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Thread: Frank training article

  1. #1
    Wannabebig Member
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    Frank training article

    I've spent a few days reading Justin Frank's "Application of Physiology to Bodybuilding".(Meaning that I've read it over and over again all the while dissecting it like a fresh pound of Alaskan King Crab legs for that last bit of delicously sweet meat in the furthest depths of the claw. Mmmmm...crab legs.) As usual I have more questions afterwards than I did before reading. If you haven't read the article please take the time to do so. It can be found in the training archives. Please don't post a response until you've read and have a grasp on what is going on. I already have plenty of misinformation to sift through.

    Here goes...
    In my 7+ years of experience, 4 of which I will consider to be thoroughly dedicated, I've attempted a truck load of different rep/set/split schemes. What I've found to be most effective for me is a version of HIT that Degsta worked out for me to try. I modified it a bit for the end result, but as is always the case I'm looking for a better way to train. If you're curious here is the four-day split not counting warm-ups:
    Day 1 Chest/Bi's
    Bench 3*4-8
    Incline DB 2*6-10
    Machine flies 2*8-15
    Straight bar curls 2*6-10
    DB curls 1*8-12

    Day2 Legs/Traps
    Squat 2-3*4-8
    SLDL 1-2*6-10
    Leg Ext 1-2*8-15
    Abductor 1*8-15
    BB Shrugs 2-3*4-8
    DB Shrugs 1-2*8-15

    Day 4 Delts/Tris/Calves
    Mil Press 2*4-8
    Side Lateral 2*8-15
    Rear fly 2*8-15
    Rotator cuff 1*15
    Seated calf raise 2*8-15
    Standing raise 2*8-15
    Close grip bench 2*6-10 or Weighted dips 2*6-10
    Pushdown 1*8-15

    Day 5 Back/Legs
    Deadlift 2-3*4-8
    Pulldowns 3*4-10
    DB Row 2*6-10
    Pullovers 1*6-15
    Leg Curl 2*6-12
    Adductor 1*8-15

    As you can see I'm staying heavy with low reps on my compound movements and lighter on my "isolation" movements. Heavy sets are to failure. Iso approaches and reaches failure often. Which is consistent with the article. Here's my first question...
    How am I ranking on isolation movements, too many, too few?
    If too few what do you feel should be added and where?

    I know that squats are not deadlifts and deadlifts are not squats, but after incorporating deadlifts into my back routine about a year and a half ago I've noticed that my other back exercises are not progressing near as nicely. (I had no idea what a deadlift was before that time.) I am thoroughly fried after those first few sets and usually end up dragging through the remaining workout.
    Question two...
    Has anyone here rotated leg workouts week to week from squats to deadlifts? If so, what type of results had you?
    I wouldn't do SLDL on the same day as Deads i would probably substitute Hacks to push the quads a little more.
    This would also allow me to put BB rows back in the mix. Lower back couldn't take it after Deads. I'm thinking that would also leave me enough energy to do chins instead of pulldowns.

    What has kept me from trying this approach was the advice from a trainer at my gym who urged me to keep Squats, Deads, and Benching as the core of my week to week routine (again consistent with the article). I might have discredited his advice originally, but he is an accomplished lifter/bodybuilder. (5'9" 195lbs 8% Bench 360+, Squat 500+, Dead 525+. Competes natural. B.S. in Sports medicine. I think he has enough credentials, you?)

    For your own curiosity I feel that I have my diet under control. I'm able to gain weight when I want and lose it when I want. Usually slower than I want to, but nonetheless it happens. Currently I'm 6'2" about 220 at 11% (calipers). I'm down 10 lbs and 3% from two months ago. Yea, cutting.

    Thanx in advance for your input. It is alwayz appreciated.

  2. #2
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Simple to me. Drop the deads.

    Sounds too short a reply for such a long, thought out post... but I don't see what the deads are doing there, honestly. They're not ideal for upper back development, and as it stands you have enough work in your leg day. Cut out the adductor work, move the leg curls to there. Remove the deads. Think what they work.. hamstrings, erectors, hamstrings to some extent.. covered by your SLDLs.

    Everything else looks tight to me. I mean, other than back exercises, you're progressing, no? I love deads, it's almost an unhealthy obsession. But they're rather redundant. If you DO cycle them in... I'd say once a month. Whatever they do, squats and stiff leggeds can do better.

    I guess I have little to say because I really like the routine.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
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  3. #3
    Wannabebig Member
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    Belial,
    Thanx for your input. I understand what you're saying, but, like you, I'm a DL junkie. Its my happy-fun-try-to-kill-self exercise. What is your opinion on
    Back day
    BB Rows 3*4-10
    Chins 2-3*6-10
    DB Row 1-2*8-12
    Pullovers 1*8-12
    BB Shrug 2*8-12

    Shortening iso trap work to compensate for short period between Mil presses (day before) and back day. My thought here is that the traps are hit with mil presses and might be prone to overtraining if done back-to-back. No pun intended.

    Then for leg day alternating between
    Leg one
    Squat 3*4-8
    SLDL 2-3*6-10
    Leg Ext 2*8-15
    Adductor 1*15

    and Leg two
    Deads 3*4-18
    Hacks 2-3*6-10
    Leg Curls 1-2*8-15
    Abductor 1*15

    For me trying to do curls and SLDL during the same workout makes me want to cry. Its just too much for my hams. I'm not discrediting your info or trying to be confrontational just looking for more ideas.
    Last edited by Sackattack; 05-09-2003 at 05:23 PM.
    What caused you to do that?

  4. #4
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Day 1 Chest/Bi's
    Bench 3*4-8
    Incline DB 2*6-10
    Machine flies 2*8-15
    Straight bar curls 2*6-10
    DB curls 1*8-12

    ** looks good.

    Day2 Legs/Traps
    Squat 2-3*4-8
    SLDL 1-2*6-10
    Leg Ext 1-2*8-15
    Abductor 1*8-15
    BB Shrugs 2-3*4-8
    DB Shrugs 1-2*8-15

    ** I would drop the leg ext for a press or a lunge, and drop the abductor for another hamstring lift. No need to do 2 kinds of shrugs.

    Day 4 Delts/Tris/Calves
    Mil Press 2*4-8
    Side Lateral 2*8-15
    Rear fly 2*8-15
    Rotator cuff 1*15
    Seated calf raise 2*8-15
    Standing raise 2*8-15
    Close grip bench 2*6-10 or Weighted dips 2*6-10
    Pushdown 1*8-15

    ** Do the cuff stuff last.

    Day 5 Back/Legs
    Deadlift 2-3*4-8
    Pulldowns 3*4-10
    DB Row 2*6-10
    Pullovers 1*6-15
    Leg Curl 2*6-12
    Adductor 1*8-15

    ** Drop the curls and adductors. You might want to move shrugs here.

    How am I ranking on isolation movements, too many, too few?
    If too few what do you feel should be added and where?

    ** Looks OK to me.

    I know that squats are not deadlifts and deadlifts are not squats, but after incorporating deadlifts into my back routine about a year and a half ago I've noticed that my other back exercises are not progressing near as nicely. (I had no idea what a deadlift was before that time.) I am thoroughly fried after those first few sets and usually end up dragging through the remaining workout.
    Question two...
    Has anyone here rotated leg workouts week to week from squats to deadlifts?

    ** Not normally.

    If so, what type of results had you?
    I wouldn't do SLDL on the same day as Deads i would probably substitute Hacks to push the quads a little more.
    This would also allow me to put BB rows back in the mix. Lower back couldn't take it after Deads. I'm thinking that would also leave me enough energy to do chins instead of pulldowns.

    ** If it's an issue, I'll echo B's advice. Drop the deads. If you want to keep them in, I would either reduce the frequency of training them (every other week), or at a minimum drop the intensity a notch. Maybe train them lighter for more sets of few reps to maintain/improve your form, then once a month or so work up to a 1, 3, or 5 RM.

    What has kept me from trying this approach was the advice from a trainer at my gym who urged me to keep Squats, Deads, and Benching as the core of my week to week routine (again consistent with the article). I might have discredited his advice originally, but he is an accomplished lifter/bodybuilder. (5'9" 195lbs 8% Bench 360+, Squat 500+, Dead 525+. Competes natural. B.S. in Sports medicine. I think he has enough credentials, you?)

    ** Lots of credentials, and reasonable advice... but there is no reason to keep stuff in your routine that might be hindering your progress... especially if there is no compellin greason for keeping it otherwise. If you are a competitve Pler, I'd say keep te deads, and drop other stuff... but if that isn't your goal, then I'd drop or at a minimum change the deadlift training.



    For your own curiosity I feel that I have my diet under control. I'm able to gain weight when I want and lose it when I want. Usually slower than I want to, but nonetheless it happens. Currently I'm 6'2" about 220 at 11% (calipers). I'm down 10 lbs and 3% from two months ago. Yea, cutting.

    Thanx in advance for your input. It is alwayz appreciated.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  5. #5
    Wannabebig Member
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    Paul,
    I think that my second post mimics your suggestion, or I could have just completely missed you. Thoughts?

    Anybody else have anything at all? I'm getting desperate for feedback.
    What caused you to do that?

  6. #6
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    It's better than your original, but not as good as mine.

    The key here is that you make progress. Try what you have, and see. Most certainly, the WORST thing to happen will be that you don't make as much progress as you would otherwise. You'll soon learn that you'll spend a great deal of your lifting life doing that, anyway.

    I certainly have.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
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    I agree about the deads. I like deads and squats, and I like doing them heavily. My week A and week B routine are the same except A has deads on chest and back day, and leg extensions on legs day. On week B I drop deads on c/b day and do squats on legs day, and drop leg extensions. Perhaps you might want to do something similar?

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