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Thread: Questions regarding Fish Oil and Dieting:

  1. #1
    A Fortnight Dead
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    Questions regarding Fish Oil and Dieting:

    I've been cutting -- a minor, brief cut -- for about a week now; my goal is to lose between 2-3% BF (currenly around 10% BF).

    I'm running a small caloric deficit -- about 200-300 calories, I'd say -- with a roughly isocaloric macronutrient split. Except for fish oil, the entirety of my fat content comes from olive oil.

    My questions, therefore, are these:

    1) I've recently purchased fish oil capsules, the contents of which are as follows: Per one capsule, 180mg EPA; 120 mg DHA; 446 mg linolenic acid; 254 mg stearic, lauric, and palmitic acids. Ought I purchase a different brand; and must fish oil capsules be refrigerated before opening (mine were not)?

    2) Given that my diet is not extremely carbohydrate deficient, and that my caloric deficit isn't large, ought I still consider refeeding? And if so, when? Are the pertinent low-leptin symptoms hunger and a general lethargy? I know that fat should be kept as low as possible during a refeed -- barring EFAs, of course -- but I am a bit unsure as to what type of carbohydrates to eat and when. Anyone know of a good resource (perhaps by McDonald, etc...) for this? Thanks.

    If these questions seem redudant in the context of this forum, I apologize; I haven't been on much recently.

    EDIT: Just wanted to note that, yes, my training does reflect my current goals -- HIIT, etc... Were I to refeed, ought I do it on Friday/Saturday (Friday I do a LOT of HIIT; Saturday I train back/bi)?
    Last edited by _-_v_-_; 04-10-2003 at 11:08 AM.
    "human kind/
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  2. #2
    Sweet Babboo carolinagirl's Avatar
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    I'll just answer really quickly (I have to go to class) that Lyle and Par agree that leptin drops in response to all caloric deficits and refeeds should be incorporated into all cutting phases - not just for a CKD-type diet.

    Here's a link to an interesting thread (well, the guy that started it sounds kind of cretinous, but the answers and the discussion generated are interesting.) It's about whether the macronutrient makeup of the diet (specifically, sufficient carb intake) obviates the need for refeeds.

    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/avantfo...2729&hl=leptin

    Where the hell have you been, btw??
    Last edited by carolinagirl; 04-10-2003 at 02:42 PM.
    You can't babysit this.

  3. #3
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    While leptin levels are highly associated with body fat mass, the more important determinant is energy balance. Long-term usage of a diet that is calorically deficient will cause leptin levels to decrease. One way, and ultimately the easiest way, to prevent this is to incorporate refeed days. Depending on what the current body fat mass is, a person can integrate a day or two of higher than maintenance calories with ample carbohydrates. Insulin has a transient up-regulation effect on leptin levels. A day or two of refeeding will increase leptin levels and ‘reset’ the metabolism. As well, assuring adequate zinc and vitamin E have been shown to increase leptin levels in humans.

    The question has been asked: at what level of body fat does this switch take place? There is no single answer to that. Each individual probably has their own 'switch' level, depending on many factors such as age, gender, etc. A range may exist with a threshold for the average healthy population subsets, but this has not been investigated thoroughly. Plasma leptin concentrations have been presented, but not specific body fat levels. Perhaps the best method to determine when it is time to integrate reefed days is when the individual becomes chronically and extremely hungry. However, avoiding this point is optimal.

    So, the lower the bodyfat, the more often I would need to refeed. Right?

    That is correct. For a female in the 12-14% body fat range, a one or two-day reefed every 5 days; and for a male in the 8-12% body fat range, a two-day reefed every 4-5 days. Experimentation will be necessary to determine the correct frequency intervals, durations, and caloric intake.
    Found this, which was written by Elzi Volk:
    http://www.musclemonthly.com/article...-body-talk.htm

    This article from the Ministry of Fitness has some different foods listed and also some good info.

    http://www.theministryoffitness.com...s/article18.ht

    The fish oil caps need not be refrigerated, although I have seen where it is recommended to bite one of the caps and make sure the oil has not gone bad.

  4. #4
    Gen_chat worst nightmare
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    Re: Questions regarding Fish Oil and Dieting:

    Originally posted by _-_v_-_


    1) I've recently purchased fish oil capsules, the contents of which are as follows: Per one capsule, 180mg EPA; 120 mg DHA; 446 mg linolenic acid; 254 mg stearic, lauric, and palmitic acids. Ought I purchase a different brand; and must fish oil capsules be refrigerated before opening (mine were not)?



    I've never saw any fish oil caps refrigerated in stores, but what I do know is that if they're stored in plastic containers oxidation will take place, at least to some degree, as the plastics used are air permeable. Same is true for olive oil which should never be stored in plastic. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any info about at what rate this happens so I just stick to stuff that's bottled in glass, usually cod liver oil bottles.

    2) Given that my diet is not extremely carbohydrate deficient, and that my caloric deficit isn't large, ought I still consider refeeding? And if so, when? Are the pertinent low-leptin symptoms hunger and a general lethargy? I know that fat should be kept as low as possible during a refeed -- barring EFAs, of course -- but I am a bit unsure as to what type of carbohydrates to eat and when. Anyone know of a good resource (perhaps by McDonald, etc...) for this? Thanks.
    Think Muscle has some good articles on refeeds. And I concurr with what Carolinagirl said.

  5. #5
    Sweet Babboo carolinagirl's Avatar
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    I still don't have MUCH time, so here goes a quickie: leptin expression is triggered by glucose metabolism, (which is signaled by insulin, as Bradley mentioned) so people usually start off their refeeds with massive quantities of high-GI carbs, moderate protein, and as low fat as you can make happen.

    Most people eat children's cereals for the sugar content and the refined flours (remember, though, that sugar is half sucrose and half fructose, and you want to try not to exceed 55 g (I think that's right) of fructose - so don't go mad on the cereal.)Some really hardcore people drink shakes with some protein (not too much - maybe half a scoop?) and malto/dextrose.

    Then, depending on how long you're refeeding for (which depends on current bf%, how far you are below your setpoint, and how long you've been in deficit, along with multiple other factors) you start to taper onto lower and lower GI carbs. I'd avoid as much fat as possible until at least 2-3 hrs after the refeed ends, to allow the insulin to clear. (Par still takes fish oil during his refeeds though - something to do with more efficient incorporation of the EFA;s into the phospholipid membrane?? Something like that.)

    Quick and dirty - hope I didn't miss anything (or misstate anything! ) in my haste.
    You can't babysit this.

  6. #6
    A Fortnight Dead
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    CG, Rest, and Bradley -- Thanks for the responses.

    I've always had a fairly low setpoint -- and by that I mean that my natural BF% is quite low. I think that, if I am not at my set point now, I soon will be; I only hope to drop a bit below it What sort of physical symptoms might indicate it's Refeeding Time (TM)?

    As for where I've been...I apologize. To paraphrase a movie I can't stand (and a book that's even worse), this has been a very strange time in my life. I still owe you a PM, I know; I feel like an ass for not getting to it. Strike that: I am an ass for not getting to it.

    Anyway, thanks. Should I post my diet here as well for additional input?
    "human kind/
    Cannot bear very much reality/
    Time past and time future/
    What might have been and what has been / Point to one end, which is always present."

    -T.S. Eliot. "Four Quartets."

    "Redistribution [of wealth] is in effect far less a redistribution of free income from the richer to the poorer, as we [had] imagined, than a redistribution of power from the individual to the State."
    -Jouvenal

    Fear me, I am the bandersnatch.
    -Paul Stagg

  7. #7
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by _-_v_-_
    I've always had a fairly low setpoint -- and by that I mean that my natural BF% is quite low. I think that, if I am not at my set point now, I soon will be; I only hope to drop a bit below it What sort of physical symptoms might indicate it's Refeeding Time (TM)?
    Found this. Might be oversimplified but I think it sums it up pretty well. Hope this helps

    http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Wh...onr.com&rnum=3

  8. #8
    A Fortnight Dead
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    Thanks, all.

    I've done some reading, and I think, or rather I hope, that I have at least a loose grasp on some of the concepts.

    That said, would these be fair/accurate statements to make?

    1) The degree to which leptin levels drop when dieting is largely independent of the macronutrient breakdown of the diet: i.e., an isocaloric diet and, say, a 50c/30p/20f diet will precipitate similar drops in leptin levels.

    2) The degree to which leptin levels drop is also largely independent of the size of caloric deficit; i.e., a 500-calorie deficit and 1000-calorie deficit will precipitate similar drops in leptin levels.

    3) Refeeds ought only be used when glycogen leves are extremely low.

    The last two statements I consider tentative; I really am out of my experiential comfort levels here.

    THe reason I ask is that today I felt, well, as if I needed a refeed; but I was hesitant to do so because I thought my glycogen reserves were sufficiently high (my caloric deficit has likely only been about 300-400 calories per day, and I've been dieting for about a week.)

    Any input here would be much appreciated. Thanks.
    "human kind/
    Cannot bear very much reality/
    Time past and time future/
    What might have been and what has been / Point to one end, which is always present."

    -T.S. Eliot. "Four Quartets."

    "Redistribution [of wealth] is in effect far less a redistribution of free income from the richer to the poorer, as we [had] imagined, than a redistribution of power from the individual to the State."
    -Jouvenal

    Fear me, I am the bandersnatch.
    -Paul Stagg

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