The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    Mass v Strength??

    Question?

    I realize this is wannabebig.com and not necessarily wannabestrong.com....but....i notice most of the routines here are geared towards putting on as much mass as fast as possible.

    are there any tweaks you can do to a routine, if mass is irrelevant, but you want strength and muscle hardness?

    the reason i ask is, i was just outside with some coworkers discussing training....(one played basketball and football in school, the other played football and powerlifted). The PLer said that his coach used to have them rotate low rep/high weight routines and high rep/lor weight routines each month, reason being that while the low reps built mass, the high reps firmed the muscles. I know it sounds sketchy.....but, is there anyway to play around with a routine, or different lifts, that focus most on strength, and not necessarily hardcore growth? I'm presuming some sort of PL touches....but I would like input.

    and for the record....I know as a woman, I'm not gonna put on huge amounts of mass without gear....i know that the state of your muscles is mostly dependent on genetics....this question is purely out of curiosity...and well..."i don't wanna get TOO big"...you know how that is....
    A little learning is a dangerous thing...

    Live Dangerously! Learn a Little!


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  3. #2
    Soon to be lean... Joe Black's Avatar
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    Well if you generally just want to be strong, I think a normal low volume bodybuilding routnie is prob the best.,

    When you mention pl'ing remember it is all geared towards 3 big lifts on a certain day. Therefore training is geared on making those 3 lifts the biggest and performing the best on those days..

    if you want overall strenght then train hard, rest aduequetly and train hard again..

  4. #3
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Periodization.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  5. #4
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Maki Riddington
    Periodization.
    okay.....wanna give me a "why"?

    and hulk...yeah....that crossed my mind with PLing too...those three lifts are nice...but i guess my question was what types of things PL'ers do to get to that maximal strength....periodization as one...wave training is another....but what else? you know what i mean?
    A little learning is a dangerous thing...

    Live Dangerously! Learn a Little!


    Dude, did Doogie Howser just steal my fucking car?

  6. #5
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Sorry Tryska for the one worded replies. I just don't feel like typing a huge post. I'll post later on today more in depth.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  7. #6
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    The difference between "strength" and general mass is a tricky one.

    Training for PL strength will develop strength for the powerlifts, but the nature of those lifts is to test full body strength. Those particular lifts were in fact chosen to test the maximal strength of the entire body. Though some may argue the placement of the bench press in that line up, I think few will argue about the relevance of the squat and deadlift.

    A low volume mass routine will develop a type of strength, namely strength endurance. However, there are several other types beyond this, namely "speed-strength" (power), "limit strength" (max force), and aerobic strength (endurance).

    A comprehensive "strength" program will develop all of these to some degree, with emphasis on limit strength.

    It should involve the "basic" movements of the human body, namely a squat, a pull, an upper body press, and an upper body row. These movements should themselves be trained with heavy weights, from 3's to 5's.

    Additionally, the composite muscles of these movements should be trained with accessory movements, either compound or isolation, to stimulate hypertrophy.

    With all the "basic" movements covered from the neural/technical angle, and the strength of the component muscles increasing, you have the foundation for general, overall strength.

    To further augment this for developing speed-strength, you should first have a good foundation of limit strength. Using percentages from 50-70% of your 1RM in a given movement, you should perform explosive reps for several sets of 3-5 reps. Ideally, these movements would be performed with compound (i.e., Westside's speed squats) or multiple-compound lifts (i.e., the Olympic lifts).

    Anaerobic strength-endurance is developed by routines similar to either the HIT-style workouts espoused here, or by using high-volume non-failure sets of 6-8 reps with very short rests. One is more specific to hypertrophy, while one is more specific to anaerobic threshold work. Both are necessary to some degree.

    The emphasis should be on limit strength of the core movements, with speed-strength of the core movements coming second. Strength-endurance should be last in priority, but is still necessary. In all phases, the accessory work should be constantly rotated between low-volume strength-endurance work and limit strength work.

    Of course, that's a lot of factors to take into consideration. To train them all at once would not only be nearly impossible, but impractical if it were done. The answer is periodization.

    I don't mean the linear method normally seen, with the mass, strength, power, and conversion phases-- this has its place in some sports, but is not best for general strength purpose. I'd espouse something along the lines of the conjugate method used by Westside or JV Askem, the periodization used by Fred Hatfield, or even the auto-regulating system designed by Chris Thibaudeau. All of these methods are good examples of strength-oriented programs.

    Westside Training: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives (read under Louie Simmons and Dave Tate) and http://www.elitefts.com

    JV Askem's strength training: http://www.olympus.net/personal/cablebar

    Fred Hatfield: http://www.drsquat.com

    Chris Thibaudeau's program: http://www.ironmag.com and look under the article on APRE training.

    In short, those are the basic ingredients-- you can modify and tailor these programs based on the general rules to obtain any effect or goal you need.

    Power
    Last edited by PowerManDL; 07-27-2001 at 03:46 PM.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  8. #7
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    well damn dl...*lol*

    thanks for the comprehensive overview...

    now i've gotta go read....
    A little learning is a dangerous thing...

