Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 130

Thread: Iraq war - the real reason, the right reason, the moral reason, and the stated reason

  1. #26
    MACHINE
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    on the short bus
    Posts
    0
    Originally posted by Reinier


    I`m not biased. I`m cynical and realist. and I know that people do whatever serves them best. Many of the things I sayd in threads prior to and during the war which nobody believed then have come true.
    Being cynical in only one direction is bias. Everyone has said something that has come true - I know plenty of what I predicted is happening right now, and will continue to. I am a critical and cynical person who doesn't discredit or credit anything pro-war or anti-war before first thinking about it. It just seems like anything that's said justifying U.S. actions in Iraq is immediately discredited by you, unjustly so. If I had the time, I could have picked apart most of what you said as you were picking apart the article we're discussing. You are a person who disagrees with the U.S. was in Iraq on any level. That's fine, but don't pretend to be an objective, unbiased person on this matter.
    "He's the best damn rollerskater that ever lived...probably in the whole town" - Chris Pontius

    If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.

    5'10" 215 lbs
    Personal Bests:
    Bench 355
    Squat 505
    Deadlift 560

  2. #27
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    south west Holland Europe
    Posts
    8,842
    so what direction am i not cynical in

  3. #28
    MACHINE
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    on the short bus
    Posts
    0
    Originally posted by Reinier
    because of WMD iraq got sanctioned, because of the sanctions they got/stayed poor, this caused all the problems in iraq after,
    and now the WMD that were supposed to justify war arent there,

    and it turns out this whole thing was nonsense from the start... and now somebody just says it doesn`t matter.
    Slow down, the war just ended weeks ago. There is an entire country to serch with a few hundred people. It could take a couple years before it is determined that weapons are or aren't there.
    "He's the best damn rollerskater that ever lived...probably in the whole town" - Chris Pontius

    If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.

    5'10" 215 lbs
    Personal Bests:
    Bench 355
    Squat 505
    Deadlift 560

  4. #29
    MACHINE
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    on the short bus
    Posts
    0
    Originally posted by Reinier
    so what direction am i not cynical in
    The reasons AGAINST war. I never hear you objectively discuss the fact that we "want their oil," that there may be WMDs there, among other things.

    Sorry reinier, I gotta go to a meeting right now, so I can't continue this discussion...

    later
    "He's the best damn rollerskater that ever lived...probably in the whole town" - Chris Pontius

    If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.

    5'10" 215 lbs
    Personal Bests:
    Bench 355
    Squat 505
    Deadlift 560

  5. #30
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    1,569
    Two seperate issues:

    1. UN sanctions were due to WMD's known to exist in 1991.

    2. Current justification of war by the Bush regime was due to exaggerated/false claims of the immanent threat of WMDs in 2003.

    But here is the quagmire. There is a paradox.

    A/. If Saddam had no WMDs or intended to destroy them then he would have done so before the war in order to preserve his own power.

    B/. If Saddam had WMDs then surely they would have been found by now in some form. (and I'm not talking about some rockets that fly 5% out of spec).

    It seems like neither A nor B is very plausible.

    The only explaination is that Saddam is a complete idiot and irrational. And as evil and merciless as he is, you don't get to run a country by being an idiot.

    Discuss....
    Last edited by hemants; 06-17-2003 at 01:24 PM.
    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  6. #31
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    south west Holland Europe
    Posts
    8,842
    Originally posted by gino


    Slow down, the war just ended weeks ago. There is an entire country to serch with a few hundred people. It could take a couple years before it is determined that weapons are or aren't there.
    If they had them, would they not have used them?

  7. #32
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    south west Holland Europe
    Posts
    8,842
    Originally posted by hemants
    Two seperate issues:

    1. UN sanctions were due to WMD's known to exist in 1991.

    2. Current justification of war by the Bush regime was due to exaggerated/false claims of the immanent threat of WMDs in 2003.

    But here is the quagmire. There is a paradox.

    A/. If Saddam had no WMDs or intended to destroy them then he would have done so before the war in order to preserve his own power.

    B/. If Saddam had WMDs then surely they would have been found by now in some form. (and I'm not talking about some rockets that fly 5% out of spec).

    It seems like neither A nor B is very plausible.

    The only explaination is that Saddam is a complete idiot and irrational. And as evil and merciless as he is, you don't get to run a country by being an idiot.

    Discuss....
    The thing is that your argumentation in option A may be incorrect.
    He may have realised he would be taken out of power whether he let the weapons out or not. Maybe it was the plan all along regardless of his actions

  8. #33
    MACHINE
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    on the short bus
    Posts
    0
    Originally posted by Reinier


    If they had them, would they not have used them?
    That's debatable. Maybe they would to deliver a nasty blow to us during our trip towards Baghdad, maybe they wouldn't in order to preserve international sympathies, which would have been completely gone if the trigger had been pulled. Maybe Saddam was killed earlier in the war and no one else was dumb/crazy enough to make that choice, or maybe he still lives and his motivation not to use them is the preservation of his own life. Then again, being an objective person, maybe those weapons don't exist. Anything is possible, so nothing should be discounted until there's proof one way or another.
    "He's the best damn rollerskater that ever lived...probably in the whole town" - Chris Pontius

    If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.

    5'10" 215 lbs
    Personal Bests:
    Bench 355
    Squat 505
    Deadlift 560

  9. #34
    Jack's Utter Surprise Saturday Fever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Chico
    Posts
    3,691
    I like how everyone who was saying, "THEY HAVE WEAPONS AND THEY'LL USE THEM! WOULD YOU RATHER YOUR LOVED ONES WERE DEAD?" are now saying, "Well, it was the right thing to do, we freed all those poor people."

    That's a good tactic. When your original idea fails miserably, create a new one and pretend it's been your idea all along.

  10. #35
    MACHINE
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    on the short bus
    Posts
    0
    Yeah, that's what everyone's saying

    "He's the best damn rollerskater that ever lived...probably in the whole town" - Chris Pontius

    If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.

    5'10" 215 lbs
    Personal Bests:
    Bench 355
    Squat 505
    Deadlift 560

  11. #36
    Banned Praetorian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    7th level
    Posts
    5,014
    no SF has a point tehre.

  12. #37
    Jack's Utter Surprise Saturday Fever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Chico
    Posts
    3,691
    Don't take it personal, but what is the bottom line of the original article in this thread? The bottom line was trying to establish alternative reasons to support what the US did. I'm not attacking anyone here, just that whole idea. The idea that people will blindly follow something because it's "American" and then find out what they were supporting was false, and jumping around to find an alternative reasoning. It's blind patriotism and it's dangerous.

  13. #38
    MulletII - AKA Ninja Boner Gyno Rhino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    FFFA Headquarters
    Posts
    11,468
    Good lord.

    I said originally that I'd rather be safe than sorry. Alot of people took the same stance.

    By taking down his regime, we were being safe rather than being sorry. Prevention is the best cure out there.

    That's my stance. Now feel free to bitch and moan about anything you want to. It can be as justified or unjustified as you want it to be. In my eyes, in my home, in my world, it's justified.

    Now go find a goat.
    Founding Member and CEO of the FFFA

    "All that matters is beauty on the inside! Outside beauty doesn't matter!"
    ~This is something ugly people say to feel better about themselves...

    "Strength and size don't matter! It's not fair to judge training knowledge based on strength and size!"
    ~This is something wussy people say to feel better about themselves...

    Pearls of Wisdom...


    Resident Ninja Demon (with a pet Radioactive Sloth) and SchlonkeyMaster of WBB!

    Rock is my 'Big Viking Brother', and not in a homo-esque way.

    And no COLON jokes, bastards!

  14. #39
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    south west Holland Europe
    Posts
    8,842

  15. #40
    MulletII - AKA Ninja Boner Gyno Rhino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    FFFA Headquarters
    Posts
    11,468
    Yeah, roll your eyes. That's fine.

    Without people like me, your country would be conquered the minute some crazy dictator snaps his fingers.

    It's happened, it'll happen again if somebody doesn't do something about it.
    Founding Member and CEO of the FFFA

    "All that matters is beauty on the inside! Outside beauty doesn't matter!"
    ~This is something ugly people say to feel better about themselves...

    "Strength and size don't matter! It's not fair to judge training knowledge based on strength and size!"
    ~This is something wussy people say to feel better about themselves...

    Pearls of Wisdom...


    Resident Ninja Demon (with a pet Radioactive Sloth) and SchlonkeyMaster of WBB!

    Rock is my 'Big Viking Brother', and not in a homo-esque way.

    And no COLON jokes, bastards!

  16. #41
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    south west Holland Europe
    Posts
    8,842
    There we go on the "You should shut up cuz you should be happy you have freedom of speech" tour again

  17. #42
    MulletII - AKA Ninja Boner Gyno Rhino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    FFFA Headquarters
    Posts
    11,468
    Did I say that? I sure didn't. I didn't mention a damned thing about freedom of speech, or you not saying your part.

    You're welcome to say whatever the hell you want.
    Founding Member and CEO of the FFFA

    "All that matters is beauty on the inside! Outside beauty doesn't matter!"
    ~This is something ugly people say to feel better about themselves...

    "Strength and size don't matter! It's not fair to judge training knowledge based on strength and size!"
    ~This is something wussy people say to feel better about themselves...

    Pearls of Wisdom...


    Resident Ninja Demon (with a pet Radioactive Sloth) and SchlonkeyMaster of WBB!

    Rock is my 'Big Viking Brother', and not in a homo-esque way.

    And no COLON jokes, bastards!

  18. #43
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    south west Holland Europe
    Posts
    8,842
    You sayd that before.
    you said i hope mr Oltmans realised hes only got the right to say what he says thanks to the system hes criticising.

    This was extremely paradoxal to me

  19. #44
    MulletII - AKA Ninja Boner Gyno Rhino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    FFFA Headquarters
    Posts
    11,468
    I sure did. I thought I'd bring that point to the table. I don't bring it every time, and I'm not bringing it up in this thread.

    Why don't you criticize what I posted above instead of dragging some point from a different thread/different situation in?
    Founding Member and CEO of the FFFA

    "All that matters is beauty on the inside! Outside beauty doesn't matter!"
    ~This is something ugly people say to feel better about themselves...

    "Strength and size don't matter! It's not fair to judge training knowledge based on strength and size!"
    ~This is something wussy people say to feel better about themselves...

    Pearls of Wisdom...


    Resident Ninja Demon (with a pet Radioactive Sloth) and SchlonkeyMaster of WBB!

    Rock is my 'Big Viking Brother', and not in a homo-esque way.

    And no COLON jokes, bastards!

  20. #45
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Posts
    7,850
    Are you kidding? That might lead to logical thinking and good ideas resulting from it.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  21. #46
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    south west Holland Europe
    Posts
    8,842
    you didn`t make a point you just said your happy they took safe over sorry.

    there was no argumentation of just what this threat was

  22. #47
    MulletII - AKA Ninja Boner Gyno Rhino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    FFFA Headquarters
    Posts
    11,468
    Alright. All of our discussions on the subject end up with the same thing: "I see what you're saying, but I disagree."

    So it's all cool.
    Founding Member and CEO of the FFFA

    "All that matters is beauty on the inside! Outside beauty doesn't matter!"
    ~This is something ugly people say to feel better about themselves...

    "Strength and size don't matter! It's not fair to judge training knowledge based on strength and size!"
    ~This is something wussy people say to feel better about themselves...

    Pearls of Wisdom...


    Resident Ninja Demon (with a pet Radioactive Sloth) and SchlonkeyMaster of WBB!

    Rock is my 'Big Viking Brother', and not in a homo-esque way.

    And no COLON jokes, bastards!

  23. #48
    Gonnabebig Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    IL, usa
    Posts
    284
    I am still waiting for someone to tell me what Iraq did with those WMD that they admitted to having in the past but can't account for now?!?!

    Reinier?!?! (please don't answer that they made it up to sound tough or scare away the boogieman)
    Last edited by Tackleberry; 06-17-2003 at 02:58 PM.

  24. #49
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    1,569
    They probably destroyed them gradually over the 12 years since 1991.

    The only remaining issue seems to be why they didn't provide sufficient EVIDENCE of that destruction.

    Maybe they did, or maybe they didn't, or maybe they would have given time?

    Is that true? Who is to judge? Hans Blix? Bush?

    I don't know the answer to that but if it is a matter that they destroyed them but that the evidence of destruction was not sufficient then the charge that Bush rushed into this war is probably justified.
    Last edited by hemants; 06-17-2003 at 03:21 PM.
    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  25. #50
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    1,569
    "there was no argumentation of just what this threat was"

    There was no threat according to the author of that letter and I happen to agree with that for the short term.

    In the long term, however, it is very dangerous for a dictator with a life long pursuit of nuclear weapons to have access to oil resources. I have no doubt that Saddam would launch a strike against America if he could. But that scenario was probably 10 years away at best.

    What has happened is that a combination of blind patriotism and fear after 9/11 allowed Bush to convince the Americans that there was a real and immanent threat.
    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •