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Thread: Doms

  1. #1
    God's Gift To Women Timastyle's Avatar
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    Doms

    I know a lot of you guys say that doms have no relation to getting bigger, but what I was wondering is what are doms a sign of?

    Also, I've heard a lot of you say that you had a good workout or if you're chest recovers in time, then add in another day. My question for this is, how do you judge if your body can take it? What's the deciding factor? I wouldn't think doms are.

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  2. #2
    Senior Member geoffgarcia's Avatar
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    what does DOMS stand for?
    I think I understand it to refer to soreness, is that all it is?

    anyway, I never get sore.... but I make good progress and lift with high intensity
    I can't imagine gaining muscle any faster than I do right now....

  3. #3
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    The question is what does DOMS indicate, and frankly I have no idea, I'll just bump this and hope someone will answer.
    Last edited by Xg74; 04-20-2003 at 12:47 PM.
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    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    DOMS is an indicator of being sore.
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    Originally posted by geoffgarcia
    what does DOMS stand for?
    I think I understand it to refer to soreness, is that all it is?

    anyway, I never get sore.... but I make good progress and lift with high intensity
    I can't imagine gaining muscle any faster than I do right now....
    DOMS stands for Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness. It is the "good" pain you feel in the days following some workouts. I don't think there is concensus amongst members of this board as to what it indicates. Personally, I know that the only 2 places I get it consistently are in my chest and legs...my chest being a very weak point, and my legs a strong point, so that proves absolutely nothing.

    Many people feel that you can eliminate, or at least lessen, the effect of DOMS by eating and sleeping more. This hypothesis would mean that DOMS is more an indicator of how well you manage your recovery time outside of the gym, moreso than the actual workout itself.

  6. #6
    WBB OG Silverback's Avatar
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    Alrighty, i got this article from the URB and credit goes to Rich Johnson for it, i suppose it tells us everything that is known about the mystery that is DOMS:

    A Brief Guide to D.O.M.S. By Richard Johnston

    At some time in or around the gym you've probably heard somebody exclaim "I've got D.O.M.S!" It sounds like a life threatening disease doesn't it? In reality it is relatively harmless and has at some time or another been experienced by majority of athletes and bodybuilders. So what is it? D.O.M.S. (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness) is that stiff, aching sensation that people get 1-2 days after training. People who are new to exercise or carry out an exercise programme which is more intense than they are used to, more often than not, suffer from DOMS. Some people, like myself who has been training for around 5 years at the time of writing, feel DOMS after every training session whilst others rarely feel it at all.

    So what does having DOMS mean? Well, the sensation usually arises between 12-48 hours after training and usually peaks at around 48-72 hours. DOMS can last up to a week in extreme cases. If your DOMS sensations lasts more than 7 days, you should visit a doctor. Whilst suffering DOMS you will see a temporary reduction in your lifting performance and possible a reduced range of movement. It is advisable not to train a muscle group that is still suffering DOMS from a previous workout. People may also see a slight swelling or inflammation of a muscle. There is no permanent damage associated with DOMS.

    The majority of bodybuilders that I know prefer to live with the sensation or DOMS but there are steps that can be taken to reduce the pain. The application of ice, light massage and ultrasound may reduce the discomfort of DOMS in some cases but will do little to aid muscle recovery. Ibuprofen and Aspirin may reduce the actual sensation of pain temporarily but again will not speed up muscle recovery. Personally, I enjoy the sensation of DOMS, and make no attempt to treat it.

    DOMS is thought, by many, to be caused by the microscopic tearing of muscle fibres which results from exercise when the load bearing capacity of a muscle has been exceeded. Others criticise this and believe that damage to the connective tissue attached to muscle is the cause of DOMS. The exact cause is unknown.

    What is known however, is that DOMS is particularly intense after performing eccentric or negative movements. Negative movements are "braking" movements such as lowering a weight or running down hill. DOMS can happen regardless of a persons fitness level. DOMS is not the result of a Lactic Acid build up. Lactic acid is, however, responsible for the burning sensation that is felt during actual exercise. This "pump" sensation is known as Acute Muscle Soreness (AMS) and will usually disappear within a couple of hours of finishing exercise. Neither DOMS or AMS are directly related to muscle growth.

