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Thread: Ckd + Hiit

  1. #1
    Wannabebig Member
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    Ckd + Hiit

    Is it alright to due HIIT on a CKD diet? If I consume some pre/post carbs shouldn't it be ok?

  2. #2
    the stone cold stunner Ironman8's Avatar
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    HIIT usually uses fuel as fat, so I assume it would be o.k.
    You kill me in a dream, you better wake up and apologize....

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    Sweet Babboo carolinagirl's Avatar
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    If you target carbs around workouts it's a TKD. CKD is keto for a certain amount of time (usually a few days), then a carb-up/refeed. So if you're trying a true CKD you would not intake carbs pre- and post-workout. You would do your workouts (weights and/or HIIT) on days during and immediately after your carb-ups, and on the final day before carb-up (for depletion).
    You can't babysit this.

  4. #4
    Strongman
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    Yeah but CG you could do a TKD/CKD with the pre/post workout carbs AND the refeeds, which do NOT knock you out of Keto according to Lyle M.
    Four-Time World's Strongest Man

  5. #5
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ironman8
    HIIT usually uses fuel as fat, so I assume it would be o.k.
    HIIT is an anaerobic activity. The primary fuel is glycogen (carbs). Little fat is burned as fuel during the activity.

    However, some studies suggest that HIIT is more effective at reducing body fat than typical aerobic cardio, in which good amounts of fat are burned during the activity . Experts have offered several different explanations. Some think that HIIT increases metabolism and fat utilization for a long period after the activity. Some think that HIIT causes growth hormone levels to increase because of the high levels of lactic acid, and the growth hormone influences body composition. Some think that HIIT increases free fatty acid oxidation during recovery. Some think that HIIT reduces appetite more than other forms of cardio.

    I would recommend avoiding HIIT during periods of CKD where glycogen levels are low or other times when glycogen levels are low, such as before breakfast and after weights. HIIT also presents a signficant overtraining risk. I feel like I need a couple days to recover before another HIIT session or training the legs with weights. I do not need this much recovery from lower intesity forms of cardio.
    Last edited by aka23; 04-01-2003 at 09:44 PM.

  6. #6
    Sweet Babboo carolinagirl's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Magnus
    Yeah but CG you could do a TKD/CKD with the pre/post workout carbs AND the refeeds, which do NOT knock you out of Keto according to Lyle M.

    Hmmmm. I didn't know this.


    You interest me strangely. How would that work?
    You can't babysit this.

  7. #7
    Strongman
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    On days you workout, get your pre/post workout carbs as if you were doing a regular TKD. Those carbs should of course NOT be fructose, as they will head to the liver and converted to glycogen, potentially knocking out of keto (pretty sure that's what can happen, haven't read Lyle in a while).

    Then on the weekend or whenever, refeed for 36-48 hours. Lyle says something along of the lines of: because you are in keto, your body will not switch energy it's energy source back right away, which is why you do not wake up on monday as a total fat-a$$. Going to read about the science behind this and double check this stuff. It's been too long since Magnus read lyle.

    Oh yeah...Magnus IS strangely interesting
    Four-Time World's Strongest Man

  8. #8
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    I trust what Lyle says.

  9. #9
    Sweet Babboo carolinagirl's Avatar
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    Lyle said on the Avant forums recently something to the effect that he now thinks that the refeeds (due to leptin expression) are the key thing that makes cyclical dieting work, not the macro breakdown or the keto component.

    Here's a really long cut-and-paste of what he said. (He's responding to a guy who asked whether eating more carbs while cutting would keep leptin from rapid declension.)

    "The studies looking at leptin levels on a diet (calories < maintenance) show nearly no effect of macronutrient intake. Some early studies suggested taht higher fat intakes kept leptin levels up a little bit better but for the most part it's insignificant. Carbs, fat, protein, doesn't make an ounce of difference. What matters is caloric intake (and even that doesn't have nearly the impact that yo'ud think, leptin drops profoundly with any deficit, a little bit more with extreme deficits).

    Which, considering your comments in other threads regarding total cals being the larger determinant of results than all of the goofball sequencing nonsense folks come up with, should resonate with you.

    When you are pulling calories out of storage (b/c you are hypocaloric), the fat cell responds similarly no matter what the diet composition. In the short-term, leptin levels are responding to the fact that you are pulling calories (and this IS being sensed by a glucose specific mechanism via the hexosamine biosynthetic pathway but it still doesn't matter) out of them. Even on high-carbs, if you're hypocaloric, you're pulling calories out of the fat cell. Leptin drops because of it.

    As well, even if leptin did stay higher with the higher carbs, this would indicate one major thing: you were pulling LESS calories out of fat cells. This is contrary to the goals of a diet in the first place. Basically, don't lose sight of the goal of a diet: losing bodyfat while limiting muscle loss. Any intervention that limits your ability to do so is contrary to that goal. If higher carbs meant higher leptin, it'd also mean less calories coming out of fat cells. This would be a contradiction to the explicit goals of your diet. Of course, it turns out not to matter anyway.

    This isn't the case for hypercaloric feeding where, in the short-term, you'll see vast differences between carbs, fat and protein (carbs giving the best response).

    I thought that was kind of interesting.
    Last edited by carolinagirl; 04-02-2003 at 06:58 AM.
    You can't babysit this.

  10. #10
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    On days you workout, get your pre/post workout carbs as if you were doing a regular TKD. Those carbs should of course NOT be fructose, as they will head to the liver and converted to glycogen, potentially knocking out of keto (pretty sure that's what can happen, haven't read Lyle in a while).
    Some people can stay in ketosis when ingesting pre workoout carbs while on the TKD. The ingestion of post workout carbs would have a greater impact on ketosis because of the greater insulin response caused by post workout carbs. Although you should be back into ketosis after a couple of hours of ingesting the carbs.

    Carbs pre workout would probably be the best when performing a TKD. You do not necessarily have to ingest both pre and post workout carbs.

    I have not seen many anyone advise performing a TKD with refeeds every weekend. I am not saying you are wrong but that seems like a too many refeeds IMO.

  11. #11
    the stone cold stunner Ironman8's Avatar
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    Ya, refeeds every weekend might hinder the results.
    You kill me in a dream, you better wake up and apologize....

  12. #12
    Senior Member Fenbay's Avatar
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    I'm confused as usual .....

    In regards to Lyle's response there:

    Is he saying that refeeds regardless of macro break-down are the key to losing fat? IE: I'm spending 6 days a week below maintenance via whatever p/f/c break down I choose. Then on day 7 I kick up to over maintenance and that keeps my leptin levels up thus allowing more fat comsumption?

  13. #13
    Sweet Babboo carolinagirl's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Fenbay
    Is he saying that refeeds regardless of macro break-down are the key to losing fat? IE: I'm spending 6 days a week below maintenance via whatever p/f/c break down I choose.
    Yes, that's how I read it. In that and a couple of other posts he seems to say that the overall caloric deficit and the refeeds are the keys, not the macro breakdown. (In the other posts he says to get your chosen amount of protein plus ample EFA's, and the rest of the calories can come from carbs, extra protein, extra fat, whatever.)


    Then on day 7 I kick up to over maintenance and that keeps my leptin levels up thus allowing more fat comsumption?

    On day 7 you would ideally do a real, planned refeed, not just overeat calorie-wise (although that would probably work....) Ideally you would take in something like 300-600 grams of carbs, starting with simple ones (dextrose, malto, sucrose), then tapering to lower GI ones. Do a search on refeeds.

    Not sure what you mean about the fat "consumption" - if you mean higher leptin will allow more fat loss, then yes.
    Last edited by carolinagirl; 04-02-2003 at 07:51 AM.
    You can't babysit this.

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