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Thread: Affirmative acton lawsuit

  1. #26
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    I don't know Ice, you are trying to right a wrong, with more wrong. You are saying that entire groups are at a disadvantage, which in and of itself, is very, very vague, but then you believe that giving them an advantage is the solution. So this is just the same as disadvantaging someone else. So in the end, you are trying to solve a problem by using the same concepts that is at the very heart of what is causing this problem.

    Also, your argument about whining kids who didn't get in is flawed in that it can be easily reversed. If these kids get rejected and there are always other schools, why can't the minority groups, who haven't earned their way into top notch schools go find another school to accept them, instead of whining about how daddy only fed them grits for their childhood, or that they can't study because their great great grandfather was opressed?
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  2. #27
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    Speaking of studies, I have a test to study for so I am out of here for tonight. I'll catch up with this in the a.m. (AFTER my test )

    You're missing my point and oversimplifying my intentions, ElP, but we can have this conversation later...
    Last edited by IceRgrrl; 04-02-2003 at 02:39 PM.

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  3. #28
    Journalist galileo's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Fightin Irish
    I agree, the advantages should be given to those from a lower socioeconomic bracket. That's where the disadvantages come in.
    Then the rich, white, stupid males will complain that they can't get into the low-level college of their choice because of all the poor minorities. When does it end?

    Why not just allow everyone the opportunity to go to college equally and make up for economical differences with improved grant/loan systems? Easier said than done, I suppose.

  4. #29
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    My problem with all of this is the perceived need of diversity over needs of the people...we need competent doctors and lawyers that are at the very upper eschelon when it comes to intelligence and applicability of their respective fields...even with those who are economically disadvantaged, by the time they are done with their 4 year degree i believe the disadvantage should be erased *intellectually speaking*. When a factor that has no means of establishing potential such as race, gender, or economic status means the less intelligent and less capable individual gets ahead due to that factor, i think this is wrong. Some people don't test high, but GPA, interviews, letters of recommendation and entrance essays should be enough to accurately determine who is qualified for graduate school.
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  5. #30
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Originally posted by IceRgrrl


    I believe so...that's my opinion. Just as it's my opinion that the system is not as "deeply flawed" as it is made out to be.

    I haven't benefited from the system, being white and getting no aid for my studies, though I *did* get those 10 points from being from a frozen wasteland part of my state.
    What about being female? I don't know all the categories, but I'm sure that there are a lot of females that got in during the whole woman's movement. I think minority and gender have been treated as one and the same. I'm sure there are countless companies that have had or still have quotas on women in management, or just total female employees. When I was at IBM, I worked for some butch whore, who basically went to all these "women in industry" meetings and groups, and guess what, all supervisors under her were female, and the majority of the staff in her department as well. And it seemed that anytime there was praise or promotion, the majority if not all was given to female employees.

    This is not what I consider balancing the field. You have to look at things on an individual basis, and not industry wide. If I lost a job to a more qualified female or male, I'd be the first to tip my hat to them, but if I lost to an underqualified female who was just there as window dressing, I sure as hell would be upset.

    And no I'm not saying that you are that kind of female, I know your work ethic, and all that, so I know you have more than earned your spot, and probably are much more deserving of an even better placement, than where you are now.
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    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

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  6. #31
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    Originally posted by galileo


    Why not just allow everyone the opportunity to go to college equally and make up for economical differences with improved grant/loan systems? Easier said than done, I suppose.
    That would be a great idea! I would love for our government to spend more money on education for it's citizenry instead of constantly cutting school and university budgets and grant programs.

    And now I REALLY do need to go and study...I'm just enjoying ths conversation too much.... *zips lips and leaves the room*

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  7. #32
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Originally posted by IceRgrrl
    You're missing my point and oversimplifying my intentions, ElP, but we can have this conversation later...
    Maybe you are right, or maybe you are not right, but almost right enough, that the fact that you are female will give you enough argumentative validity to topple my male argument!

    I'm sorry, I had to take that jab at you, I know you're a big girl and can take it.


    Ps. Don't take offense at being called a big girl, I mean big as a person, not as in "your big." Jeez stop being so sensitive!





    Ok we can discuss later.
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    Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

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  8. #33
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  9. #34
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Friends don't let friends do dumbell kickbacks. - Me

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    A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls. -- Dan Quayle

    If do right, no can defense. -- Mr. Miyagi

    Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

    Current FFFA Enforcer

  10. #35
    Journalist galileo's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ElPietro
    Don't take offense at being called a big girl, I mean big as a person, not as in "your big." Jeez stop being so sensitive!
    Her big what? Or did we just see why a minority got into Harvard for English over you?


  11. #36
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    Originally posted by IceRgrrl
    When I applied to U of Michigan, applicants from the Upper Peninsula got 10 points b/c they were making an effort to recruit and attract more students from that under-represented area in the state.
    Yoopers should be a protected class. You should have went to Tech too.

  12. #37
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    Its kind of an insult to minorities, saying there not smart enough to get in on there own.
    I think I might even agree ELP when it comes to things liek doctors we want the best.

  13. #38
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    I hate this issue of Affirmative Action It should be moth-balled.

    Applicants should be taken on:

    1. Age
    2. Recent Education Level
    3. Grades

    Applicants should be a genderless, faceless, nameless, colourless number, just as ElP said.

    If that isn't fair, I don't know what is.

    Anyone that tries to pull the 'race card', or any other minority crap should be disqualified from applying to any University or post seconday institution. Might aswell make it a harsh punishment from the outset to set an example.
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  14. #39
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    Originally posted by JD77
    I agree with ElP. A code given to each applicant would remove all favoritism and truly level the field for everyone.
    Yes, and they should also take all children born and randomly assign them parents and schools and economic status so that they are all on an "even" playing field.

    As gender goes, there is and has been a focus (in lower schools) on the sciences and compartmentalized course work (math, science, geography) with a lack of focus on the less segmented course work such as social sciences, speech and communications and networking. Estrogen plays a key role in the development of the brain and particularly in the development of the nerve structure combining the lobes of the brain leading to women being less compartmentalized by nature.

    Going a little further, if your parents were not well educated (most minorities born 40 years ago were not well educated) then it stands to reason that it would be more difficult for you to excel in your education than someone who's parents were well educated.

    LIFE is where you get an advantage by being more qualified, and in all honesty I have never heard of anyone not being able to find a college at all, just maybe not the one they wanted.

    The playing field is NOT level when we are born.
    Last edited by Tiare; 04-02-2003 at 10:03 PM.
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  15. #40
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    Originally posted by IceRgrrl

    d getting no aid for my studies, though I *did* get those 10 points from being from a frozen wasteland part of my state.
    HEY I went to college in that frozen wasteland! While you went to the land of the Trolls, I went to your hellish winters. I even felt like I was in a different country when street signs were in both Finnish and English.

    The running joke though is that Michigan lost the Michigan Wisconsin War and as part of the deal you had to take "da UP"

    But back to the discussion at hand, I don't like the quota system. I feel that race (or gender for that matter) shouldn't matter nor should it even be included on the application. I see no problem with someone having a scholarship that is for one set race, bc it's likely that someone of that ethnic background donated the ching to found it (so let them do whateverthehell they want with their money).

    Just a cheesehead's two cents

  16. #41
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    Originally posted by maverick
    I hate this issue of Affirmative Action It should be moth-balled.

    Applicants should be taken on:

    1. Age
    2. Recent Education Level
    3. Grades

    Applicants should be a genderless, faceless, nameless, colourless number, just as ElP said.

    If that isn't fair, I don't know what is.

    Age is a protected class. I can't see why it would mater for a college appilcation. For a job diferant story, though not legally. I read somewhere what companies consider to old is now lower, early forties.

  17. #42
    Senior Member JD77's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tiare


    Yes, and they should also take all children born and randomly assign them parents and schools and economic status so that they are all on an "even" playing field.

    As gender goes, there is and has been a focus (in lower schools) on the sciences and compartmentalized course work (math, science, geography) with a lack of focus on the less segmented course work such as social sciences, speech and communications and networking. Estrogen plays a key role in the development of the brain and particularly in the development of the nerve structure combining the lobes of the brain leading to women being less compartmentalized by nature.

    Going a little further, if your parents were not well educated (most minorities born 40 years ago were not well educated) then it stands to reason that it would be more difficult for you to excel in your education than someone who's parents were well educated.

    LIFE is where you get an advantage by being more qualified, and in all honesty I have never heard of anyone not being able to find a college at all, just maybe not the one they wanted.

    The playing field is NOT level when we are born.

    Tiare, after reading that, I can't tell if you're pro affirmative action or not.

    affirmative action, Tiare, doesn't give minorities an advantage in obtaining well-to-do or intelligent parents. It does, however, allow them favoritism in college and employment selection.

    I think a level playing field is attainable in something like college acceptance but obviously it's unreachable SOME aspects of life. You expect to be treated on a level playing field in other situations. Should a person of minority be seated before you at a restaurant if you got there first? Of course not. If you get there first, you should be seated first. Just like in college or employment, if you are more qualified, you should be hired or accepted first.

    Should I be given bonus points if I tryout for football at my local college because most of the athletes are black and now I'm the minority? Hello no I shouldn't. The better player should get to play.
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  18. #43
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    Okay, let me reiterate again that my main concern in this discussion is an accurate representation of the facts of the case, the U of M admissions process, and the situation it was designed for. My personal opinions are another matter and I shall make sure to flag them as "opinion" to keep things clear.

    I did a little research since yesterday, being the fact-based, analytically trained person that I am, and here is what I unearthed:

    1. There are TWO separate lawsuits challenging the undergraduate admissions policy and the Law School graduate admissions policy.

    2. The courts have side-stepped the issue of race as a consideration in the lawsuits and are basing the trial on the issue of "diversity" which takes into account many more factors (race, ethnicity, socio-economic status, gender, geographical location, age, veteran's status, citizenship, extra-cirricular activities, etc.) in addition to race (even though that is the one category that gets the most press), and to what extent a public institution can consider these other factors in their policies.

    3. The admissions policy was designed in response to a two-part issue, the first being a remedial component that addressed the fact/admission that in the recent past, the U of Michigan HAD discriminated against minority candidates. Much like with the current allegations/sanctions against the Michigan basketball program, remedies/penalties for past transgressions are levied in the present and may have an effect on current students. The second issue was that the University student population was not reflective of the state or national population in terms of minority/majority make-up.

    4. The admissions policy does not establish quotas or "set-asides" for minority candidates. Those were ruled unconstitutional by the Regents of Univ. of California vs. Bakke decision which DID rule that race was an allowable consideration in admissions so long as quotas/set-asides were not established.

    5. The admissions policy at U of Michigan is similar to that used by other large, public institutions which cannot sort through the hugh influx of individual applications by hand (unlike small colleges or private colleges which may be able to consider applicants one by one) and thus uses a "point system" to sort through as a first pass. Points are assigned in the following manner:

    Part I: Academics; MAXIMUM of 110 pts. from this section

    GPA:
    2.0 = 40 pts.
    2.1 = 42 pts.
    2.2 = 44 pts.
    etc. to
    4.0 = 80 pts.

    Test scores
    ACT 1-19 or SAT 400-920 = 0 pts.
    ACT 20-21 or SAT 930-1000 = 6 pts.
    ACT 22-26 or SAT 1010-1190 = 10 pts.
    ACT 27-30 or SAT 1200-1350 = 11 pts.
    ACT 31-36 or SAT 1360-1600 = 12 pts.

    High school quality
    0 = 0 pts.
    1 = 2 pts.
    2 = 4 pts.
    3 = 6 pts.
    4 = 8 pts.
    5 = 10 pts.

    Difficulty of high school cirriculum
    -2 = -4 pts.
    -1 = -2 pts.
    0 = 0 pts.
    1 = 2 pts.
    2 = 4 pts.
    3 = 6 pts.
    4 = 8 pts.

    Part II: MAXIMUM of 40 pts. allowed from this section

    Geography
    Michigan resident = 10 pts.
    Underrepresented Michigan county = 6 pts.
    Underrepresented state = 2 pts.

    Alumni
    Legacy (parents, step-parents) = 4 pts.
    Other (grandparents, siblings) = 1 pts.

    Essay
    Very good = 1 pt.
    Excellent = 2 pts.
    Outstanding = 3 pts.

    Personal acheivement
    State = 1 pt.
    Regional = 2 pts.
    National = 5 pts.

    Leadership and Service
    State = 1 pt.
    Regional = 2 pts.
    National = 5 pts.

    Miscellaneous (Only one allowed)
    Socio-economic disadvantage = 20 pts.
    Underrepresented racial/ethnic minority identification or education = 20 pts.
    Men in nursing = 5 pts.
    Scholarship athlete = 20 pts.
    Provost's discretion = 20 pts.

    TOTAL POSSIBLE POINTS = 150

    (SOURCE: Newsweek, January 27, 2003 issue)

    From this breakdown, one can see that an applicant's total score depends on a wide variety of factors and race is one small part. Out of 150 possible points, 110 points are based on academics. Also, no one seems to be much concerned that a scholarship athlete earns 20 pts. towards his/her admissions score, the same amount of points awarded for minority status, which is very interesting, in my opinion.

    For those who are interested in a very good discussion of the history of this case, the factors under consideration, and some very well-written editorials both pro and con on this issue, the January 27, 2003 Newsweek devotes a large section to coverage from many angles.
    Last edited by IceRgrrl; 04-03-2003 at 11:20 AM.

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  19. #44
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    I gotta wonder how this affirmative action crap is gonna go when whites become a minority. It isn't ALL THAT far off, either.
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  20. #45
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    Originally posted by Gyno Rhino
    I gotta wonder how this affirmative action crap is gonna go when whites become a minority. It isn't ALL THAT far off, either.
    That's a very good point.

    To build on that though, I think one has to distinguish between the population majority and the power majority, as in which group controls the policy, resources, and decision-making in a society. Under the British Empire in India for example, Indians were a majority in terms of population but the British were the power majority who held sway over policy and law.
    Last edited by IceRgrrl; 04-03-2003 at 08:58 AM.

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  21. #46
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    Originally posted by IceRgrrl

    I'm sure that being a Bush, being a legacy, and a whole host of other "affirmative factors" got mediocre student George W. into Yale It seems a bit hypocritical that he and his cronies are criticizing the admissions systems at universities, when they themselves have had every advantage since birth.
    yes, interesting, isn't it

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  23. #48
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    Originally posted by Berserker

    Age is a protected class. I can't see why it would mater for a college appilcation. For a job diferant story, though not legally. I read somewhere what companies consider to old is now lower, early forties.
    Yes, it may be a protected class, but, say for example if my grandfather, who is 74, went back to school. He's been out of school for about 55 years. It might be a good idea if someone knew that, don't you think?
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    I would be curious to see the graduation rates of minority students who are admitted with lower standards. I would be willing to bet they are far lower than people who are admitted based on non race factors.

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    Originally posted by Neil
    I would be curious to see the graduation rates of minority students who are admitted with lower standards. I would be willing to bet they are far lower than people who are admitted based on non race factors.
    First of all, minority students are not admitted with lower standards under the policy addressed in the U of M lawsuit. If you look at the points breakdown, academic factors are the major factor in admissions with race being one small factor. ALL students must meet the standards based on a large variety of factors. Those who are unqualified or less qualified simply do not make the cut.

    Secondly, exit grades/scores HAVE been used to assess the effectiveness of admissions policies AND to check the performance of selected groups against majority students. Overwhelmingly, the exit scores of minorities are on par with that of majority students. That is, given the same opportunity to learn/excel, the minority students do as well overall as the majority.

    As a contrast, I would point out that students admitted under athletic scholarships for big time sports programs, such as football and basketball for example, a) are as a group less qualified than many incoming students and were probably selected over non-athletes who were MORE qualified academically, and b) as a group have horribly below average exit scores/grades IF they graduate at all (and those who leave school to go to the pros are a small percentage of the total student-athlete body). If we want to examine preferential treatment, I think that this would be the place to start. However, this dove-tails with a whole different and overlapping discussion about the hypocrisy of the "student-athlete", how colleges use the amateur status of college athletes, and the NCAA regulations on amateur athletes.
    Last edited by IceRgrrl; 04-03-2003 at 11:00 AM.

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