The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    zen idiot Scott S's Avatar
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    Adding flyes to workout -- advice?

    My chest workout, as it stands, goes like this:

    Flat BB (or DB) Bench (2 x 3-6)
    Low Incline DB Press (2 x 3-6)
    Dips (2 x 3-6)


    I got the idea from a Casey Viator article to do flyes before the bench to pre-exhaust my pecs. Should I take anything out of this workout, or just add the flyes?

    Thanks,
    - Scott

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  3. #2
    Wannabebig Member
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    I personally add the flyes. I always do things in different order. Say this week start with the bench, next week start with incline, week after start with flyes. This will keep your muscles shocked.

  4. #3
    Define Your Soul SoulOfKoRea's Avatar
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    increasing weight will do just as much to "shock" your muscles, if not better.
    I'd say add the flyes after the chest routine, same amount of sets and reps as others
    My profile picture is about 5 years old, I'll get around to taking some progress pics eventually.

  5. #4
    Senior Member volcamp's Avatar
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    Well, now you've got to decide if it's gonna be flat flyes, incline flyes, etc.

  6. #5
    zen idiot Scott S's Avatar
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    They would be regular flat flyes. The thinking was that when benching, it's the stabilizers (like triceps) that give first, so the pecs may not get fully worked.

    Here's a link to that article:
    http://davedraper.com/arthur-jones-a...y-wedan-2.html

    It's in the fourth paragraph under "Getting Down to It"

    - Scott

  7. #6
    A Fortnight Dead
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    If I hear one more person say "shock your muscles," I'm going to do a little "muscle-shocking" of my own.

    With a crowbar.
    "human kind/
    Cannot bear very much reality/
    Time past and time future/
    What might have been and what has been / Point to one end, which is always present."

    -T.S. Eliot. "Four Quartets."

    "Redistribution [of wealth] is in effect far less a redistribution of free income from the richer to the poorer, as we [had] imagined, than a redistribution of power from the individual to the State."
    -Jouvenal

    Fear me, I am the bandersnatch.
    -Paul Stagg

  8. #7
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    HIYOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  9. #8
    A Fortnight Dead
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    *Wails on guitar*
    "human kind/
    Cannot bear very much reality/
    Time past and time future/
    What might have been and what has been / Point to one end, which is always present."

    -T.S. Eliot. "Four Quartets."

    "Redistribution [of wealth] is in effect far less a redistribution of free income from the richer to the poorer, as we [had] imagined, than a redistribution of power from the individual to the State."
    -Jouvenal

    Fear me, I am the bandersnatch.
    -Paul Stagg

  10. #9
    Back at it
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    Re: Adding flyes to workout -- advice?

    Originally posted by Scott S
    My chest workout, as it stands, goes like this:

    Flat BB (or DB) Bench (2 x 3-6)
    Low Incline DB Press (2 x 3-6)
    Dips (2 x 3-6)


    I got the idea from a Casey Viator article to do flyes before the bench to pre-exhaust my pecs. Should I take anything out of this workout, or just add the flyes?

    Thanks,
    - Scott
    I'd get away from the mentality of 'pre-exhausting' any muscle group. For each exercise you should be putting forth 100% and in my opinion, you should try to do compound movements FIRST... not exhaust the msucles and then do the compound movement.

    Flys are a great exercise. I'd actually do the same routine that you listed and just slap the flys in at the end. If you do that youre chest day routine will look very similar to mine, only I do 3 sets of flat, 3 incline, 2 dips, and 2 flys.

  11. #10
    Skinny Fat John0101's Avatar
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    I dunno but my muscles respond w/ more volume with that. It looks like you got the intensity, but I would maybe a set or two of 6-8 rep flat bb bench, or a few sets more of 3-6 reps. I like to do a few more sets then that for the chest, or i feel like it didnt work it at all. This is just me, and i think that ive seen modest gains in my bench. Also i think that more tricep work seems to impove bench then flys. All this comes from my 6 months of weight liftin experience if that means anything...
    Life isn't like Burger King, you can't always have it your way.


  12. #11
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    Re: Re: Adding flyes to workout -- advice?

    Originally posted by GIS


    I'd get away from the mentality of 'pre-exhausting' any muscle group. For each exercise you should be putting forth 100% and in my opinion, you should try to do compound movements FIRST... not exhaust the msucles and then do the compound movement.
    Wait, why is that? The idea of pre-exhausting is that the pecs would give out first. What's wrong with that?

  13. #12
    Tir na nOc Pursuer Borgod Maxximus's Avatar
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    give out?

    You're working the pecs whether they're exhausted or not so whats the difference.
    With pre-exhausting you're making yourself lift less weight so how can that be good?

    Keep the intensity to maximum and you shouldnt have to pre-exhaust.

    I warm up with 2 sets, but I never pre-exhaust.

    Incidentally, Incline flys rock... just gotta be careful with my elbows.
    "In the pool of dreams, the water darkens for the soul thats tired of search"

    Varg Vikernes

  14. #13
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    Yeah, lifting lighter weights should be ok if you're working out, not working your ego. Usually, with most people, their tris are exhausted before the pecs when benching, so pre-exhaustion gives your pecs an extra punch. I like it a lot, but it does feel horrible, hah!
    "And if that doesnt work, bend her over, tear off the stretchpants, and go wild on the little slut. When you're done, drop her like a missed rep. When she's regained her senses, complain that she was making too much noise. She will then realize the error of her ways, and give you her number." - Budiak

    "I have a girl that i have ride around with me everywhere, just cuz she's a ditz and amuses me. its great." - Ace Dogg

  15. #14
    Tir na nOc Pursuer Borgod Maxximus's Avatar
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    Working my ego?
    I lift alone so my ego is negligible.

    You keep lifting 'light weights' and see how you are in 6 months and get back to me.
    When you get back, tell me more about the 'extra punch'
    "In the pool of dreams, the water darkens for the soul thats tired of search"

    Varg Vikernes

  16. #15
    Grand Kaiser of h8 RG570's Avatar
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    well.....how about them apples
    Pup, in reference to me: "he's like Budiak...but worse"

    Budiak: "Statistically I've gained almost an inch on my arms...but thats just theory, and we know what theory gets us. Thats right. Communism."

    BigChaseyChase: "Cutting, there will not be!"

    sir millard mulch: "I could probably punch some chick really hard at this point"

    Galileo - "Someday maybe I'll be able to use the big boy weights like RG570."

  17. #16
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    Borgod, first of all, lighten up. So you think bench is "an isolation excersice for pecs"? My point is, that by pre-exhausting your pecs - although you will have to use less weight when benching after the fly movement - you should be able to exhaust your PECS more thoroughly, because the fly movement does not exhaust your delts and tris; thus they are FRESH when you start benching. You get it now?

    And if you want "an example" of someone who a lot of times used RELATIVELY little weight and strict form look at this dude called Dorian Yates.
    "And if that doesnt work, bend her over, tear off the stretchpants, and go wild on the little slut. When you're done, drop her like a missed rep. When she's regained her senses, complain that she was making too much noise. She will then realize the error of her ways, and give you her number." - Budiak

    "I have a girl that i have ride around with me everywhere, just cuz she's a ditz and amuses me. its great." - Ace Dogg

  18. #17
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
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    Originally posted by ask
    And if you want "an example" of someone who a lot of times used RELATIVELY little weight and strict form look at this dude called Dorian Yates.

    Who also used a truckload of steroids and who had much better genetics than 99% of all people, including the ones on this board.


    Helpful hint: Do NOT use pro bodybuilders to make points like the above. That is truly comparing apples to oranges.

  19. #18
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    Try cable flyes on a bench either incline or flat. They keep more tension on the pecs throughout the range of motion compared to dumbells, especially at the top.
    Just one guy's opinion.

  20. #19
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    Originally posted by ExtremeAnabolic



    Who also used a truckload of steroids and who had much better genetics than 99% of all people, including the ones on this board.


