The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Wannabebig Member BobbyRS's Avatar
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    Diet Guidelines and Tips

    This is a collection of info I have collected over the years. Some are more true then others and some can be completely wrong for some people. So, Feel free to add... Let me know what you think. I'm curious what others would say. Maybe this will spawn some good discussions.

    Things to Remember When Dieting:

    1. There aren't that many different ways to train a muscle, but there are many different alterations you can make to your diet to fine-tune your performance.
    2. The hardest part of a fat loss program is discipline.
    3. The hardest thing about loosing fat is patience.
    4. Just don't gain weight so you gain a number. Gain quality.
    5. Become more aware of what you put through your body, rather then only what you put your body through.
    6. Never attempt to gain or lose weight! Instead, you should always strive to gain muscle and lose fat!
    7. Building a sustainable diet and exercise plan is the key to maintaining a consistent weight.
    8. Controlling proportions is one of the most important aspects of dieting.
    9. How much you eat is important, but it is just as important to know what to eat and when to eat it. This is crucial to long-term success.

    Dieting for Losing Fat:

    1. A caloric level of 10-14 calories per pound is suggested as a starting place for fat loss.
    2. Eat 5-7 meals a day, approx. 3 hours apart, to help increase metabolism, control hunger, and prevent storage of excess calories as fat.
    3. Eat every 3 hours to keep a steadier flow of nutrients into the body.
    4. Have a protein source with each meal to help keep nitrogen levels high and minimize muscle breakdown.
    5. Eat 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight to help reduce muscle breakdown.
    6. Consume a low amount of carbs. 30-45% of total calories is a good place to start.
    7. Keep fat intake around 20-30%. Mostly from EFA's (like flax seed oil, cod liver oil, and olive oil).
    8. Never go below 15% of daily fat intake. You risk health deficiencies & causes fat hoarding.
    9. Eat a lot of fruits and vegetables as your carb sources (low GI and high in fiber).
    10. Eat fruits and vegetables first in your meal. They will help in lowering the GI on foods to follow.
    11. Keep the carbs as low as possible, around 5-15 grams of carbs per meal! Except fruits and Veg.
    12. The first 5-10 pounds of weight loss are going to be from water and carb storage.
    13. As you lose/gain weight, you metabolic rate changes. Adjust calorie increase/decrease accordingly.
    14. A good diet in reduction of weight loss is between .5-1 pound a week. Any more and the greater the weight loss is attributed to muscle loss instead of fat.
    15. After 20 pounds of weight loss, you will start to lose strength. That is why you should stay within 20 pounds of 10% bf.
    16. Severe calorie restriction, whether from reduced food intake or imposed by excessive exercise, lowers testosterone, which causes muscle loss.
    17. A decrease in calories by 15% does not lower T levels.
    18. When refeeding resumes and calorie intake equals calorie expenditure, T levels will rise back to normal.
    19. If you are engaging in chronic high volume endurance exercise, even extra calories won't help raise your T levels back to normal.
    20. Drink enough water. Multiply your weight by .55 or one ounce for every 2 pounds.
    21. Get at least 8 hours of sleep every night. Less than 8hrs. causes a surplus of insulin, which boosts body fat storage. Sleep is when you grow the most.

    Dieting for Muscle Gain:

    1. A caloric level of 16-19 calories per pound is suggested as a starting place for mass gains.
    2. Eat 6-7 meals a day to help increase metabolism & provide enough calories to support gains.
    3. Eat every 3 hours to keep a steadier flow of nutrients into the body.
    4. Have a protein source with each meal to help keep nitrogen levels high.
    5. Eat 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight for mass gains.
    6. For mass gains, 45-55% of total calories as carbs is a good place to start.
    7. Keep fat intake around 20-30%. Mostly from EFA's (like flax seed oil, cod liver oil, and olive oil).
    8. Do not bulk up more than 15 pounds. If you bulk up more than 15 pounds you will lose strength.
    9. Do not go above 14-15% body fat. Gain 10-15 pounds and then diet to the previous BF level.
    10. When overfed, in an attempt to induce weight gain, there tends to be a decrease in T levels, as upper body fat increases.
    11. Limit calorie intakes to less than 1000 calories above energy requirements.
    12. Drink enough water. Multiply your weight by .55 or one ounce for every 2 pounds.
    13. Get at least 8 hours of sleep every night. Less than 8hrs. causes a surplus of insulin, which boosts body fat storage. Sleep is when you grow the most.
    14. Don't eat less then 1hr. before a workout. Eating too close to a workout will direct blood to the gut for digestion, and cause insulin release. Both impeding performance.
    15. Alternate mass gain (accepting fat gains) with fat loss (trying to minimize muscle loss). This avoids the buildup of excessive body fat levels, while allowing one to gain mass.
    16. For weight gain 7-12 pounds a year is good. For arm gains an inch a year is good.

    Tips for Losing Fat:

    1. Don't eat the same thing every day, at the same time every day - Mix it up! You will probably have a few core staples of your diet, (chicken breasts, tuna, eggs etc) but don't get too routine in the type of food you eat! Use various different sauces and prepare the food differently! (Bake, barbecue, grill but not fry!)
    2. Treat yourself to a little snack/treat - If you get too strict with your diet/meals, you will psychologically go nuts! Every now and then, treat yourself to a small portion of something you normally wouldn't eat. (licorice, pretzels, nuts etc.) If you don't, you will eventually snap and binge on a large pizza and half a gallon of rocky road! (Not that you should have this in your house!) The key here is moderation and to make yourself feel like you are treating yourself to a reward.
    3. Experiment with foods - Do something different! Use different sources of protein, if you are sick of the same old thing. Mix different things/fruits/juices into a post workout shake! What do you have to lose?
    4. Measure progress regularly - if one or two weeks go by without any progress, something has to change. Try cutting back on carbohydrates and calories or increasing cardio.
    5. Try cycling caloric intake - staying on a calorie-restricted diet for too long can make your body adjust by dropping metabolism. Having a day of no calorie deficit or surplus may hold off unfavorable metabolic changes.
    6. Allow yourself one cheat day a week - so it's easier to stick with your diet. It's also best to have any cheat meals after working out when you can store most of your carbs as glycogen, not fat.
    7. Don't have late meals - try not to eat anything less than 2 hours before bed. If you do, make sure it's light, low fat, high in protein, and low carb.
    8. Avoid processed foods - processing removes most vitamins and fiber (raising GI) and tends to destroy essential fatty acids. (Stay away from anything in a box unless it's whole grain)
    9. Control Proportions - Believe it or not cooking the meal is not the most important thing, it is what you put on your plate. I believe in portion control. As long as you control the proportions you don't have to limit yourself to many tasteless diet foods. You can still enjoy what you like to eat - to a limit.
    10. Slow down your eating - You eat so fast that your stomach hardly has time to tell your brain that it is full. Eat slower! Eating slowly will help prolong the enjoyment and probably will reduce the amount of food actually eaten. Try these few tips: Drink a glass or two before a meal. This will help curve your starvation and make you feel fuller quicker. On every bite, chew, swallow, put down your fork, and take a sip of water. Also, try having a conversation to help slow you down.
    11. Eat enough fiber - Not enough fiber in your diet? Fiber rich foods help control blood glucose and insulin levels. Therefore, making you feel fuller longer.
    12. Eat lots of fruit and veggies - fruit may contain fructose, but though it is simple in structure, it has the least effect on blood sugar out of all foods! Veggies are high in fiber, which also lowers GI. Some exceptions: bananas, carrots, and most dried fruit.
    13. Don't boil your veggies - fiber lowers GI, but there are soluble fibers that are lost when boiled in water (and poured off), so steam your veggies, or eat them raw.
    14. Stick with whole grain foods - when selecting bread, make sure white flower is not the first ingredient! Eat oatmeal instead of flaky cereals, and get protein fortified or whole-wheat pasta.
    15. Eliminate juice/pop calories - Substitute pop and juice with water or diet drinks with virtually no calories, milk is fine, but not between meals. Anything with caffeine in it doesn't count because the caffeine will act as a diuretic. As well, alcohol tends to further dehydrate you so beer after a workout isn't a good way to increase your fluid intake.
    16. Start meals with salads/fruit/veggies - eating low GI/high fiber foods before a meal lowers overall GI, so eat your salad first, or start your meal with an apple.
    17. Taper your meals through the day - make your biggest meals in the morning, and taper them off as the day goes on.
    18. Understand the Glycemic Index - it is a measure of how much blood sugar is elevated in response to eating food. Lower the GI, the better. High blood sugar leads to high insulin levels, which leads to fat storage and less satiety.
    Last edited by BobbyRS; 05-14-2003 at 12:14 PM.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member GhettoSmurf's Avatar
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    Re: Diet Guidlines and Tips

    Diet for Losing Fat:
    9. Eat a lot of fruits and vegetables as your carb sources (low GI and high in fiber).
    10. Eat fruits and vegetables first in your meal. They will help in lowering the GI on foods to follow.
    i strongly disagree with the fruits. I try to limit my amount of fruit, as it contains quite a lot of sugar. also, for m first meal i think complex carbs like oatmeal would be MUCH better.

    Dieting for Muscle Gain:

    8. Do not bulk up more than 15 pounds. If you bulk up more than 15 pounds you will lose strength.
    16. For weight gain 7-12 pounds a year is good. For arm gains an inch a year is good.
    you lose strength? i'd love to see some support for that...

    7 pounds in a year? thats less then 1 pound a month. that sounds a little sllllllllllllllloooooooowwwwwww IMO
    "Eat until it hurts dammit! Then eat more. Youll get used to it. I think its like sex for a chick. Sure it hurts the first time, but after a couple rides it just goes in like a glove." -clvmike19

    "... chicks are like smarties. They're different colors but each share the same deliciousness. Its just a matter of deciding if you'll save the red ones for last or eat a bunch of different ones in the same handful." -wibble

  4. #3
    Wannabebig Member BobbyRS's Avatar
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    i strongly disagree with the fruits. I try to limit my amount of fruit, as it contains quite a lot of sugar.
    I like the fruits and veggies because they tend to be high in fiber, something many people lack when deiting for fat loss. The high fiber tends to make you feel fuller longer then foods lacking it. Fruits and Veggies also contain higher amounts of carotenoids, a powerful amino acid antioxidant.

    also, for m first meal i think complex carbs like oatmeal would be MUCH better
    Number 10 wasn't referring to your first meal of the day, but eating the fruits and veggies first in you meal.

    you lose strength? i'd love to see some support for that...
    Yeah, I don't have any support to show that. It was just an amount most members of an old board I used to post on seemed to agree on the most. My guess is that it would really depend on what your bf% is at the time and what you are adding as your fat/muscle ratio.
    Last edited by BobbyRS; 05-13-2003 at 12:07 PM.

  5. #4
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    6. Consume a low amount of carbs. 30-45% of total calories is a good place to start.
    Why is this? Macronutrient ratios really don't mean anything as long as you are consuming adequate protein and EFA's.

    10. Eat fruits and vegetables first in your meal. They will help in lowering the GI on foods to follow.
    I agree that the higher fiber contained in most fruits and veggies will slow down digestion and lower the overall GI of the meal, but if I eat a something higher on the GI like a piece of white bread and then some peanuts, I doubt the overall GI of the meal is going to much different than if I ate the peanuts first. Your stomach is going to churn everything together anyway.


    14. A good diet in reduction of weight loss is between .5-1 pound a week. Any more and the greater the weight loss is attributed to muscle loss instead of fat.
    Just because you lose more than 1 pound a week doesn't mean that anything over the 1 pound is automatically attributed to LBM losses. Although I agree that a 1 pound per week loss is a good number to shoot for.

    15. After 20 pounds of weight loss, you will start to lose strength. That is why you should stay within 20 pounds of 10% bf.
    Do you have anything supporting this? I would imagine there have been plenty of individuals who have lost 20 lbs. and maintained or either gained strength. You have to take into consideration where they started dieting down from. Seems like a very generalized statement.

    21. Get at least 8 hours of sleep every night. Less than 8hrs. causes a surplus of insulin, which boosts body fat storage. Sleep is when you grow the most
    Never heard of this. So if I don't get enough sleep insulin magically appears? Do you have any proof of this?

    6. For mass gains, 45-55% of total calories as carbs is a good place to start.
    Again macronutrient ratios are not really that important.

    8. Do not bulk up more than 15 pounds. If you bulk up more than 15 pounds you will lose strength.
    Oh really??

    14. Don't eat less then 1hr. before a workout. Eating too close to a workout will direct blood to the gut for digestion, and cause insulin release. Both impeding performance.
    What would be wrong with eating a small meal that is easily digested?? For example whey and some maltodextrin? You could even drink it while working out if you wanted.

    16. For weight gain 7-12 pounds a year is good. For arm gains an inch a year is good.
    I guess this depends on who you are asking.

    7. Don't have late meals - try not to eat anything less than 2 hours before bed. If you do, make sure it's light, low fat, high in protein, and low carb.
    If you are in a caloric deficit at the end of the day then it won't really matter when you eat and for that matter what you eat. Something that contains a slow digesting protein along with some fat would be ideal IMO.

    17. Taper your meals through the day - make your biggest meals in the morning, and taper them off as the day goes on.
    I think centering meals around training would be more important.

    18. Understand the Glycemic Index - it is a measure of how much blood sugar is elevated in response to eating food. Lower the GI, the better. High blood sugar leads to high insulin levels, which leads to fat storage and less satiety
    The overall GI of the meal is probably more important, seeing as how you are rarely eating just one type of food.

    Seems like this list does have some good information but also a lot of generalized statements without anything backing up the information.

  6. #5
    Don't hate tha playah
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    I know they say variety is the spice of life but what benefits would altering your food every day provide? And what esle can you eat for breakfast that is good carb source other than oatmeal?
    got beef?

    height - 5'10"
    weight - 207lbs
    goal - 190lbs
    arms - approx 17"
    chest - approx 45"
    waist - approx 35"
    quads - approx 25"
    calves - approx 17"

  7. #6
    Wannabebig Member BobbyRS's Avatar
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    Why is this? Macronutrient ratios really don't mean anything as long as you are consuming adequate protein and EFA's.
    I agree. Although I do sometimes figure out what the breakdown is of what I am currently eating. Even though the % would vary way too much for someone to just plug into their diet. Which I guess is your point I personally keep track of mine, but of course it is all based upon getting 1g of pro/lbs. and my EFA's first.

    I agree that the higher fiber contained in most fruits and veggies will slow down digestion and lower the overall GI of the meal, but if I eat a something higher on the GI like a piece of white bread and then some peanuts, I doubt the overall GI of the meal is going to much different than if I ate the peanuts first. Your stomach is going to churn everything together anyway.
    I can't remember where I heard it first, but I do remember reading about it here:
    http://www.muscle101.com/tips.html
    18. on the list

    My guess is to why it might be beneficial to eat the low GI/high fiber foods first might make you get fuller quicker and not allowing yourself to eat some potentially harmful foods later in the meal. Plus, I guess it makes sure you get your fiber before you get full...

    Just because you lose more than 1 pound a week doesn't mean that anything over the 1 pound is automatically attributed to LBM losses. Although I agree that a 1 pound per week loss is a good number to shoot for.
    Yes, I agree. On average, it is more realistic, but can vary.

    Do you have anything supporting this? I would imagine there have been plenty of individuals who have lost 20 lbs. and maintained or either gained strength. You have to take into consideration where they started dieting down from. Seems like a very generalized statement.
    Yeah, I would have to reply in the same way I did to GettoSmurf above with number 8 he questioned. It is a much generalized statement.

    Never heard of this. So if I don't get enough sleep insulin magically appears? Do you have any proof of this?
    You know.... that is one I have had for a long time and I can't remember where I heard it from. I will have to do some digging to find out.

    What would be wrong with eating a small meal that is easily digested?? For example whey and some maltodextrin? You could even drink it while working out if you wanted.
    Although I can't say I have followed this every time I work out for sometimes my schedule doesn't allow me to always wait at least an hour before I begin training. I do notice that I am able to focus a little better and not have any feeling at all of being bloated or full if I do wait around .5-1 hour before training. Even as far as the feeling of liquid moving around in my stomach, which I can't stand when training.

    "Even during intense exercise, the body utilizes liver glycogen to maintain blood glucose, so if muscles could use it, it would always be there.

    Muscles, as far as I know, rely primarily on glycogen stored within the cells, not blood glucose.

    Consuming carbohydrates, even in liquid form, would cause blood to be redirected to the gut (and away from muscle) for digestion/absorption.

    Elevated blood glucose levels cause by carb ingestion result in insulin release, which may be anabolic, but might interfere with breakdown of glycogen and fat for energy."


    http://www.muscle101.com/kitchen.html#post

    If you are in a caloric deficit at the end of the day then it won't really matter when you eat and for that matter what you eat. Something that contains a slow digesting protein along with some fat would be ideal IMO.
    Yeah, i completely agree with you on this. It shouldn't say "Don't have late meals". If it is the right combination of nutrients then....

    I think centering meals around training would be more important.
    Again I agree. I guess this statement would be more towards individuals that do not train or exercise.

    Seems like this list does have some good information but also a lot of generalized statements without anything backing up the information.
    Like I said from the beginning of the post....

    Thanks for the reply bradley. You are on of the posters I follow on a regular basis.
    Last edited by BobbyRS; 05-13-2003 at 03:03 PM.

  8. #7
    Wannabebig Member BobbyRS's Avatar
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    I know they say variety is the spice of life but what benefits would altering your food every day provide? And what esle can you eat for breakfast that is good carb source other than oatmeal?
    My guess is that to make sure you keep some time of variety in your diet to where you don't become board with what you eat. Although, I like to eat much of the same foods everyday for I am the type of person that needs a strict program and schedule. I need that structure to feel better and eating much of the same foods helps. I would say my late meals (including dinner) are where I get most of my daily variety. Breakfast until then, it is basically the same foods. Don't get me wrong, I do change those foods, but it is seldom. I usually eat them for 2-3 months before I change something. Usually when I change from a cut cycle to a bulk cycle.

    As for breakfast... I like some cereals, fruit, shake.... anything that is high in fiber and low GI, as well as getting my protein in a shake.

  9. #8
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by b33fc4ke
    I know they say variety is the spice of life but what benefits would altering your food every day provide? And what esle can you eat for breakfast that is good carb source other than oatmeal?
    Well adding variety to your diet would help to ensure that you are getting all of the vitamins and minerals in your diet. As you probably know most foods have more than others as far as vitamin and mineral content goes.

    You could always go with a whole grain cereal like Kashi, shredded wheat, fiber one, etc. As BobbyRS mentioned fruit would be another good low GI carb for breakfast. Cream of wheat might be another alternative.

  10. #9
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    I can't remember where I heard it first, but I do remember reading about it here:
    http://www.muscle101.com/tips.html
    18. on the list

    My guess is to why it might be beneficial to eat the low GI/high fiber foods first might make you get fuller quicker and not allowing yourself to eat some potentially harmful foods later in the meal. Plus, I guess it makes sure you get your fiber before you get full...
    Well for one thing whatever you eat is going to be churned up by the stomach so I really can't see as to what difference it would make if you eat the higher GI foods first. It could make a difference if you were waiting long periods of time between eating the high GI food and the low GI food. For the average person I really don't think it is going to matter.

    Another point is that your body takes time to realize what you are eating. Just dropping some high fiber food in your stomach does not automatically make you feel full 5 minutes later. Granted high fiber veggies contain a good amount of bulk which could make you feel full but this is due to the amount of food in your stomach and not the fiber content of the vegetables.

    Although I can't say I have followed this every time I work out for sometimes my schedule doesn't allow me to always wait at least an hour before I begin training. I do notice that I am able to focus a little better and not have any feeling at all of being bloated or full if I do wait around .5-1 hour before training. Even as far as the feeling of liquid moving around in my stomach, which I can't stand when training.

    "Even during intense exercise, the body utilizes liver glycogen to maintain blood glucose, so if muscles could use it, it would always be there.

    Muscles, as far as I know, rely primarily on glycogen stored within the cells, not blood glucose.

    Consuming carbohydrates, even in liquid form, would cause blood to be redirected to the gut (and away from muscle) for digestion/absorption.

    Elevated blood glucose levels cause by carb ingestion result in insulin release, which may be anabolic, but might interfere with breakdown of glycogen and fat for energy."
    Well I agree that you shouldn't eat a large whole food meal before training. Here is an old thread that brings up some good points about having a meal about 45-60 minutes prior to training.

    http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...I&pagenumber=1

    Yeah, i completely agree with you on this. It shouldn't say "Don't have late meals". If it is the right combination of nutrients then....
    From a weight loss perspective the contents of the meal wouldn't really matter either.

  11. #10
    the stone cold stunner Ironman8's Avatar
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    Re: Diet Guidelines and Tips

    Originally posted by BobbyRS

    18. Understand the Glycemic Index - it is a measure of how much blood sugar is elevated in response to eating food. Lower the GI, the better. High blood sugar leads to high insulin levels, which leads to fat storage and less satiety.
    Speaking of the Glycemic index, here is a site that tells which foods are high, medium, or low GI

    Glycemic index
    You kill me in a dream, you better wake up and apologize....

  12. #11
    Wannabebig Member BobbyRS's Avatar
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    Granted high fiber veggies contain a good amount of bulk which could make you feel full but this is due to the amount of food in your stomach and not the fiber content of the vegetables.
    Great Point!

    From a weight loss perspective the contents of the meal wouldn't really matter either.
    Your right. From an overall weight loss perspective it wouldn't, but from a fat loss or muscle gaining/preserving perspective, too me it matters greatly. This changes for me if I am bulking or cutting. Depending on what my caloric intake and macronutrient breakdown is for the day, the nutrient content is very important to me.

  13. #12
    Wannabebig Member BobbyRS's Avatar
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    Speaking of the Glycemic index, here is a site that tells which foods are high, medium, or low GI
    Good link. Here are a few I use:

    http://www.2-fit.com/miscellaneous/glycemic.html
    http://www.lowglycemicdiet.com/gifoodlist.html

    Here are a couple of great downloads:

    http://members.lycos.co.uk/ramendosa...GI_GL_data.xls
    http://members.lycos.co.uk/ramendosa/glycemic_list.pdf

  14. #13
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Depending on what my caloric intake and macronutrient breakdown is for the day, the nutrient content is very important to me.
    I think this is the key statement. If you have already got enough protein and fat for the day then the contents of the meal would not matter that much. Although I agree that a slow digesting protein and some fat is probably ideal for most people trying to maximize/maintain LBM.

  15. #14
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by BobbyRS
    You know.... that is one I have had for a long time and I can't remember where I heard it from. I will have to do some digging to find out.
    I am still interested if you found anything out about the statement you made about lack of sleep causing insulin release.

    13. Get at least 8 hours of sleep every night. Less than 8hrs. causes a surplus of insulin, which boosts body fat storage. Sleep is when you grow the most.

  16. #15
    Wannabebig Member BobbyRS's Avatar
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    I think this is the key statement. If you have already got enough protein and fat for the day then the contents of the meal would not matter that much. Although I agree that a slow digesting protein and some fat is probably ideal for most people trying to maximize/maintain LBM.
    That is what i was basically shooting for

    I am still interested if you found anything out about the statement you made about lack of sleep causing insulin release.
    Yeah, me too. I have been looking for it all morning. I'll let you know if I do....

  17. #16
    Journalist galileo's Avatar
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    It's called FLAX not FLACK.

  18. #17
    Wannabebig Member BobbyRS's Avatar
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    It's called FLAX not FLACK.
    Sorry, i changed it.

  19. #18
    Journalist galileo's Avatar
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    Don't roll your eyes at me, douche.

    I'm still waiting on the magic insulin surplus study.

  20. #19
    Wannabebig Member BobbyRS's Avatar
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    Don't roll your eyes at me, douche.

    I'm still waiting on the magic insulin surplus study.
    Douche? Man, I haven't heard anyone be called that in a while.

    I can't seem to find the link to where I got that from. I will keep my eye open for it though. I never said it was a study or that it was correct.

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  22. #21
    Wannabebig Member BobbyRS's Avatar
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    What sucks is that I am pretty sure I read that over at Fig's old site here: http://members.surfsouth.com/~figarola/index.html , but he took it down at the beginning of the year. I am trying to read through some of my stuff I may have copied and pasted to see, not like that will help matters though. But at least I will be able to remember where I got it from...

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