The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
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    Never fat and carbs in same meal?

    I was reading an article in one of the muscle rags the other day, and it said to have your meals consist of protein and carbs, or protein and fat, but never with fat and carbs in the same meal. In calorie deficit, it wouldn't matter. I guess the theory is, if you have surplus calories, and you are eating fat and carbs together, the body is gonna burn the carbs and store the fat. As far as I'm concerned, a calorie is a calorie, and whether it comes from fat or carbs has little to do with how it's used. What do you guys think? I really like my Peanut Butter WW toast with my Egg white omelettes.

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  3. #2
    Gen_chat worst nightmare
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    I think that theory is nonsense. There's no data whatsoever to support it, so even though the racionale in theory kind of makes sense, in practice it means squat.

  4. #3
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by restless
    I think that theory is nonsense. There's no data whatsoever to support it, so even though the racionale in theory kind of makes sense, in practice it means squat.
    Agreed

    http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...hlight=Berardi


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  5. #4
    Porn Star YatesNightBlade's Avatar
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    All to do with insulin response. The fat slows down the level at which digestion occurs anyway so I can't see the problem.
    * * * * * * * * *
    Yates

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  6. #5
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    in fact any time outside of post workout you are better off because as yates says it slows down digestion and controls insulin levels

  7. #6
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    Thanks for the replies guys. I don't eat enough fat anyway (working on that, started eating 1/4 cup almonds or 1/4 cup walnuts daily, along with my natty PB (1tbsp) and salmon or tuna. haven't figured out where to get or how to use various oils yet).

  8. #7
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    worst comes to worst, you can do shots of flax oil.
    tastes nasty but you're eating to live, not living to eat, right?

  9. #8
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    im pretty new to this but i think they mean simple carbs with bad fats.. think of a food with high carbs and high fat that is good for you.. you cant.

  10. #9
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by kozen
    im pretty new to this but i think they mean simple carbs with bad fats.. think of a food with high carbs and high fat that is good for you.. you cant.
    Mainly referring to carbs and fats in general.

  11. #10
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    Originally posted by restless
    I think that theory is nonsense. There's no data whatsoever to support it, so even though the racionale in theory kind of makes sense, in practice it means squat.
    Have you tried it?
    I have had great success keeping my carbs and fats separate while bulking or cutting.
    I see a lot of dieting advice with references to various articles and studies but I wonder how much of this advice is coming from actual personal experience. You can find references supporting and discrediting almost any conceivable diet plan. What I am interested in hearing about is what people have actually tried and their results.

  12. #11
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    Originally posted by gopher

    Have you tried it?
    I have had great success keeping my carbs and fats separate while bulking or cutting.
    I see a lot of dieting advice with references to various articles and studies but I wonder how much of this advice is coming from actual personal experience. You can find references supporting and discrediting almost any conceivable diet plan. What I am interested in hearing about is what people have actually tried and their results.
    Sure. I too once was a loyal T-magger. Mixing carbs and fats doesn't make the sightest difference in weight loss at the same activity and energy balance. It's that simple. If it helps you sticking to your plan or if you believe it's important do it, but there's no evidence that it does anything.

  13. #12
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    The only evidence I need is my own personal results. I've been at this for over 12 years and I have tried many different training and dieting strategies over the years. I have learned that I can get far more shredded while maintaining more lean mass on a 2400 (+/- a few hundred) calorie diet that is lower in carbs than the same 2400 calorie diet that is higher carb and lower fat.
    The " a calorie is a calorie" approach to dieting may work for the average joe looking to lose (or gain) a few lbs but for a bodybuilder looking to build maximum lean mass with minimum body fat it isn't that simple. Your body is constantly trying to adapt to your current situation in an attempt to remain in it's current state. Sometimes you have to "trick" your body to get it to continue to add mass or shed BF.

    Oh, and I wouldn't call myself a loyal T-magger. I've read some of their stuff but I am more of a loyal follower of the Beverly way.

  14. #13
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    Originally posted by gopher
    The only evidence I need is my own personal results. I've been at this for over 12 years and I have tried many different training and dieting strategies over the years. I have learned that I can get far more shredded while maintaining more lean mass on a 2400 (+/- a few hundred) calorie diet that is lower in carbs than the same 2400 calorie diet that is higher carb and lower fat
    I understand what you are saying about personal experience but can you explain the physiological difference with the two diets

    can you explain what happens in your body that is different ?

    the only explanation I see is that your body burns more cals with the low carb diet and that is what makes the difference

    I'm theorizing that when you eat a high carb meal and cause a larger than desired insulin response and your blood sugar drops quickly your body responds by burning less calories

    at least thats how I *feel* anyway

  15. #14
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Holto

    I'm theorizing that when you eat a high carb meal and cause a larger than desired insulin response and your blood sugar drops quickly your body responds by burning less calories

    at least thats how I *feel* anyway
    When insulin levels drop then your body would be more likely to start mobilizing fatty acids for fuel.

    One could argue that if two individuals were given the same amount of carbs and one consumed high GI and one consumed low GI, that the individual that consumed the high GI carb would start burning fat sooner than the individual eating the low GI carbs. This would be due to the insulin responses caused by the two different types of carbohydrates.

  16. #15
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    Originally posted by bradley
    When insulin levels drop then your body would be more likely to start mobilizing fatty acids for fuel

    *** of course

    One could argue that if two individuals were given the same amount of carbs and one consumed high GI and one consumed low GI, that the individual that consumed the high GI carb would start burning fat sooner than the individual eating the low GI carbs. This would be due to the insulin responses caused by the two different types of carbohydrates.

    *** the high GI individual is also more likely to deposit some energy from each meal

    You made that point clear in the earlier thread

    what you're saying is simple physiology to me and I agree

    the high GI individual *may* be burning less total cals in a day because of the bouts of low blood sugar

    I have always understood the body interpets this as a sign of starvation and would try to compensate by slowing metabolic rate

    I have more energy in a day when I maintain more stable blood sugar levels

    it feels like I'm burning more cals but it may not even be cause for speculation

    after reading some recent threads I'm starting to wonder if the reason I feel like garbage when my blood sugar is low is because my metabolism i*s still humming

    in which case I'm mis-interpreting the response as my metabolism slowing down

  17. #16
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    Originally posted by gopher

    Have you tried it?
    I have had great success keeping my carbs and fats separate while bulking or cutting.
    I see a lot of dieting advice with references to various articles and studies but I wonder how much of this advice is coming from actual personal experience. You can find references supporting and discrediting almost any conceivable diet plan. What I am interested in hearing about is what people have actually tried and their results.
    HUGE BUMP,

    gopher I couldnt agree more, I record everything to the T when it comes to training, diet etc, during cutting and bulking, and the differerance has been so dramatic that I have no doubt in my mind, that mixing large amounts of carbs and fats is a huge no no. Its truely remarkable the amount of cals I can consume without gaining much fat when I plan my meals around this principle. I dont care how many links bradley posts, I know for me, that it definatley makes a differance.

    Bradley keeps on mentioning that fat can be stored without the presence of insulin (ie from carb sources). However, this I do not dispute. he also states that protein can create enough of an insulin response to store fat as fat. However, this is somewhat irrelevant/unbelievable. Because when it comes down to it, people, and us bodybuilders particularly need to use some of our calories consumed as fuel (burn as energy, not stored as fat) and when you havnt eaten in an hour or two and consume fat and protein, EVERYBODY knows that fat will be used as the primary energy source, therefore MORE of it will be BURNED as ENERGY, as then it would when consumed with carbs. You cant tell me that if you consume a fat protein meal, that none of that fat will be used for energy. Howevever, you can tell me that if you have a carb and fat meal, that pretty much all that fat will be stored.When consumed with carbs, ALL of it WILL be stored as FAT. By your reasoning, it is impossible for fat to be consumed and used directly as energy. However there have been many studies measuring the performance of athletes, and in many cases athletes have benefited in energy levels from consuming a protein/fat meal pregame/workout opposed to a protein/carb meal. if the protien on its own prohibits the fat being burned as fuel, why the increase energy, wouldnt this result in a very negative effect?
    Last edited by spl_373; 06-30-2003 at 12:44 AM.

  18. #17
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by spl_373
    he also states that protein can create enough of an insulin response to store fat as fat. However, this is somewhat irrelevant/unbelievable. Because when it comes down to it, people, and us bodybuilders particularly need to use some of our calories consumed as fuel (burn as energy, not stored as fat) and when you havnt eaten in an hour or two and consume fat and protein, EVERYBODY knows that fat will be used as the primary energy source, therefore MORE of it will be BURNED as ENERGY, as then it would when consumed with carbs. You cant tell me that if you consume a fat protein meal, that none of that fat will be used for energy. Howevever, you can tell me that if you have a carb and fat meal, that pretty much all that fat will be stored.When consumed with carbs, ALL of it WILL be stored as FAT. By your reasoning, it is impossible for fat to be consumed and used directly as energy. However there have been many studies measuring the performance of athletes, and in many cases athletes have benefited in energy levels from consuming a protein/fat meal pregame/workout opposed to a protein/carb meal. if the protien on its own prohibits the fat being burned as fuel, why the increase energy, wouldnt this result in a very negative effect?
    I stated that protein can cause an insulin response, which has been proven, and insulin is a storage hormone. If you were to eat enough protein and fat in the same meal then yes some of the fat would be stored as fat, but I never said that just because you eat a meal that contains protein and fat that the fat will automatically be stored as bodyfat. Your interpretation that insulin is the determining factor as to whether you gain fat bf or not is incorrect.

    What about the fact that fat is digested/absorbed by the body at a very slow rate, so therefor if you were eating a meal approx. every 3 hours then some of the fat would just be entering the bloodstream when the next protein carb meal was being consumed. This would allow fat and insulin to be present at the same time.

    The opposite could also be true. If you were to consume a large carb protein meal consisting of low GI carbs then insulin levels could still be elevated when your next meal is consumed. If this meal happens to contain protein and fat then insulin and fat would be present at the same time.

    What about the studies that show there is little difference between fat loss between a keto diet and a more balanced diet? By your reasoning the keto group should have lost signficantly more weight.
    Last edited by bradley; 06-30-2003 at 03:40 AM.

  19. #18
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Holto
    *** the high GI individual is also more likely to deposit some energy from each meal
    I would not think the conversion of carbs to fat would happen unless a huge amount of carbs were taken in. De novo lipogenesis is not an effecient process, and for the conversion of carbs to fat would take a massive amount of carbs.


    the high GI individual *may* be burning less total cals in a day because of the bouts of low blood sugar

    I have always understood the body interpets this as a sign of starvation and would try to compensate by slowing metabolic rate

    I have more energy in a day when I maintain more stable blood sugar levels

    it feels like I'm burning more cals but it may not even be cause for speculation

    after reading some recent threads I'm starting to wonder if the reason I feel like garbage when my blood sugar is low is because my metabolism i*s still humming

    in which case I'm mis-interpreting the response as my metabolism slowing down
    Insulin does have an affect on leptin levels because of the fact that insulin is responsible for driving glucose into the fat cells, and this would also have an effect on metabolism.
    Last edited by bradley; 06-30-2003 at 03:52 AM.

  20. #19
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    Thanks for the support spl. I too keep very detailed records of my diet and training and have learned what works best for me. I have no doubt that what works for me will work for some while it may not be the best approach for others. I generally try to steer away from the "scientific" arguments surrounding the various approaches to diet and nutrition because it seems that there is so much conflicting info out there that everyone can find studies to support their arguments. I like to hear what real people are doing in the real world. Yes the science behind it is interesting but I want to know what works for you and can I make it work for me.
    As I understand it the theory behind separating carbs and fat is because when isulin levels are raised fat burning is slowed or even stopped and dietary fats are stored as BF instead of being used for energy. I also believe that as long as meals are kept 3 hours apart Bradley's concerns about remaining fats from the previous fat meal or raised insulin from a previous carb meal are not a factor.
    Like I said above, I'm sure there are plenty of people who will support this idea and just as many if not more who will shoot it full of holes. I just know that it works very well for me. There are so many variables that change from person to person that there will never be a one size fits all diet plan that will work for everyone.
    Last edited by gopher; 06-30-2003 at 09:47 AM.

  21. #20
    the stone cold stunner Ironman8's Avatar
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    Gopher, have you thought about starting a journal?
    You kill me in a dream, you better wake up and apologize....

  22. #21
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gopher
    As I understand it the theory behind separating carbs and fat is because when isulin levels are raised fat burning is slowed or even stopped and dietary fats are stored as BF instead of being used for energy.
    That is the theory.

    I also believe that as long as meals are kept 3 hours apart Bradley's concerns about remaining fats from the previous fat meal or raised insulin from a previous carb meal are not a factor.
    Although this would ultimately depend on the size, composition, etc. of the meal, but it has already been established that a protein and fat meal can supply the body with nutrients for up to 4+ hours. Hence the reason that it is recommeneded to consume a slow digesting protein along with fat before bed.

    The same would hold true for a large meal that consisted of protein and low GI carbs. It takes time for food to be digested and absorbed by the body.


    Like I said above, I'm sure there are plenty of people who will support this idea and just as many if not more who will shoot it full of holes. I just know that it works very well for me. There are so many variables that change from person to person that there will never be a one size fits all diet plan that will work for everyone.
    If what you described has been working for you then stick with it. If something is not broken then don't fix it
    Last edited by bradley; 06-30-2003 at 11:24 AM.

  23. #22
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    Originally posted by Ironman8
    Gopher, have you thought about starting a journal?
    Yes I have but I I don't have that much time for the internet. I don't think I would keep it as up to date as I should so I just stick with my written diet and training log.
    I am about to take a break from the diet and lifting to go on vacation with my family. Maybe when I get back and start eating for mass again I'll take a crack at keeping an on line journal here. A mass journal would be more fun any ways. I'll have much better progression on the amount of weight lifted when I am eating for mass.

  24. #23
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    I've also had great reesults eating fat with carbs, or splitting them, and you know why? Because it comes down to energy balance. Food combining is just whishfull thinking.

  25. #24
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    Originally posted by restless
    It comes down to energy balance
    I definitely agree here

    what diet strategies (if any) effect Energy Burned ?

    speculate with me people?

    we know eating solid foods requires more cals to digest than liquids...

    we have seen studies that show the number of meals has little effect

    what can we do?

    what should we not bother with?

  26. #25
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Holto

    what diet strategies (if any) effect Energy Burned ?

    speculate with me people?

    we know eating solid foods requires more cals to digest than liquids...
    I agree but you are still just changing the calories out part of the equation. You could probably get away with eating more protein and fiber rich foods as opposed to shakes and high GI carbs. Although I would not think this is going to make a significant difference in the grand scheme of things.

    Although it is definitely something to look into.

    what can we do?
    Monitor calorie intake and make changes according to the results that are observed

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