    Live Dangerously! Learn a Little!


    Dude, did Doogie Howser just steal my fucking car?

  9. #8
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    If you just want strength without a commensurate increase in size, you can train to optimize the nervous system. Otherwise, increased strength=increased muscle size. Now, people can argue this point all they want, but the facts are what they are. Yes, training with higher volume and reps might stimulate more growth of the non-contractile components of the musculature, but in a natural trainee this is a slight difference at best. As an interesting note, bodybuilders and powerlifters lifted in basically the same fashion for years and years. This was before steroids and other drugs entered the picture. Bodybuilding shows used to also include weightlifting in the competition. What does this tell us? Well, to me, it helps to drive home my point.

  10. #9
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    okay...so how exactly does one go about training to optimize the nervous system?

    i recall an argument about this in another thread.....but it had too many words in it....so if y'all could give me a clear and concise answer, i would appreciate it....
    A little learning is a dangerous thing...

    Live Dangerously! Learn a Little!


    Dude, did Doogie Howser just steal my fucking car?

  11. #10
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    High weight/low rep (1-5), or low weight (50-60% max)/high acceleration.

    BTW Chris, your alleged "fact" is incorrect because of the role of nutrition. Eat less than you burn you don't gain muscle, regardless of your training.

  12. #11
    Lord Kel Masters Sayiajin Prince's Avatar
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    which would actually be better, more carbs or more calories?
    "The whole jedi thing was just not compatible with my lifestyle. My master was jelous he was always holding me back, -"be mindfull of the future, but live in the present"- what the hell does that mean? I even got my arm cut off...it just sucked. So i switched to the dark side and i havent looked back once...Now i am shooting lightning from my fingertips, choking people over the phone, i even get to wear a cape.....its just boss. My name is Anikin skywalker and i am a sith lord."

    "i have the sex drive of 10 rabbits on viagra"

    age: 19
    height: 5'8'' (im lieing its probably 5'7'')
    weight: 159-165 lbs (morning and day)
    bodyfat: 8.6
    bench:315
    squat:405
    Deadlift:500

    goals for end of the year 405/500/600 at 170-175(with the 8pack)

    other: dips 3 and a quarter plates for 4 reps

  13. #12
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    1g of carbs have 4 calories, so if you eat more carbs than usual and you will be consuming more calories.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  14. #13
    Senior Member Wizard's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Sayiajin Prince
    which would actually be better, more carbs or more calories?
    More protein.It's the last macro that is going to be converted to fat.

  15. #14
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    BTW Chris, your alleged "fact" is incorrect because of the role of nutrition. Eat less than you burn you don't gain muscle, regardless of your training.
    -------Cackerot69

    Hey Cack, I've got another fact for you, you are a ......., ah heck, you're not worth the effort. I'll tell you what, in the future I will include every possible variable and every possible outcome to anything that I state . Do you ever think? Did my post have anything to do with diet, or was is concerned solely with training? Did Tryska's question have anything to do with restricting calories? Your comments are quite often very silly.

  16. #15
    WBBs motivational Speaker Rock's Avatar
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    High reps is for people who are afraid to show their strength by lifting heavy, WOOPSY DAISY MESA TOLD TO MUCH TRUTH IN ONE SENTENCE.
    A big thanks to all my friends in the USA, I am deeply grateful for your hospitality and kindness.

  17. #16
    Senior Member Wizard's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Rock
    High reps is for people who are afraid to show their strength by lifting heavy, WOOPSY DAISY MESA TOLD TO MUCH TRUTH IN ONE SENTENCE.
    That's wrong.I have made great progress with high reps.You saturate more muscles,and they grow.
    Last edited by Wizard; 07-28-2001 at 06:54 AM.

  18. #17
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by chris mason
    If you just want strength without a commensurate increase in size, you can train to optimize the nervous system. Otherwise, increased strength=increased muscle size. Now, people can argue this point all they want, but the facts are what they are. Yes, training with higher volume and reps might stimulate more growth of the non-contractile components of the musculature, but in a natural trainee this is a slight difference at best. As an interesting note, bodybuilders and powerlifters lifted in basically the same fashion for years and years. This was before steroids and other drugs entered the picture. Bodybuilding shows used to also include weightlifting in the competition. What does this tell us? Well, to me, it helps to drive home my point.
    Look, you're arguing for the sake of arguing here--

    The main difference between the styles, if you'll really look at it, is how the training of body parts is oriented towards a given lift.

    I said nothing that contradicts what you have to say-- 1, the nervous system is trained by the heavy limit weights for force and light explosive weights for power; 2, the component muscles of the given movements are trained either for hypertrophy or strength-endurance, depending.

    That's all-- your theories are safe, just being applied in a different way.

    Power
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  19. #18
    Senior Member Cackerot69's Avatar
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    I'm sorry to make you angry, Chris. I just thought yuor statement was a little vague so I decided to add upon it...you know, for the sake of completeness.

  20. #19
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Actually Powerman, you flatter yourself. I didn't even read your post (skimmed it at best), so I wasn't really responding to it.

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