    Helpful hint: Do NOT use pro bodybuilders to make points like the above. That is truly comparing apples to oranges.
    Oh, and how is all of the above relevant to the on-going discussion? Would you like to point out where exactly did I make a comparison of sorts? No? I thought so, 'cos I did not compare myself or anyone else to any pro. Reading it twice next time.

    My point is, that people are close-minded when it comes to hypertrophy training. The general attitude at any community, at any board, is that more weight on the bar and more sets - to hell with technique - automatically leads to more gains, HUGE muscles. That's all degenerated bull****. Why don't you have a comment on the piece I wrote for Borgod?

  21. #20
    Journalist galileo's Avatar
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    There's where you did it. See? Right there! You used a pro as an example to back up a point!

    <high fives himself>

    Originally posted by ask
    And if you want "an example" of someone who a lot of times used RELATIVELY little weight and strict form look at this dude called Dorian Yates.

  22. #21
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ask
    Borgod, first of all, lighten up. So you think bench is "an isolation excersice for pecs"? My point is, that by pre-exhausting your pecs - although you will have to use less weight when benching after the fly movement - you should be able to exhaust your PECS more thoroughly, because the fly movement does not exhaust your delts and tris; thus they are FRESH when you start benching. You get it now?
    Why do you want to pre-exhaust the muscle group you are working? Why not pre-exhaust the other muscles so that when you do start working on the chest, that's the only thing that is able to work and so in effect you are actually "isolating" the chest more?

    Because you have pre-exhausted your chest, your delts and tri's will be doing more work and your chest will actually be doing less work. Thus leading to worse form and possible injury because the muscles you should be working are already depleted and the stabilizers are trying to do too much. Never quite made sense to me.

    Why just not do the major compound lifts and grow everything?
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  23. #22
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ask
    Borgod, first of all, lighten up. So you think bench is "an isolation excersice for pecs"? My point is, that by pre-exhausting your pecs - although you will have to use less weight when benching after the fly movement - you should be able to exhaust your PECS more thoroughly, because the fly movement does not exhaust your delts and tris; thus they are FRESH when you start benching. You get it now?

    Read this statement: "although you will have to use less weight when benching after the fly movement"

    Then you go on to say that you "should be able to exhaust your PECS more thoroughly." Why would that be the case? By intentionally "exhausting" them (with a load that's not optimal for growth, btw), you're only hurting your bench press poundages.

    Why not simply use your strongest bench press weight THEN follow up with a few sets of flyes? There's no reason to short-change any exercise.

    Personally, its been my experience that the total load is a *much* more critical factor for growth than paying attention to absolutely flawless form.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  24. #23
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PowerManDL
    Personally, its been my experience that the total load is a *much* more critical factor for growth than paying attention to absolutely flawless form.
    I whole heartedly agree. Judging from my own personal experience as well as others in the gym I've helped. That's why I'm such a big advocate for heavy weight first.
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  25. #24
    zen idiot Scott S's Avatar
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    Hmm.. some good points in there.

    I think I'll try it both ways. I can see this wisdom of doing the flyes after bench -- that way, I'm making sure my pecs get as worked-out as possible ("shocked", so to speak ), without hampering the flat bench workout.

    Thanks again!

  26. #25
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
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    Originally posted by ask


    Oh, and how is all of the above relevant to the on-going discussion? Would you like to point out where exactly did I make a comparison of sorts? No? I thought so, 'cos I did not compare myself or anyone else to any pro. Reading it twice next time.

    My point is, that people are close-minded when it comes to hypertrophy training. The general attitude at any community, at any board, is that more weight on the bar and more sets - to hell with technique - automatically leads to more gains, HUGE muscles. That's all degenerated bull****. Why don't you have a comment on the piece I wrote for Borgod?

    Powerman and HY already commented on that piece. As for where you made a comparision of sort, Galileo already noticed that one. I however do agree with you on one point.
    Try reading it twice next time.

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