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Thread: Iraq war - the real reason, the right reason, the moral reason, and the stated reason

  1. #51
    Jack's Utter Surprise Saturday Fever's Avatar
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    What, exactly, was the US being safer about? You can't say WMD because there aren't any over there. So what exactly was the safer referring to?

  2. #52
    Silicon Toad Yaz "Zay!"'s Avatar
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    Originally posted by Saturday Fever
    What, exactly, was the US being safer about? You can't say WMD because there aren't any over there.
    How do you know that?
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  3. #53
    Wannabebig New Member HahnB's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Saturday Fever
    What, exactly, was the US being safer about? You can't say WMD because there aren't any over there. So what exactly was the safer referring to?
    You can't be sure about that. Even if there was a 1% chance, it was worth it.
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  4. #54
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    "You can't be sure about that. Even if there was a 1% chance, it was worth it."


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  5. #55
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    Originally posted by Saturday Fever
    What, exactly, was the US being safer about? You can't say WMD because there aren't any over there. So what exactly was the safer referring to?
    This kills me that some people see this as the way it is before the search has even been underway for more than several weeks. I'll say it again - THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED SEARCHERS. THERE IS AN ENTIRE COUNTRY TO SEARCH. THE PURPOSE OF HIDING SOMETHING IS SO THAT SOMEONE WON'T FIND IT. PUT THESE THREE FACTORS TOGETHER AND IT COULD TAKE A YEAR OR TWO TO DEFINITIVELY DETERMINE IF THERE'S WMDs OR NOT.

    As I've stated before, I don't necessarily think that there is or isn't WMDs there, but it's not fair, logical, or intelligent to assume one or the other until inspections have thoroughly searched Iraq. Hell, it could take them longer than this to find the WMDs if they were searching Baghdad alone.
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  6. #56
    Jack's Utter Surprise Saturday Fever's Avatar
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    How can there be an entire country to search? Powell stated in front of the UN that he not only had proof the WMD existed, he even went as far as to show photos. He said the US knew where these weapons were.

    That said, it was less than a month later that the US invaded. Are you honestly believing that in a time of 2-3 weeks Iraq was able to take this "huge" store of WMD and hide them so effectively that US forces can't find them?

  7. #57
    bone crusher
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    SF makes an excellent point. the problem is that this country (especially this administration) refuses to ever 2nd guess itself or to the let the public see the "information" it has. The adiminstration behaves much like a prosecutor who wrongfully prosecutes someone (who is later proven innocent) and refuses to the very end to ever consider that they may have made a mistake.

    was this worth the death of 142+ american soldiers much less the 3500+ iraqi civilians (data from AP)? I certainly dont think so

  8. #58
    Gonnabebig Member
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    For those of you who totally oppose the war for whatever reasons I ask...

    If bush had said we are going to war to remove and evil dictator and because he may have WMD.

    Would you all still be against the war??

  9. #59
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    Originally posted by Saturday Fever
    How can there be an entire country to search? Powell stated in front of the UN that he not only had proof the WMD existed, he even went as far as to show photos. He said the US knew where these weapons were.

    That said, it was less than a month later that the US invaded. Are you honestly believing that in a time of 2-3 weeks Iraq was able to take this "huge" store of WMD and hide them so effectively that US forces can't find them?
    Maybe we did know where they were . Were being the key word. Saddam was a dictator with plenty of financial resources and people who did what he said, when he said. Hiding weapons in 2-3 weeks is very possible, but he had MUCH longer than that to prepare. Would you think that with all of the pressure and accusations from the U.S, Saddam wouldn't have a plan A, B, C, D, etc for those weapons including everything from destroying them quickly, to hiding them, to maybe even using them?

    Again, I must reiterate(sp?) that I don't feel strongly one way or another, simply because its too early, and there's little proof one way or another. If someone came along and said that there definitely ARE WMDs there, I'd argue against that too, because of the same reasons.

    The best thing to do is sit, wait, not make assumptions, and not pass off opinions as fact.
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  10. #60
    bone crusher
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    when will the time come when we can say you (the administration) have had long enough

    tackleberry, that question is irrelevant. The point is that bush took us to war on the premise that hussein was involved in sept 11, he currently had large stockpiles of chem and bio weps, and was inches away from having nukes. These were the reasons that congress authorized war, and bush used to sell the war to the american people. Well the first and last claims were dubious at best (the al quada link was totally proposterous) and now have turned out to be based on fraudulent documents (in the case of the nukes).

    yes we will give the soldiers more time to find weapons, but when you have leaders of teams openly talking about their total frustration of turning up NOTHING (and yes those truck trailers have not test positive for ANY type of organism of concern) then it is time for the american people to hold their leaedership accountable for its actions

  11. #61
    WBBs motivational Speaker Rock's Avatar
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    but the thing is, that nobody seems to understand, the more muslims die, the more terrorist will come, doesnt anyone get that.
    A big thanks to all my friends in the USA, I am deeply grateful for your hospitality and kindness.

  12. #62
    Gonnabebig Member
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    Originally posted by Rock
    but the thing is, that nobody seems to understand, the more muslims die, the more terrorist will come, doesnt anyone get that.
    Very true!! Guess we all better lay down and let radical muslims have their way!!

  13. #63
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    Originally posted by the doc
    when will the time come when we can say you (the administration) have had long enough

    There is no set time, but I can tell you that right now is too early, and next month will be too early too.

    And the funny thing about this whole conversation is that I really think that there are no WMDs in Iraq, and that evidence of their presence was exaggerated by the U.S. government prior to the war. However, it is still possible, and not necessarily unlikely that there are at least some WMDs somewhere in Iraq. I wouldn't be surprised either way - happy or disappointed maybe, but not surprised. For these reasons, I don't just tell everyone "there are no WMDs in Iraq" even though that's what I think is probably the case. A couple hundred people searching a country for a few weeks is far from proof, so I won't pass on my personal opinion as "the way it is" without proof, and I think that's the right thing to do for anyone...yet another opinion.
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  14. #64
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tackleberry
    For those of you who totally oppose the war for whatever reasons I ask...

    If bush had said we are going to war to remove and evil dictator and because he may have WMD.

    Would you all still be against the war??
    Yes.
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  15. #65
    Jack's Utter Surprise Saturday Fever's Avatar
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    That IS what Bush said. Though he said "he has" and not "he may have."

    I'm not about to dignify Rock's comment with a reply aside from the following:

  16. #66
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    Originally posted by Reinier


    The moral reasons dont cut wood, because for a 1/1000 of the cost you could save 1000 times more lives...
    This one is pure genius.

  17. #67
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    Originally posted by gino


    Slow down, the war just ended weeks ago. There is an entire country to serch with a few hundred people. It could take a couple years before it is determined that weapons are or aren't there.
    The war didn't end. If it had, according to Geneva convention you would have to release all war prisioners and you haven't done so. Of course, international laws have never been a concern for Bush administration but anyway....
    Last edited by restless; 06-18-2003 at 03:04 PM.

  18. #68
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    Originally posted by HahnB


    You can't be sure about that. Even if there was a 1% chance, it was worth it.
    What was worth it? The killing of innocent 5 year olds? Or the new echonomical possibilities opened by having texas oil companies admnistrating Iraq's oil fields?

  19. #69
    WBBs motivational Speaker Rock's Avatar
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    SaturdayFever, all I am saying is that the young men that will grow up in Iraq today, and have casualites in their friends and families caused by the west, will hate the west, and there you go a new generation of terrorists.

    But I saddam is gone, and that is good, for now.
    A big thanks to all my friends in the USA, I am deeply grateful for your hospitality and kindness.

  20. #70
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    Originally posted by Tackleberry


    Very true!! Guess we all better lay down and let radical muslims have their way!!
    Or maybe you just should keep on shopwing a total disrespect for the whole world's opinions, keep supporting dictators at your convinience and discard them as they're no longer usefull, keep using biological terrorism like you did in Vietnam and keep ignoring the horrible consequences it has had on the 500 000 children born with horrendous defects, keep ignoring the hundreds or maybe thousands of deaths and cripplings caused by the millions of undetonated bombs used in Laos, keep sabotaging the whole world efforts to make this place a little less poluted by denying to participate in the Kyoto protocol, while you still produce 25% of the total pollutent gas emissions, etc.....

    Excuse us for not having the highest of regards for your intentions.




  21. #71
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Saturday Fever


    I'm not about to dignify Rock's comment with a reply aside from the following:
    why would you roll oyur eyes at that?

    Rock has a very good point. this war on Iraq imo, probably just quadrupled the number of extremists ready to do whatever they can to take the US down.
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  22. #72
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    Originally posted by restless


    Or maybe you just should keep on shopwing a total disrespect for the whole world's opinions, keep supporting dictators at your convinience and discard them as they're no longer usefull, keep using biological terrorism like you did in Vietnam and keep ignoring the horrible consequences it has had on the 500 000 children born with horrendous defects, keep ignoring the hundreds or maybe thousands of deaths and cripplings caused by the millions of undetonated bombs used in Laos, keep sabotaging the whole world efforts to make this place a little less poluted by denying to participate in the Kyoto protocol, while you still produce 25% of the total pollutent gas emissions, etc.....

    Excuse us for not having the highest of regards for your intentions.



    damn. well said, restless. you know - iwas talkign to this Danish friend fo mine last night about this whole situation with the middle east. he was syaing how 50% of the power in Denmark comes from wind power. What i don't udnerstand is why we insist on using oil and not exploring all the sustainable renewable sources of fuel available to us?
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  23. #73
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    Originally posted by restless


    The war didn't end. If it had, according to Geneva convention you would have to release all war prisioners and you haven't done so. Of course, international laws have never been a concern for Bush administration but anyway....
    Well, without consulting with my Geneva Convention Cliffs Notes, yes major combat has ceased, thus the "war" has ended. The battle/battles continue and will continue, but the war, as most of us define war, has ended.

    "Biological terrorism" we used in Vietnam over 30 years ago a poor point to bring up and an inaccurate description of our actions there, at best.

    Originally posted by Tryska


    iwas talkign to this Danish friend fo mine last night about this whole situation with the middle east. he was syaing how 50% of the power in Denmark comes from wind power. What i don't udnerstand is why we insist on using oil and not exploring all the sustainable renewable sources of fuel available to us?
    Well, I may be wrong, but I don't think the danes are using wind to fuel their automobiles. Automobiles create the majority of demand for oil. In my opinion, some manufacturers in the automotive industry f'ed up big time by introducing "alternate fuel" automobiles before they were ready for a serious comparison to gasoline power. The first electric powered cars were sluggish, slow, inconvenient to recharge, ugly, etc... These are things we expect from alternate fuel cars now, and even if they made an attractive one with comperable power to gasoline engine, I'd still have those thoughts and expectations in my head from the first generations of these cars and not buy one. If the auto-manufacturers had waited, invested more in R&D, and introduced a great alternate fuel automobile later, they could have reinvented the industry.

    Being in new product development for my job, what they have done is the worst example of product development ever. For any new product, what we call "CTQs" (critical to quality) must be established and we live by these. This simply tells what attributes are desired/required from a specific new product, and then we organize them into a "prioritization of attributes" list. This list not only tells us what the customer wants, but prioritizes them into rank of importance. We try to satisfy all of the end-user needs, but pay special attention to the top ones and satisfy those ones as much as possible - it's a tough balancing act between the top 2 or 3 attributes because they often contradict one another - for instance, the end user may want an attractive car that's fast, comfortable, and affordable. Well they probably can't get all of those things to the extent that they would like, but we can balance them as much as possible to provide them with "adequate" amounts of each of those - as much as we can give. The first generation of alternate fuel automobiles were ugly, sluggish, and compact - affordability and electric power were the only selling features, but they were definitely not the only CTQs.

    And there's one chapter from product management 101 - sorry to get off topic

    lol
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  24. #74
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    Originally posted by gino


    Well, without consulting with my Geneva Convention Cliffs Notes, yes major combat has ceased, thus the "war" has ended. The battle/battles continue and will continue, but the war, as most of us define war, has ended.

    "Biological terrorism" we used in Vietnam over 30 years ago a poor point to bring up and an inaccurate description of our actions there, at best.

    It is a valid point when one wants to understand why the USA is the only country to have a flag burned every single day all over the world and why the anti american sentiment is growing so strong in so many places.

    It seems like all you have learned from past mistakes is to polish and clean up your military actions in order to make them suitable for dinner time media consumption. Maybe I should be congratulating you for only having killed a few thousands of innocents without even bothering to provide some kind of credible evidence to the rest of the world, instead of hundreds of thousands or even millions like in the past, but hey, I don't think you deserve any tap on the back.

    Personally, I will never forgive you for your refusal to particiate in the Kyoto conference. You should be pressuring your government and your compatriots to start thinking about the damages you're doing. Do you think you all reallt need 3-4000 cc engines in your cars? Isn't the 25 % figure something you are,or should be ashamed off?

  25. #75
    Gonnabebig Member
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    Originally posted by restless



    It is a valid point when one wants to understand why the USA is the only country to have a flag burned every single day all over the world and why the anti american sentiment is growing so strong in so many places.

    Jealousy.


    It seems like all you have learned from past mistakes is to polish and clean up your military actions in order to make them suitable for dinner time media consumption. Maybe I should be congratulating you for only having killed a few thousands of innocents without even bothering to provide some kind of credible evidence to the rest of the world, instead of hundreds of thousands or even millions like in the past, but hey, I don't think you deserve any tap on the back.


    saddam killed more, but you anti-americans could care less about that fact.


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