    Can DOMS be prevented? At present, there is no sure fire way to prevent DOMS although steps can be taken to keep the sensation to a minimum. Light stretching and warmups may reduce DOMS. Maintaining a regular exercise programme will also reduce the DOMS though not necessarily in the case of bodybuilding where the muscles are frequently overloaded. It has been suggested that taking a dose of Vitamin C directly after training can significantly reduce the sensation. A study carried out around 40 years ago found that Vitamin C supplementation lessened the effects of DOMS. However, the conditions of the study are heavily criticised by some researchers. The search for a magic cure goes on

    Hope this helps

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  7. #7
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    The above article is the nearest explenation to wot DOMS is but there's no actual research to validate it. Truth be known no one knows wot exactly it is but that seems the only logical consensus between all the experts.

  8. #8
    zen idiot Scott S's Avatar
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    What I heard from a friend once, was: DOMS (he didn't call it that) indicates you've gotten the BEST workout; you work out hard enough to get the most growth, but not so hard that you seriously injure yourself on the spot.

    Any thoughts on this theory?

    - Scott

  9. #9
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    If you read the post two above yours you would see that what he says is false.
    "42"

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    "A study carried out around 40 years ago found that Vitamin C supplementation lessened the effects of DOMS."

    I also recently read a study about vitamin E doing the same thing.

  11. #11
    Banned Berserker's Avatar
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    You don't have to have DOMS to grow. Debateble if it is an indicator of a full workout. I do enjoy when I get it. My biceps are actuallysore right which is extremely rare for me. I've tried to blast my biceps and nothing.
    I usually have it in my legs, and my legs are progressing best for me right now.
    I don't think it is nescary, but I think its cool when it happens.

  12. #12
    zen idiot Scott S's Avatar
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    The impression I got from the article is that it isn't *bad* unless it lasts longer than a week or is really painful. Right?

    I don't mean to be annoying -- I did read the article. Whether or not DOMS is directly related to muscle growth, it's generally harmless as long as you rest the muscle group while you have it. That much is common sense.

    So, is it the general consensus that soreness isn't a very good indicator of an effective workout at all? (Don't flame me; I'm still a newbie... )

    - Scott

    P.S. Ah, just a couple minutes too late to catch Berserker's response...
    Last edited by Scott S; 04-20-2003 at 09:30 PM.

  13. #13
    Banned Berserker's Avatar
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    Correct it is not a good indicator of a good workout. But I do enjoy it when i get it.

  14. #14
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    If you want to avoid it you can do your workouts 2-4 days apart in stead of 6+. For lots of threads on DOMS debates search on Vince Basile.

  15. #15
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    To get rid of DOMS or lessen it dramatically, work the same muscle group again the next day but using less intensity as the previous workout that elicited the DOMS. Now if you don't get sore the next day then work it when you experience the soreness.

    I have no scientific explanation nor any references that substantiate my point, except gym results.

    Try it and see if it works.
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    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
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    Maki, what does working the muscle the next day do in terms of recovery? If it helps reduce soreness then I guess that's a bonus (unless you like DOMS which I kind of do), but if it's going to hinder recovery then there really wouldn't be much point. I know you said to work the muscle less intensely than in the initial workout, but there are varying degrees of "less intensity".

  17. #17
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Vido
    Maki, what does working the muscle the next day do in terms of recovery? If it helps reduce soreness then I guess that's a bonus (unless you like DOMS which I kind of do), but if it's going to hinder recovery then there really wouldn't be much point. I know you said to work the muscle less intensely than in the initial workout, but there are varying degrees of "less intensity".
    *** Recovery in what sense? Neural or metabolic? If it impedes upon the ability of the body to recover neurally then it would put a damper on your strength increases. So if strength is your primary concern then this may not be a suitable method.

    However, when it comes to hypertrophy, the main prerequisite to growth is microtrauma of the muscle fibres. Working the same muscle out twice in a row using a lighter load and even changing the rep range to a higher number is the key. Basically you do not want to duplicate the stimulis you created your previous workout. The trick is to use a load that is below your new level of adaptation you've created.

    This is purely theoretical btw.
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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  18. #18
    God's Gift To Women Timastyle's Avatar
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    so you guys told me what DOMS are. Thanks. So if could please, tell me how you guys indicate that you had a workout. How do you judge that?
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    Toughest Man in the World Bruise Brubaker's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Timastyle
    so you guys told me what DOMS are. Thanks. So if could please, tell me how you guys indicate that you had a workout. How do you judge that?
    I see it if I have progressed over my last workout, or I see it the next workout.

    If you are consistent, there's no way you won't know if you had a good workout.

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by Maki Riddington


    *** Recovery in what sense? Neural or metabolic? If it impedes upon the ability of the body to recover neurally then it would put a damper on your strength increases. So if strength is your primary concern then this may not be a suitable method.

    However, when it comes to hypertrophy, the main prerequisite to growth is microtrauma of the muscle fibres. Working the same muscle out twice in a row using a lighter load and even changing the rep range to a higher number is the key. Basically you do not want to duplicate the stimulis you created your previous workout. The trick is to use a load that is below your new level of adaptation you've created.

    This is purely theoretical btw.
    I was referring to hypertrophy as strength means extremely little to me. I understand that there must be microtrauma in order for growth to occur, but that happens in the gym. We all know that the growth happens outside of the gym with adequate nutrition and sleep. I'm just curious as to when your idea would be extended too far. I mean, if you can induce more microtrauma of the muscle fibres with a second workout in a row, why not do a third or a fourth? I figure the reason is that you won't have enough time outside of the gym for the other growth factors (eating, sleeping) to fully be utilized and those torn-up muscle fibres would never get a chance to repair. This was really my original question from my initial post...would you still be able to recover (hypertrophically speaking) fully/as quickly if you did that second workout?

  21. #21
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Who said you had to keep it up forever? Cycling of loads over periods of time is very effective.
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  22. #22
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    QUOTE]Originally posted by Vido


    I was referring to hypertrophy as strength means extremely little to me. I understand that there must be microtrauma in order for growth to occur, but that happens in the gym. We all know that the growth happens outside of the gym with adequate nutrition and sleep. I'm just curious as to when your idea would be extended too far. I mean, if you can induce more microtrauma of the muscle fibres with a second workout in a row, why not do a third or a fourth? I figure the reason is that you won't have enough time outside of the gym for the other growth factors (eating, sleeping) to fully be utilized and those torn-up muscle fibres would never get a chance to repair. This was really my original question from my initial post...would you still be able to recover (hypertrophically speaking) fully/as quickly if you did that second workout?
    [/QUOTE]

    *** I believe so. Keep in mind that the following workout will not in any way create an effect. This means that there will be very little microtrauma occuring, and if there is minimal microtrauma, how can it impact metabolic recovery? Think about athletes, many athletes use some form of active recovery to recouperate from their competition. This would be along the same lines as what an athlete does.

    Also, Powerman touched on an area that many people do not use. If you use this method specifically for one muscle group (a weak one) and cycle the exercise variables then it will also decrease the chances of getting in the way of your recouperation.
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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  23. #23
    God's Gift To Women Timastyle's Avatar
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    maki, how light of a workout are you talking about? rep range? do you change the exercises or the same?
    ANYTHING can happen on a TUESDAY!!!

  24. #24
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    I usually use "isolation" type movements. For example, for chest I would do the pec deck and cable crossovers.

    I do about 5-6 sets and use reps of 12-15 reps. Never going to failure. Hope this helps. Remember, this is what I do, this is not what you should do.
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  25. #25
    What ChrisH's Avatar
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    As I type, I have the worst DOMS i've ever had. I say worst, but probably best because I like DOMS. Even if its not an indicator of growth, at least I know what muscles im working. My quads are sore as hell, I rubbed deep heat on them this morning for the hell of it, seemed to have no effect. I remember a while ago someone posted a link to the HST forum with a thread about the most effective way of training. Part of most peoples replies included a 'deep tissue' massage. What does that mean exactly? I'm thinking of switching gyms and they have massage people there...
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