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Thread: powerlifting - need elementary advice

  1. #1
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    powerlifting - need elementary advice

    i've been lifting for some time, but my experience falls largely under the umbrella of bodybuilding-type logic. sure, i purchased supertraining, and i understand most of the general relevent concepts, but my understanding of some of the finer aspects of strength training is...lacking.

    i know a lot of people like westside, and i know powerman performs his own variant of powerlifting, in part derivative of advice gleaned from supertraining (i believe). i was looking to set up a good basic powerlifting routine...

    hardgainer type 'strength' routines are way too infrequent for my tastes. i actually prefer more frequent/volume-esque training IF i'm not constantly pushing the limits of my CNS. this is why westside seemed a reasonable protocol, though i'm not against other interpretations.

    so here's the lifts i'd like to concentrate on improving my 1RM in (obviously):

    squats
    deads
    bench
    (and maybe even chins)

    here's questions i have

    1) links to relevent articles/basic powerlifting training with the specifications i have mentioned (probably not westside, as i have plenty of links for that). or just information/thoughts from people who powerlift, eg powermandl etc.
    2) information on what item(s) i could use to substitute for the box in box squats (i really want to try these). or, for that matter, where i could purchase some boxes for not outrageous prices...
    3) any other 'babying' that would allow me to construct a good program (probably not for use for a while yet, a couple months as i'm in the middle of an HST cycle, but i figure i'll plan ahead of time).

  2. #2
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    1) links to relevent articles/basic powerlifting training with the specifications i have mentioned (probably not westside, as i have plenty of links for that). or just information/thoughts from people who powerlift, eg powermandl etc.

    ** There are lots of articles on various types of training at www.deepsquatter.com and www.weighttrainersunited.com

    2) information on what item(s) i could use to substitute for the box in box squats (i really want to try these). or, for that matter, where i could purchase some boxes for not outrageous prices...

    ** Box squats are not a necessity unless you are training WSB - I just use an aerobic step. You can build boxes, or buy one from elitefts.com (its like $130)

    3) any other 'babying' that would allow me to construct a good program (probably not for use for a while yet, a couple months as i'm in the middle of an HST cycle, but i figure i'll plan ahead of time).

    ** Read the articles. my suggestion would be to do the 3 lifts as often as possible to get your form down and idetify your weak areas.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
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  3. #3
    Banned KingJustin's Avatar
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    Going along with what he said, what kind of supplements (no AS) should a powerlifter/strongman take? I've been supplementing & eating like a BB and training for strength since I've started..

  4. #4
    Senior Member benchmonster's Avatar
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    What kinds of supps should a powerlifter take besides AAS?

    Well, unless it is a food supplement, or a multivitamin, and they sell it at GNC, it is probably a waste of money.

    If they sell it at a Mexican pharmacy, then it is probably a wise investment.

    Learn those 2 phrases, memorize them, and save yourself lots of money and years of frustration.

    And to the thread starter, I don't really know what it is you are asking. If you want to train using the westside program, which I would recommend, then get after it. Start off with Bob Young's 9 week basic training program, follow it to a T, and read every article every written by Dave Tate or Louie Simmons during those 9 weeks. Ask questions of people who are powerlifters.

    Feel free to contact me here via PM any time you have a question. I am always happy to help, if you are serious. But if you don't live eat and breathe the iron game, don't waste my time. I don't answer questions about how to get a 6 pack, or how to get "ripped" up for the beach, or to get girls. However, if you are serious about getting as strong as humanly possible, contact me.

    B.

  5. #5
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    First, I don't agree with Bench's advice about steroids at all. There were men who were very big and strong way before steroids. Herman Goerner (sp?) is a perfect example, he deadlifted well over 700 lbs back in the 20s (he could do 727, I believe, with 1 hand!).

    How about Doug Hepburn, benching in the mid 500s without a shirt.

    You can be big and strong without drugs.

    As far as supplements, it would depend on your goals, but a good protein supplement and creatine musts.

  6. #6
    Senior Member benchmonster's Avatar
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    Chris, I absolutely agree with you. Those guys and others were unbeleivably strong before steroids. I think you may have missed the point of my post.

    You can, and many do, get very strong without steroids. But if you are buying crap at GNC thinking CellTech is going to turn you into Arnold, you are mistaken.

    And I would consider a protein supplement to be one of the food replacement supps that I gave positive reviews to in my previous post.

    Goerner, and Hebburn were absolute icon's of strength. Goerner in particular could run the 100 yard dash carrying a pair of 110 lb KettleBells faster than I could probably run it carrying nothing. And yes, he did deadlift over 700 with one hand. His hand strength was unreal.

    I have never, and will never say you cannot be big and or strong without drugs. But I will stick with my position that money spent on over the counter supps at the GNC besides meal replacements, and possibly creatine (not for me, but I know it works for some) would be better spent on food or supplements that actually work, aka test, deca, dbol, etc. . .

    It is very easy to spend more money at the GNC or other such store on CellTech, and EAS products than what most serious trainers spend on Sustenon, and Deca-Durabolin. And guess who is getting more return in the form of muscle and strength for their dollar invested?

    That is all I am sayin. . . I just hate for everyone else to blow as much money on magical over the counter supplements as I did over the years.

    B.

  7. #7
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by benchmonster
    But I will stick with my position that money spent on over the counter supps at the GNC besides meal replacements, and possibly creatine (not for me, but I know it works for some) would be better spent on food or supplements that actually work, aka test, deca, dbol, etc. . .
    Truer words have never been spoken.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

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    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

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    sample routine?

    after talking with powermandl (thanks powerman), i've come up with a basic framework that i think could...be...good?

    The idea would be 2 week mesocycles, divided as such:

    Week 1
    ----------
    Monday-Dynamic Lower I (deads)
    Tuesday-Dynamic Upper I (chins)
    Wednesday-Off
    Thursday-Dynamic Lower II (squats)
    Friday-Dynamic Upper II (bench)

    Dynamic Days = speed work for specified lift + assistance work (including a few sets of the actual lift itself in the ~80% 1RM neighborhood, done well shy of failure, concentrating on form/explosive concentric). all work is done shy of failure.




    Week 2
    ----------
    Monday-Maximal Lower I (deads)
    Tuesday-Maximal Upper I (chins)
    Wednesday-Off
    Thursday-Maximal Lower II (squats)
    Friday-Maximal Upper II (bench)

    Maximal Days = a couple/few working sets of the specified lifts in the 1 to 5 rep range (3 to 5 for the powerlifts) to failure, attempting new PR's. perhaps another exercise or two thrown in (like thick bar holds for grip work on maximal dead day, or heavy sidebends on the squat day).


    Notes:

    on dynamic days, ALL sets are either A) speed sets (based on the logic outlined by westside) or B) 'medium' sets (around ~80% 1RM) done shy of failure, probably ~3 sets an exercise. the only time i'm hitting failure is during the maximal week, and i keep volume reasonably low to keep from utterly frying my CNS. after the maximal week is over, i loop back to another dynamic week in which i will (probably) use a little more weight than i did the first time around. after the second run-through of the maximal week (the 4th week total in the routine), i will reset 1RM's and all the dynamic values will be reset to reflect this. and so on and so forth...probably repeating this series of 2 weeks either 3 or 4 times (for a total of 6 to 8 weeks specializing in these lifts).

    that's my idea...and i'd really appreciate feedback on the concept

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    no thoughts?

  10. #10
    Grand Kaiser of h8 RG570's Avatar
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    powerman rocks, that split looks similar to mine,
    and by that i mean its a good split. you should see some very good resullts.
    Pup, in reference to me: "he's like Budiak...but worse"

    Budiak: "Statistically I've gained almost an inch on my arms...but thats just theory, and we know what theory gets us. Thats right. Communism."

    BigChaseyChase: "Cutting, there will not be!"

    sir millard mulch: "I could probably punch some chick really hard at this point"

    Galileo - "Someday maybe I'll be able to use the big boy weights like RG570."

  11. #11
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    Just a question. Why do you do a week of DE days and then a week of ME days? Why not just do both in one week? Not that I think the routine is bad or anything, I just wondered what the logic was behind it.
    Squat - 505
    Bench - 325
    Deadlift - 550
    Total - 1380@175

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by dkliewer
    Just a question. Why do you do a week of DE days and then a week of ME days? Why not just do both in one week? Not that I think the routine is bad or anything, I just wondered what the logic was behind it.
    well, westside incorporates it all into one week though they employ conjugate training, ie training other compound exercises that are similar, and rotating them every few weeks. anecdotally, i know i 'lose the groove' on squats/deads if i don't practice them semi-frequently, and by seperating this into two week blocks, i think i can perform the actual movements more often without having to rotate in similar exercises for max effort. i also like the idea of only training to failure one week out of two. i'm not a fan of training to failure all the time anymore...

    basically, the logic just appeals to me more

  13. #13
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    Fair enough, but on ME days you're not necessarily training to failure, you're going for a 1RM..so granted you may fail if you attempt a weight that's too heavy but it's not the same as muscular failure.

    Just a thought

  14. #14
    Jack's Utter Surprise Saturday Fever's Avatar
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    Yeah and just as a general comment, and meaning no insult to you or anyone, the Westside method is based on much better science than a routine any of us can cough up for you. It has years of success to speak for it, while anything we can provide, individually or as a community, speak of the same success.

    Just food for the brain.

  15. #15
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    That routine is actually based around a routine from an Olympic and powerlifting strength coach by the name of JV Askem, who has easily rivaled Westside's success and was doing it a lot longer.

    That's where I adapted the concept from, and it uses many of the same approaches while allowing someone to specialize in more than just the three powerlifts.

    Westside's a good program, but its not THE best by any means. I've had better gains from the program above than I ever got from straight Westside, and I don't have to use any toys.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  16. #16
    Jack's Utter Surprise Saturday Fever's Avatar
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    Are there any books, etc by Askem? I'd be interested in reading them.

  17. #17
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  18. #18
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    Powerman!

    I go to this website all the time! You trained with this guy!?!?!?

    EXCELLENT!! Much respect!

  19. #19
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Oh hell no.....never trained with him.

    Just been a big fan of his methods for quite awhile now, and in a lot of ways I prefer them over most of what I see out there now.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  20. #20
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    Agree...his site is one of the best I've seen with regards to training! I've learned a ton of stuff off his site and incorporated some of the O-lifting stuff in my routine!

    Again...Much respect for that!

    But you mentioned he was your coach...did you actually talk to him or anything like that? There's one guy I wouldn't mind sitting down with talking training!

  21. #21
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Errr....I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I didn't say he was my coach, just that he was a coach, period.

    It'd be nice to speak with him, I agree, but unfortunately he passed away back in January I believe.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  22. #22
    Newd poster SquareHead's Avatar
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    Power man about how long did you train with him?
    Old Journal


    " I'd give up a pinky or a toe or something I don't need those"
    -PwrMajt:

    "Remember, as long as you don't kick them in the head or use a weapon, it's only a misdemeanor." -JustinASU

    I nominate this thread for the Tim Nissen Award! -El P

  23. #23
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Originally posted by SquareHead
    Power man about how long did you train with him?
    :evillaugh tuttut

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