head) this permits varying degrees and levels of activation that are dependent in part on the shoulder angle whe the chest is exercised." Stephen E. Alway, Ph.D.

    Thus endeth today's anatomy lesson.
    "We must never take these words too seriously. Words are very important but if we take them too seriously, we destroy everything."

  8. #8
    back at it Beast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    0
    Also, medial means closer to the middle of the body, while lateral means farther away, in case someone doesn't know.
    Yeah biology 102!

    D 435 / S 340 / B 305

    Journal

    "I avoid talking to normal people about this stuff as much as possible. It's usually a waste of time." - HahnB

    "OMG HE EETS 2 MUCH0RZ!!111 O NOES HE EETS TEH FATS!!!111" - PowerManDL

    "Test does a body good." - Severed Ties

  9. #9
    The English Teacher steveo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    So. Cal
    Posts
    1,409
    I ebon , you have more Body Fat on the lower chest so it may not look as cut. As long you are benching you're good, you just need to lose some BF. I usually look like crap most of the time until I cut and then I see my muscle.
    "The only good race pace is suicide pace, and today looks like a good day to die." -Steve Prefontaine

    Motivate a fatty here.

  10. #10
    bench, deadlift & eat!!!!! Mic Soloist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Louisville, Ky
    Posts
    1,959
    thanks for the heavy respnonse, so I guess cutting is my next step. Like I said, my chest is already fairly defined. It is almost 41 inches and considering I'm a fairly trim guy with a 32 inch waist, I feel like my chest is coming along good. However I just want to have that full roundness around the bottom and unless I'm pumped it doesn't usually look like that.

    Thanks for the help guys.....

    Also, I am fairly new at this so ease up on the technical talk if you can, or at least explain some of the words that may be unfamilar to new guys. Thanks again.


    -peace-
    Current Stats

    24 years old

    5'10 220 pounds



    Waist: 38 Shoulders 56 Chest: 47 Arms (cold): 17.5 Forearms: 13.5 Quads: 26.5 Calves: 16.5 Neck: 17.5

    PR's

    BB Bench: 315 @ 215
    Squats: 410 @ 205 (last winter)
    Deads 515 @ 214
    Total: 1240


    My Journal:

    http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...&page=16&pp=25

    My AIM: MSOLOIST


    Intensity: Lunch comes up! And breakfast! MET- Rx! Egg whites! Hot Stuff! Designer Whey! Yohimbe! Coenzyme Q! L-Carnatine. MTCs. OKG. All immersed in a mixture of stomach acids that peels the ivory off your teeth.

  11. #11
    bench, deadlift & eat!!!!! Mic Soloist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Louisville, Ky
    Posts
    1,959
    my current routine for chest days is

    Bench Press: 3 sets of 8-12 reps

    Lever Chest Press: 3 Sets of 15 reps

    Lever Seated Flys: 3 Sets of 10


    What are some other things I should do on chest day besides declining the bench??


    Also if I'm doing the decline bench should I skip the regular bench or do both the same day?
    Current Stats

    24 years old

    5'10 220 pounds



    Waist: 38 Shoulders 56 Chest: 47 Arms (cold): 17.5 Forearms: 13.5 Quads: 26.5 Calves: 16.5 Neck: 17.5

    PR's

    BB Bench: 315 @ 215
    Squats: 410 @ 205 (last winter)
    Deads 515 @ 214
    Total: 1240


    My Journal:

    http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...&page=16&pp=25

    My AIM: MSOLOIST


    Intensity: Lunch comes up! And breakfast! MET- Rx! Egg whites! Hot Stuff! Designer Whey! Yohimbe! Coenzyme Q! L-Carnatine. MTCs. OKG. All immersed in a mixture of stomach acids that peels the ivory off your teeth.

  12. #12
    Ecoli die
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Colorado!
    Posts
    741
    Just one note, there are three large muscles/heads in the "chest"

    Pectoralis Major Clavicular - This head is often thought of as the "upper" chest. This muscle draws your arms/shoulders in and up across the upper chest.
    Pectoralis Major Sternal - This is the large muscle head that protects your heart/lungs.
    Pectoralis Minor -this is the muscle you feel under your arms going to your chest. It draws your shoulders/arms in and down towards the stomach.
    Last edited by Tiare; 01-31-2003 at 08:25 PM.
    Now in pain, only working out the walking sticks.

  13. #13
    "Tuna Boy" NateDogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Central, MA
    Posts
    3,376
    Originally posted by ebon00
    Since most people here seem uneducated in basic anatomy, here is some information that should lay the inner/outer, upper/lower chest debate to rest.
    A few things.

    1. That gross generalization was rather uncalled for.

    2. Those quotes do not in any way show that you have an understanding of basic anatomy. Maybe you do; I don't know, but that's my point. There is no need to talk down to the rest of us.

    3. The debate has raged on for a long time. You posting a few quotes is not going to end it.
    Last edited by NateDogg; 01-31-2003 at 10:00 PM.
    "damn...can't beat logic like that.
    NAte is exactly right." - Tryska

  14. #14
    Brachiatior hockeyplayer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    80
    :withstupi

  15. #15
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Posts
    7,850
    Originally posted by ebon00
    Since most people here seem uneducated in basic anatomy, here is some information that should lay the inner/outer, upper/lower chest debate to rest.

    Aww that wasn't nice. Now I'm going to have to /pwn you.

    "Wide grip benches can be wonderful for lateral pectoral mass but they will do very little for the medial fibers, because these fibers barely shorten at all when benching." Stephen E. Alway, Ph.D.

    And *we* are the ones uneducated in basic anatomy? Sorry, but this is something an undergrad in any branch of exercise science would not hold as truth....let alone someone with a doctorate.

    Basically, the length of the fibers of the pectoral muscles are such that they need to be brought through the full ROM for the inner myofilaments to contract (you need to bring your elbow to the midline of your body). Since motor units fire in succesion, and no morer motor units than necessary are recruited to 'make a lift', the inner fibers remain fairly un-called upon when performing regular benches (or even close-grip benches) because of the final position of the elbow. This is one reason that full ROM is important.

    Quite incorrect. Motor unit recruitment is a function of muscular tension, not of joint angle. If the MU's at the inner part of the chest aren't contracted, then neither are the ones at the outer part.

    I've previously posted quite a few references showing this to be the case in other chest isolation threads.

    "Unfortunately there are still a few folks who mistakenly think that all the fibers in a muscle are recruited equally and optimally by just about any compound exercise around. Studies using electromyographic activity, however, clearly show that selective recruitment and mechanical contribution of region within a muscle are very real and very possible." Stephen E. Alway, Ph.D.

    If you'd like a list of why EMG activity is crap for measuring muscular action, do a search. I've already posted it in one of these threads before.

    What he fails to realize here is that EMG does NOT show mechanical tension in the muscle. Only MRI can do that. Nor does he mention anything about force transmission through the complex, nor the fact that the selective "compartments" of motor unit recruitment vanish at tensions encountered in weight training due to that fact.

    Again I've been over all this in much greater detail before.

    "The pectoralis muscle has two heads. The clavicular head has an attachment on the anterior surface of the clavicle. The sternocostal head has an attachment site on the manubrium, the upper six costal cartileges and from the tendinous-like portion of the superior part of the external oblique muscle." (Adapted from Anatomy - A regional atlas of the human body by Clemente.)

    The clavicular head and sternal head have different origins but share insertion at the intertubercular groove of the humerus.

    Coincidentally they also perform the same function from a kinesiological standpoint.

    And finally about inclines for upper chest mass:

    "Because the fibers in the two heads run to the humerus at the shoulder joint from very different angles (and even the fiber trajectories differ considerably from superior to inferior along the sterno costal head) this permits varying degrees and levels of activation that are dependent in part on the shoulder angle whe the chest is exercised." Stephen E. Alway, Ph.D.


    Angle of pennation may appear to have an effect at first, but in the end, if the thing's contracting, its contracting.

    I'll concede that an incline or overhead press may put the sternal head in a *slightly* weaker position; however, I'm not convinced that this will have any noticable training effect.

    Certainly not enough of one to make any difference regarding the design of a training program.

    Thus endeth today's anatomy lesson.

    Thanks for the enlightenment.

    /pwned
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  16. #16
    Senior Member Manveet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    White Rock, BC
    Posts
    5,774
    /pwned
    "It is often said, mainly by the "no-contests", that although there is no positive evidence for the existence of God, nor is there evidence against his existence. So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thought it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

    Richard Dawkins


    "Out of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best moral code, the best cathedral, the best stained glass, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one."


    Richard Dawkins


    "Bah. You know I hate poor people."

    Paul Stagg

  17. #17
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C.
    Posts
    5,323
    Wurd up Matt.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  18. #18
    Senior Member ebon00's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    95
    PowerManDL - thanks for the thorough putdown but you've proven nothing. Here's why:

    And *we* are the ones uneducated in basic anatomy? Sorry, but this is something an undergrad in any branch of exercise science would not hold as truth....let alone someone with a doctorate.

    This should really be basic physiology so I aplogize if I mislead you. If you remember how the myofilaments of the muscle fiber looks and think about it, you'll get it.

    Motor unit recruitment is a function of muscular tension, not of joint angle. If the MU's at the inner part of the chest aren't contracted, then neither are the ones at the outer part.

    I've previously posted quite a few references showing this to be the case in other chest isolation threads.


    And, as is the nature of this thing we call science, I could probably dig up a few studies that show exactly what I'm talking about. There is some evidence, granted it's from cats but that shouldn't matter since their muscular system is very similar to ours, that show that motor unit recruitment is sequential. And if you seriously think that joint angle has nothing to do with motor unit recruitment then we possibly have different understandings of the physiology behind this.

    If you'd like a list of why EMG activity is crap for measuring muscular action, do a search. I've already posted it in one of these threads before.

    I've seen plenty of it and it might just be my imagination but the brunt of the debate seems to be about muscle movement during measuring and the statistical normalization tools used to counter the effects of variability in the readings. This is standard scientific stuff so the fact that you've read something and I've read something else doesn't mean you're right. I got my information from the latest textbooks on the subject I could find. If they're wrong... what can I do? I agree that MRI is a better tool but it is unavailable for the torso (the work on the limbs by Per Tesch comes highly recommended though) and therefore we need other tools.

    Angle of pennation may appear to have an effect at first, but in the end, if the thing's contracting, its contracting.

    This is the old 'if a fiber contracts it contracts fully' which has been all around the world by now. The problem is simple mechanics. Take the medial part of the chest. Yes, the fiber might contract but not through its full length. If there's not enough movement for the fiber to shorten properly the myofilaments of a certain part (say the medial) will not shorten. Therefore, they do not contract in the way that most bodybuilding literature tend to say.

    Feel free to plan your comeback. You sound like you have a good understanding of these things and if you do you really should know better than to slam something because you read something else in a journal. If you find one cast-in-stone truth in exercise physiology that hasn't been challenged by at least one study through the years, that's good work. But hey, at least you got props from a few guys that probably didn't even get what we're talking about here. Good job.
    "We must never take these words too seriously. Words are very important but if we take them too seriously, we destroy everything."

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Scotland, Glasgow
    Posts
    176
    Weighted Chest dips will work your lower - middle part of your chest. Decline bench press and decline flies.

    Robert

  20. #20
    A Fortnight Dead
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Independent as a Hog on Ice
    Posts
    1,699
    "human kind/
    Cannot bear very much reality/
    Time past and time future/
    What might have been and what has been / Point to one end, which is always present."

    -T.S. Eliot. "Four Quartets."

    "Redistribution [of wealth] is in effect far less a redistribution of free income from the richer to the poorer, as we [had] imagined, than a redistribution of power from the individual to the State."
    -Jouvenal

    Fear me, I am the bandersnatch.
    -Paul Stagg

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    184
    We should put some kind of filter on this forum...where if the words "chest" and "isolate" are in the same post...the server automatically deletes it. Wouldn't that be nice? Maybe the chest posts should be a sticky. Or hulk's sig.

  22. #22
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C.
    Posts
    5,323
    Originally posted by ebon00
    But hey, at least you got props from a few guys that probably didn't even get what we're talking about here. Good job.
    *** Lol.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  23. #23
    Senior Member Manveet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    White Rock, BC
    Posts
    5,774
    Uh oh.
    "It is often said, mainly by the "no-contests", that although there is no positive evidence for the existence of God, nor is there evidence against his existence. So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thought it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

    Richard Dawkins


    "Out of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best moral code, the best cathedral, the best stained glass, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one."


    Richard Dawkins


    "Bah. You know I hate poor people."

    Paul Stagg

  24. #24
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Yeongsan. South Korea
    Posts
    5,907
    Originally posted by ebon00
    There is some evidence, granted it's from cats but that shouldn't matter since their muscular system is very similar to ours, that show that motor unit recruitment is sequential. And if you seriously think that joint angle has nothing to do with motor unit recruitment then we possibly have different understandings of the physiology behind this.

    [

    Cats? tuttut

  25. #25
    Senior Member ebon00's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    95
    Originally posted by ExtremeAnabolic
    Cats? tuttut
    Yeah, cats. Hey, if you want to parttake in a nice little study on muscle activity and don't mind some muscle biopsies, I think I know some people you could call. There's a reason a lot of research isn't done on humans (pretty much the same reason animal rights activists tend to get upset about using animals instead) but I'm sure they would let you donate some tissue if you signed the right paperwork. Still no answer to my other ramblings though... could the people be out digging through references?
    "We must never take these words too seriously. Words are very important but if we take them too seriously, we destroy everything."

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •