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Thread: Training Log

  1. #1201
    Wounded Deadlifter ryan1117's Avatar
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    I was wondering how you are able to get more than 3 points on the body? I thought I remember reading that you had the digital self-measuring calipers. I have those and I can't seem to be able to come anywhere near a reliable measurement on my own.
    5-9 170

  2. #1202
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    ryan1117,

    I do skinfold measures at eight points: Biceps, Triceps, Chest, Axilla, Abdomen, Suprailiac, Thigh, and Subscapular. I find measuring five of these points relatively simple. For the Axilla, Abdomen, Chest Sprailiac, and Thigh; I just pinch with one hand and measure with the other. My digital callipers remember the measurements, so I do not need to read the screen while measuring. Nine body fat formulas and basic measurement instructions are listed at http://maelstrom.seos.uvic.ca/people...f_methods.html . Using these five measures, you can get a bf estimate with the JP-3 or ??-4 forumals.

    The remaining three measures I use are more difficult without outside assistance. I do biceps and triceps measures with only a single hand. This probably reduces accuracy, but I am not especially concerned since I carry an insignificant amount of fat in these areas, and these two measures have never changed throughout the course of the journal.

    I have been doing the weekly measures myself using the digitial skinfold callipers described at http://www.affordablesupplements.com/fat_track.asp . This calliper stores the skinfold measures after you click the measure button. This allows me to do the hard-to-reach subscapular (back) measure myself. I would need assistance if I had an analog type calliper without memory. Nevertheless, I feel that the subscapular measure may be less accurate than the others. I feel the measure is reasonably accurate since it is consitistent and when I started this journal, the measurements I took were nearly identical to the ones the personal trainer took at the gym. I use one hand to get the proper location using marks such as the subscapular bone and pinch the skin, then I use the second hand to take the measure. Adding these three more difficult measures allows you to use six additional formulas from the page: JP-7, PA-3, L-3, FS-4, L-2, and DW-4

    The reamaining formula on the page requires calf and lower back measures. I do not take measures in these spots because the skin on my calf is too tight to pinch and measure, and the lower back measure is uncomfortably close to my kidney.

    You can download the spreadsheet that I use to do the calculations at http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...ock#post493036 . Save it to your computer by right-clicking. I believe that skin calliper measures are most useful for consistent measures and tracking changes, so I am not especially concerned about poor accuracy with some of the skinfold measures. If you want a truly accurate measure of body fat, there are better methods, such as underwater weighting.

  3. #1203
    Senior Member Wikked1's Avatar
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    STILL completely shredded (no surprises there) Looking good Aka now if only we can talk you into a tripod you can change up your poses a little bit! Still look great man!

  4. #1204
    The Pounder YoBrickWall's Avatar
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    yo aka- how tall are you, weight and b.f. now. when i come back from vegas before changing my diet ill try the 8 point measurement yo talking about. then see as i go on what it reads compared to the chest, abs and thigh reading. ill do both just to compare.

    YBW

  5. #1205
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    Wikked1,

    Thanks. I do not plan to get a stand and use the self timer until my left arm returns to its usual size. My left arm still looks lean, but the tricep area is significantly smaller than the right arm. The bicep, deltoid, and chest are also a bit smaller. Hopefully my size will return quickly after I begin lifting, and hopefully my doctor will okay returning to weightlifting when I see him this afternoon.


    YoBrickWall,

    I am 6ft and ~175lb. The seven body fat formulas report an average of 3.5%. The lowest is 2.5% with the JP-3 (chest, abdomen, thigh), and the highest is 4.3% with the S-2 (thigh, subscapular). I do not know what my actual body fat is. I suspect it is significantly higher than most of these formulas predict since such formulas often underestimate bf in leaner persons, younger persons, and active persons. Such formulas work reasonably well for average men, but they often do not work as well for people who are not in the typical bf range, not typical age, athletes, or persons who store fat in atypical areas.
    Last edited by aka23; 09-12-2003 at 01:24 PM.

  6. #1206
    The Pounder YoBrickWall's Avatar
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    yo aka23- does that also go by age group or do you just use the reading you get. reason wondering cause when i went by age group, they put in as a twenty yr old and i was below 2 but as a fourtyseven yr it was about 4 if i remeber right.
    i talked to a judge about it one time and he was agaisnt age charts cause he said who was to say a twenty yr was in better shape than a fourty yr if the reading was the same. after punching age group the younger person would be leaner. whats yo opinion on that

    YBW

  7. #1207
    Wannabebig Member
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    YoBrickWall,

    I believe that the reason for the age groupings is that older persons store more visceral fat than younger persons. Therefore, if an old man and someone younger have the same skinfold readings (which only measures subcutaneous fat), the old man would have a higher bodyfat percentage, due to his higher visceral fat stores. The age-graded formulas you mention try to account for the variance in visceral fat among different age groups.

    I think I heard that somewhere, but perhaps AKA can clear it up for us.

  8. #1208
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    I agree with ebrunner. Some body fat formulas assume an age related decline in bone density and an increase in visceral (internal) body fat. This results in an older person having a higher body fat than a younger person with the same skinfold measures. Such assumptions work reasonably well for the average population who is within a certain age range. However, they work poorly for athletes like bodybuilders. It might be useful to compare the results between bf formulas that depend on age and ones that do not. In the links I listed earlier the L-3, FS-4, and P-9 formulas do not depend on age.

    Note that most body fat formulas were created by studying younger adults, so most formulas would not work well for children or adults in their 40s. Similarly most formulas did not study athletes or very lean persons. I doubt that any of the formulas would work well for bodybuilding competitions.

    As I mentioned earlier, skin calliper measures are most useful for consistent measures and tracking changes. If the skinfolds are increasing, then you are probably gaining fat. If the skinfolds are decreasing, then you are probably losing fat. The body fat measures are only a rough estimate, and do not work well for many special groups. If you want an accurate measure of bf instead of a way to track changes, then there are better measurement techniques than skinfolds.

  9. #1209
    The Pounder YoBrickWall's Avatar
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    yo ebruner and aka23- thanks for the info. it makes sense what yo telling me. just seems lik the chart was made up of average people not for someone lik myself.i know that there arent alot of people my age in the shape or have the strength i havetoo. but ether way also i agree about the skin folds are great for letting yo know if yo gaining or losing fat. thanks again

    YBW

  10. #1210
    Ash "Money" Hegde Y2A's Avatar
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    I think your measurements are off, you look appromately 15-18% bf IMO. Fat bastard... its Saturday, you better have plans to go get some chicks
    "We fight our battles, we wage our wars, we settle the score, with honor and blood" - Atreyu

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  11. #1211
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Y2A
    I think your measurements are off, you look appromately 15-18% bf IMO. Fat bastard... its Saturday, you better have plans to go get some chicks
    I don't know about 15% , but I do think that the formulas tend to underestimate my bf since I am younger, leaner, and more athletic than average.

    So far today I have slept in, gone to the gym, gone shopping, done laundry/chores, looked at TV, and surfed the Internet. I am about to install DSL on my computer and do some minor home repair. I did see quite a few attractive ladies at the gym, far more than usual for this time period. I doubt that I will be seeing any ladies this evening. I will keep your recommendation in mind for the future.
    Last edited by aka23; 09-13-2003 at 05:46 PM.

  12. #1212
    little man pruneman's Avatar
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    just stoppin in to say hello
    The world acording to prune

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  13. #1213
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    Hi, Pruneman

    Wednesday’s Training Log

    Sleep
    I slept approximately 4 hours using 20mg Restoril, then took a 1.5 hour nap after Meal 3.


    Weights, Push day
    • One-armed Dumbbell Incline Press – Warmup Sets, 80x8 (+2R), 85x4 (+5lb)
      This is the third time I have done one-armed dumbbell incline presses. My two-armed PR from before the accident was 85x7. In previous weeks, I have been surprised that I was so close to my two-armed PR since using one-arm requires more balance. I now realize that the difference is I am starting with one-armed incline presses, and I used to do two-armed incline presses after being worn out from doing flat presses.
    • Hammer Strength Decline Press3plates+5 per side x 7 (+2.5lb ps)
    • Hammer Strength Wide Chest – 3plates+10 per side x 8 (+2R), 3p+12.5 x 7 (+2.5lb ps)
      This is my second time using the wide chest machine. I gained 2.5lb and a rep on the second set.
    • Hammer Strength Military Press1plate+37.5 per side x 7 (+2.5lb), 1p+27.5 per side x 8 (+1R)
    • One-armed Dumbbell Front Raises - 40x9 (+1R), 45x4 (+5lb)
      I am tempted to start doing these at home, where I can increment by 2.5lb. I feel like 40lb is too light and 45lb is too heavy.
    • One-armed Dumbbell Skullcrushers – Warmup Set, 50x9 (+1R), 55x4 (+1R)
      This is my second time doing dumbbell skullcrushers. I plan to alternate between db lying triceps extensions and db skullcrushers.
    • One-armed Triceps Pushdown – Warmup Set, 105x7 (+2R), 100x10 (+2R)
      I tried a new position in which the pulley is on side. I plan to continue with this method.
    • Steep Incline SitupsBW+80 x 11 (New), BW+45 x 15
      This is the first time I have done incline situps at the gym. I set the angle as steep as possible, which is steeper than my setup at home.
    Bold = Largest weight ever used for given exercise
    (+X lb) = Personal Best -- added X lbs to record maximum
    (+X R) = Personal Best -- added X reps to max at given weight

    General Comments
    This was supposed to be a leg day. Instead I did a push workout since my legs were still feeling sore. This was an excellent workout. I had good gains on almost all exercises and set many max weight PRs.


    Cardio
    Elliptical Trainer, Intervals
    This is a new workout. I have done short elliptical trainer interval programs following my treadmill workouts, but I have never done this many hill programs in a row or done elliptical trainer intervals for this long a period.

    My workout is summarized below. Each hill program included a warmup and fixed intensity period before the intervals. The first and third program was at a record high level. The second was at one level lower. My HR stayed in the 80-90%MHR range during most of the intervals. My HR dropped down to near 75%MHR during the two later warmup periods. The max HR I can reach on a elliptical trainer is about 93%MHR regardless of effort or intensity. I probably will be a few % lower than this until I am generating force with my left arm, along with my right.
    • ~3 minutes -- Warmup
    • 5 minutes –- fixed intensity
    • 8 minutes –- 4 intervals, 1 min work / 1 min recovery
    • ~3 minutes -- warmup
    • 7 minutes –- fixed intensity
    • 18 minutes –- 9 intervals, 1 min work / 1 min recovery
    • ~2 minutes -- warmup
    • 4 minutes -- fixed intensity
    • 6 minutes -- 4 intervals, 45 sec work / 45 sec recovery
    • ~3 minutes -- cooldown

    Diet
    • ~3700 calories
    • Snack 1 - Oatmeal, 1 package broccoli, 1-2 oz turkey breast, a few peanuts
    • Snack 2 - Large bowl oatmeal, 1-2 oz turkey breast, a few peanuts
    • Snack 3 - Air-popped popcorn, 1-2 oz turkey breast
    • Meal 1 - Large bowl Shredded Wheat with skim milk and cut up banana, small serving turkey breast
    • Snack 4 - 2 plums
    • Meal 2 - Large bowl black beans mixed with brown rice, sweet potato, small serving turkey breast, a few peanuts
    • Meal 3 - Large bowl oatmeal, chicken breast, brown rice, pear, 1 package green beans, a few peanuts
    • Meal 4 - Large bowl Kashi Heart to Heart cereal with skim milk, 1 package peas, 1 ear corn, banana, 1-2 oz turkey breast

    Supplements
    1g flax oil, 4g fish oil
    Last edited by aka23; 09-14-2003 at 02:55 AM.

  14. #1214
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    Originally posted by aka23
    Hopefully my size will return quickly after I begin lifting, and hopefully my doctor will okay returning to weightlifting when I see him this afternoon.
    My doctor approved weightlifting with "light" weights. I plan to start back up with a program that resembles HST in some ways. I will be doing low weight, low volume, high rep sets 3x per week. I will probably use compound dumbbell exercises 2x per week and machines 1x per week. I will slowly increment weight and intensity, while decreasing reps. If all goes well, then my doctor will approve heavier weights in a few weeks, once I start reaching the medium/lower reps. I will only be making this change for exercises that require my left arm (left back, left chest, left shoulder, left tricep, left bicep). I will continue with my Push/Legs/Pull medium reps workout for the rest of my body.
    Last edited by aka23; 09-14-2003 at 01:07 PM.

  15. #1215
    Ash "Money" Hegde Y2A's Avatar
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    Originally posted by aka23
    I did see quite a few attractive ladies at the gym, far more than usual for this time period.
    Sweet. Hopefully things will happen that will allow you to start a conversation with some of then. Lay the foundation so that you can lay the pipe I couldnt beleive that you used smileys in two of your posts What did you do with the REAL aka?
    "We fight our battles, we wage our wars, we settle the score, with honor and blood" - Atreyu

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  16. #1216
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    Y2A,

    I find things much easier when others start conversations or when there is an outside reason for the conversation. My arm injury has been helpful in this respect. More people at the gym have been starting conversations with me than ever before. After seeing the scar people ask, "What happened to your arm?", "Did you have recent surgery?", etc. I will make a post if anything eventful happens.

  17. #1217
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    Thursday’s Training Log

    Sleep
    I slept approximately 4 hours using 20mg Restoril, then took a 1.5 hour nap after Meal 3.


    Weights, Legs & Lower Back
    • Almost Full Smith Squats – Warmup Sets, 275x8 (+5lb)
      I am calling them “almost full” because they were done well below parallel, but too high to call them full squats. I added 5lb and a rep. I now have sufficient ROM to hold the bar with both hands in the normal grip position. Next time I plan to do regular squats without the smith machine.
    • Slow Full Smith Squats with Pause215x8 (+10lb)
    • Smith Machine Deep Rear Lunges105x8/8 (+10lb)
      This is my second time doing rear lunges. The Deep indicates that I went unnaturally low on the first set. I would not have been comfortable going this low without the safety and reduced balance of the smith machine.
    • Smith Machine Rear Lunges155x8/8 (+10lb)
    • Smith Machine Good Mornings170x8 (+10lb)
      These felt easier than usual. I think my form is improving.
    • Standing Calf Raise MachineStack+60 (460)x14 (+10lb)
      I might switch to the smith machine next time. I am not sure how much more weight is safe to add to the stack.
    Bold = Largest weight ever used for given exercise
    (+X lb) = Personal Best -- added X lbs to record maximum
    (+X R) = Personal Best -- added X reps to max at given weight

    General Comments
    I reduced the volume on this workout to just six sets, so the workout would not interfere with my cardio sessions as much. In the future I plan to alternate between low and regular volume leg days. This was another excellent session. I set a new max weight PR on all working sets, and several of those increases were quite significant amounts.

    I am not sure if I am going to switch this workout to my home gym next time are not. Some of the advantages of the home gym are having a traditional rack (my 24 Hour Fitness does not have one), no travel, no waiting for equipment, and not having anyone watching me. Some of the disadvantages are no calf equipment; increased injury risk to my arm, especially when doing lunges outside of rack; and more difficulty changing plates (will load/unload 45lb plates with single hand). If I do switch the workout to home, then I will only do so on my lower volume leg days and will still do the high volume work at the gym.


    Cardio
    Cycling, Low Intensity, Long Duration
    I decided to do a very low intensity workout, so my legs would be in good shape for running tomorrow. This is the second time I have ever done this active recovery work on a weight day. In the past I have always done active recovery on rest days.


    Diet
    • ~3600 calories
    • Snack 1 – Oatmeal, 1 package broccoli, 1-2 oz snapper fillet, a few peanuts
    • Snack 2 - Oatmeal, 1-2 oz snapper fillet, a few peanuts
    • Snack 3 – Air-popped popcorn, 1-2 oz snapper fillet
    • Meal 1 - Large bowl Shredded Wheat with skim milk and cut-up banana, small serving snapper filet
    • Meal 2 – Large bowl black beans mixed with brown rice, sweet potato, small serving snapper fillet, plum, a few peanuts
    • Meal 3 - Large bowl oatmeal, canned tuna, brown rice, 1 package green beans, pear, a few peanuts
    • Meal 4 – Organic Oats cereal with skim milk, 1 ear corn, 1 package brussel sprouts, 1-2 oz snapper fillet, peach
    I ran out of poultry last night. My only source of animal meat will be fish until I get to the supermarket on Saturday.

    Supplements
    4g flax oil, 1g fish oil
    Last edited by aka23; 09-15-2003 at 07:56 AM.

  18. #1218
    Equal Opportunity Offender Budiak's Avatar
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    So, uh, how many brussel sprouts are in a 'package'?

  19. #1219
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Budiak
    So, uh, how many brussel sprouts are in a 'package'?
    When I say 1 "package" vegetables, I am referring to the 10oz rectangular packages in the frozen section of the supermarket. One 10oz package is ~3.5 USDA servings or ~30 brussel sprouts.
    Last edited by aka23; 09-15-2003 at 07:59 AM.

  20. #1220
    Senior Member Wikked1's Avatar
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    So Aka how do you like doing the reverse lunges in the smith?
    I agree with you about the added balance and saftey but I was wondering what you thought of them?

  21. #1221
    zen idiot Scott S's Avatar
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    LOL... HST strikes again!

    What is a "Wide Chest" machine?

  22. #1222
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    Wikked1,
    I enjoy the smith machine rear lunges. My glutes were sore for days after the first time I did deep lunges. I like how I am able to go down lower in the smith machine than would be possible with a traditional barbell. I also like how there is little chance of injury in the smith machine. This could be a potentially dangerous exercise for my arm when using a barbell. Once I am recovered, I plan to return to forward/walking lunges outside of the smith machine. I feel like forward lunges work the muscles in a similar way, and I like how they use more balance. I will probably substitute rear smith lunges for the forward lunges every now and then.

    Scott S,
    A Hammer Strength ISO Wide Chest machine is pictured at http://groups.msn.com/saleandbuyused...to&PhotoID=131 . You push in a forward and inward motion, as if a press was combined with a fly.

    HST sounds like a well thought out program, with many possible benefits. I like how the methods are supported by research and studies. If I have good results while recovering with my arm, I may incorporate more of the principles into my regular routine.
    Last edited by aka23; 09-15-2003 at 03:05 PM.

  23. #1223
    zen idiot Scott S's Avatar
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    Neat. My gym has something like that. I've always thought of it as more of a decline-press-machine-thingy.

    One thing I've found about HST is that it's psychologically difficult to do the Strategic Deconditioning. I was just itching to get back into the gym! I was pleased to find out today that I didn't lose any strength.

  24. #1224
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Scott S
    Neat. My gym has something like that. I've always thought of it as more of a decline-press-machine-thingy.
    The picture does look a lot like a decline press. The page at http://www.hammerstrength.com/pdf/hs_overview.pdf shows the two machines on the same page and gives information about starting resistance. One easy way to tell the difference is by the labeling.

    Originally posted by Scott S
    One thing I've found about HST is that it's psychologically difficult to do the Strategic Deconditioning. I was just itching to get back into the gym! I was pleased to find out today that I didn't lose any strength.
    I know how you feel about "intching" to get back in the gym. I took about 5 weeks off because of my injury, and it felt great to be lifting again. I did lose a good amount of strength, or at least I was not able to lift as much as before. Much of the difference may be related to nuerological adaptions, rather than lost muscle. I will post more detail about the workout later this evening, in a training log.
    Last edited by aka23; 09-15-2003 at 09:16 PM.

  25. #1225
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    Friday’s Training Log

    Sleep
    I slept approximately 5 hours using 20mg Restoril.


    Weights
    Injured Arm Day
    As I briefly mentioned earlier, I am beginning lifting with a program for my injured arm that has many things in common with HST. I will be doing sets of 15 reps for the next 1-2 weeks, and will be lifting ~3x per week. I will increase sets and weights depending on how my arm feels, both during the lifts and while recovering. Today was the first day of this program, and was the first time I have lifted more than a few lbs with my left hand in about 5 weeks. My doctor has only approved lifting “light” weights (I started this workout immediately after returning from the doctor), so I kept everything far below failure. To reduce risk of re-injury, all lifts were done slowly with extremely strict form.

    • One-armed Dumbbell Row – 35x15
      These felt easy. I probably chose too light a weight.
    • One-armed Dumbbell Flat Press – 35x15
      My arm was trembling while doing these. I have the strength to do the presses, but I think I lack the balance/stabilization. I stabilized the db with the fingers on my right hand to insure that my arm would not tip. I plan to switch to incline presses in future workouts to reduce this issue.
    • One-armed Dumbbell Shoulder Press – 25x15
      These felt easy. I probably chose too light a weight.
    • One-armed Dumbbell Triceps Extensions – 15x15
    • One-armed Dumbbell Pullover – 15x15
      My arm was trembling while doing both the triceps extensions and the pullovers, but to a lesser extent than with the flat presses. Again, I think the problem was balance related.
    • One-armed Seated Curl – 15x15
    • One-armed Seated Lateral Raise – 7.5x15
    Bold = Largest weight ever used for given exercise
    (+X lb) = Personal Best -- added X lbs to record maximum
    (+X R) = Personal Best -- added X reps to max at given weight

    General Comments
    My reduced ROM was a problem during many of these lifts. I was unable to fully bend my arm, so I was unable to have complete range of motion when doing many of the exercises. I had to move the weights very slowly when near the edge of my ROM to avoid pain and reduce risk of injury.

    This workout only took about 15 minutes. If my arm does not bother me, then I will increase volume the next time. It felt strange to use such light weights. In some of these exercises, I used to do sets at more than 3x the weights I used today. Even though I did not go near failure, I could tell than my max lifts were far below their previous levels. I suspect most were in the neighborhood of half their previous values. I suspect that this will improve quickly, due to various adaptations.


    Cardio
    Running, Medium-->High Intensity / Elliptical Trainer, Intervals
    I did an increasing speed workout on the treadmill followed by two short hill programs on the elliptical trainer. This was my second time doing this workout since the injury. My performance improved a great deal over the first time.

    I started at 7.5mph, then increased by 0.5mph every 5 minutes until reaching 10mph, the max speed of the treadmill. I was able to do the full 5 minutes at 10mph. This max interval felt easier than I remember it feeling during my sessions from before the accident. Howeve,r my HR rate was higher than usual.

    After getting off the treadmill, I did two hill programs on the elliptical trainer with 39-second intervals. During my previous session, I ran out of steam during these intervals and quickly became exhausted. This time I was able to complete the full intervals at my usual pace.

    My workout and HR rate are summarized below. The %MHR refers to the average value within the interval. The values (+%) list the change from my preaccident MHR. My HR peaked at ~95%MHR when getting off the treadmill. It rose quickly during the final couple minutes of the 10mph interval, even though the overall average was much lower. My HR was higher than my preaccident levels throughout the workout, despite my excellent performance. This HR change may indicate cardiovascular fitness loss.
    • 3 minutes -- 4.0 mph (Warmup)
    • 7 minutes -- 7.5 mph -- 76%MHR (+6%)
    • 5 minutes -- 8.0 mph -- 80%MHR (+6%)
    • 5 minutes -- 8.5 mph -- 83%MHR (+6%)
    • 5 minutes -- 9.0 mph -- 86%MHR (+4%)
    • 5 minutes -- 9.5 mph -- 89%MHR (+3%)
    • 5 minutes -- 10.0 mph -- 91%MHR (+1%)
    • Hill Program 1 -- 39 second intervals -- 84-90%MHR (+4/3%)
    • Hill Program 2 -- 39 second intervals -- 82-93%MHR (+4/8%)

    Diet
    • ~3600 calories
    • Snack 1 – Oatmeal, 1 package broccoli, 1-2 oz snapper fillet, a few peanuts
    • Snack 2 - Oatmeal, 1-2 oz pollock fillet, a few peanuts
    • Snack 3 – Air-popped popcorn, 1-2 oz pollock fillet
    • Meal 1 - Large bowl Nature O’s cereal with skim milk, small serving snapper fillet
    • Snack 4 – Banana
    • Meal 2 – Large bowl black beans mixed with brown rice, sweet potato, small serving snapper fillet, plum, a few peanuts
    • Meal 3 - Large bowl oatmeal, canned tuna, brown rice, 1 package green beans, apple, a few peanuts
    • Meal 4 – Kashi Heart to Heart cereal with skim milk, 1 ear corn, 1 package peas, 1-2 oz pollock fillet, peach, small serving cantaloupe

    Supplements
    3g flax oil, 1g fish oil
    Last edited by aka23; 09-16-2003 at 04:49 AM.

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