The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

It’s no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Steak and Eggs pusher's Avatar
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    Hypothetical question....

    As I understand it, simplistically, HIIT stimulates fat loss because lactic acid builds-up during the sprint. This is metabolised and serves as a substrate in fat oxidation. The increased concentration of substrates in the oxidation reaction, increases the rate of the reaction = increased fat burning.

    Now, my question is this:

    Given that weight training is anaerobic,(ie. lactic acid build-up) do you think it is possible to perform a weight training form of HIIT? Not a muscle building routine specifically, but a way to train with weights that can produce similar results as conventional HIIT.

    In my mind I picture things like farmers walks. I know another member posted that he had experienced fat loss, as well as muscle gain by training in an unconvetional manner doing things like farmers walks and kettlebell excercises. After some consideration, I can only imagine that this type of training involves in some way something similar to HIIT with weights.

    Similarly, consider those times when you trained extremely hard with weights, so much so that you almost puked and could barely walk. Now, doesn't that experience sound a lot like the feeling after a good HIIT session?

    I would be very happy to hear your thoughts on this. Any imput is greatly appreciated.
    "The highest reward for man's toil is not what he gets for it, but what he becomes by it." -John Ruskin 1819-1900

    "He who fights monsters should see to it that in the process, he does not
    become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into
    you." - Nietzche

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  3. #2
    Senior Member unshift's Avatar
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    ah, finally! PowermanDL and i discussed this already in the PL/Olympic forum

    basically: sure, why not? i'm sort of copying his idea of doing a few triples of power cleans + split jerks (i also do some hang cleans + push press) and calling it cardio. it's sure a hell of a lot more fun than running, and probably equally taxing

    at this point though, i can't attest to any results, though i'm sure he can. i'll let you know in a few weeks

  4. #3
    . Delphi's Avatar
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    I've never done farmers walks but I would assume the muscles getting the most strain are the forearm muscles. I would think you would want to do your HIIT-style workout with the biggest muscles possible for the greatest effect. Like quads, lats, traps, maybe abs or triceps.

  5. #4
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Simple yet effective.

    Deadlift
    Squat
    Bench Press
    Chin Up
    Shoulder Press

    Rest periods:60 seconds or less inbetween sets
    Reps: Experimnet, I've found that 12 reps is a killer, you think you're gasping for air during HIIT, try this.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  6. #5
    . Delphi's Avatar
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    Sounds brutal. How many cycles of that can you do in one workout? I would think after one, you're ready to quit.

  7. #6
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Try doing 3-5 reps of either the snatch (difficult) or clean & jerk (lethal) with 30-60 second rests, 65-70% max, for as many sets as you can.

    Before you pass out.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  8. #7
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Delphi
    Sounds brutal. How many cycles of that can you do in one workout? I would think after one, you're ready to quit.
    *** Round one was tough.
    Round two I called it quits. If you can do this for about 3-4 sets 3x's a week you'll be golden.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  9. #8
    Senior Member
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    Yes I think it would definitely work. Would I do it, I dont think so.
    I think if you are doing a serious lifting routine, which most of us here are, and you incorporated this as your cardio then I think you would be seriously comprimising your recovery.
    I also think you would hit the overtraining mark pretty soon.

    I think it would be excellent for a beginner who wants to lose weight and begin weightlifting. For them I think it would be a great way to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time

  10. #9
    The Truth
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    I don't know..... I'm usually tired in a similar manner after my workouts, both HIIT and weights. Of course my arms, chest, and shoulders aren't as burned as they are weight weights.

    I usually keep the rest times very low

    6-8, about a minute and a half
    9-12 - 1 minute
    12-25-30 seconds
    25+-15 seconds

    I also do a lot of supersets, sometimes I superset supersets with supersets, rest pausing, statics, partial reps, drop sets, sometimes I just do one giant stuff--no rest between exercises except the rest to change exercises, and tons of other stuff. The key for me is variety, I mix it up a lot.

    I don't really think one should wait until they're fully recovered for bodybuilding, strength yes, but not bodybuilding. So I workout each bodypart twice a week...
    I'm usually breathing hard plus I'm working my muscles very hard. It seems to be working for me.

  11. #10
    Senior Member Fenbay's Avatar
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    This is exactly what we did for football. We called them power explosions. If done right with the right amount of weight wind sprints have NOTHING on these things in terms of cardiovascular work. Not to mention the muscle benefits.
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  12. #11
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ftotti10
    Yes I think it would definitely work. Would I do it, I dont think so.
    I think if you are doing a serious lifting routine, which most of us here are, and you incorporated this as your cardio then I think you would be seriously comprimising your recovery.
    I also think you would hit the overtraining mark pretty soon.

    I think it would be excellent for a beginner who wants to lose weight and begin weightlifting. For them I think it would be a great way to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time
    *** Which method are you referring to?
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  13. #12
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    What exactly would qualify it as "overtraining"?

    (Either one)
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  14. #13
    Steak and Eggs pusher's Avatar
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    Overtraining is something I thought about too. I think he means that if you are doing a routine already, and try to do HIIT work with weights in place of cardio, say on off days for example, it could lead to overtraining. Noting this however, I am considering basing a routine explicitly on HIIT weight trainig, someting like Maki or PM suggested, focusing on core lifts, although, I wonder if it would be physically/practicaly possible to do a routine with low rest times at anywhere over 65% 1RM.
    Last edited by pusher; 07-16-2003 at 05:00 PM.
    "The highest reward for man's toil is not what he gets for it, but what he becomes by it." -John Ruskin 1819-1900

    "He who fights monsters should see to it that in the process, he does not
    become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into
    you." - Nietzche

  15. #14
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Why does it instantly become overtraining just because a barbell's in your hand instead of running on a treadmill?
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  16. #15
    fat and small Blood&Iron's Avatar
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    We tend to think of Sisyphus as a tragic hero, condemned by the gods to shoulder his rock sweatily up the mountain, and again up the mountain, forever. The truth is that Sisyphus is in love with the rock. He cherishes every roughness and every ounce of it. He talks to it, sings to it. It has become the mysterious Other. He even dreams of it as he sleepwalks upward. Life is unimaginable without it, looming always above him like a huge gray moon. He doesn’t realize that at any moment he is permitted to step aside, let the rock hurtle to the bottom, and go home.

    Parables and Portraits, Stephen Mitchell

  17. #16
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Hmmm.

    That's essentially saying that HIIT work on a treadmill doesn't carry those effects either, though.

    What this is espousing isn't exactly circuit training, either. Circuit training might get the heart rate up a bit, but it doesn't focus on the density of anaerobic work the way the protocol I outlined does.

    Though admittedly, it'd be a lot better for CV training if done over a given interval of time as opposed to a flat prescription of "sets." For fat loss though.....I think if you're doing it 3-4 times a week, it'd be more than enough.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  18. #17
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by pusher
    I wonder if it would be physically/practicaly possible to do a routine with low rest times at anywhere over 65% 1RM.
    *** Using over 70% of your 1RM is gonna be next to impossible to complete. I'd start using around 55% of your 1RM.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  19. #18
    Senior Member unshift's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ftotti10
    Yes I think it would definitely work. Would I do it, I dont think so.
    I think if you are doing a serious lifting routine, which most of us here are, and you incorporated this as your cardio then I think you would be seriously comprimising your recovery.
    I also think you would hit the overtraining mark pretty soon.

    I think it would be excellent for a beginner who wants to lose weight and begin weightlifting. For them I think it would be a great way to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time
    how about a person like me, who's been lifting for over a year? i'm doing this now (in place of my regular workout) and would consider myself serious and a non-beginner.

    you'll have to remember that not everybody is going to become a curl jockey looking to increase bicep peak or work their upper chests. i'm thinking of dropping isolation exercies pretty much completely out of my routine because they haven't really proven themselves to be as effective as this routine has

    also -- suggesting power cleans to a beginner is a very, very bad idea

  20. #19
    Toughest Man in the World Bruise Brubaker's Avatar
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    It rather looks like GPP work, which can be a form of cardio, good for health.

    It will increase your recuperation capabily, and is also closer to real world strength.
    I have a day in my routine where I do speed bench, jump squat, and then a couple sets of many reps (10 or more) of hang cleans+power press, this last exercise really leave me breathless. The main goal when doing such work is to increase the intensity (more weight/reps in shorter time, higher heart beatrate for a longer duration).

    With such movements, it is hard to overtrain and the effect is in fact the opposite of overtraining. Those guy who have a olympic lifting routine lift very heavy weights many days a week and they are not overtraining.

    Overtraining is overrated. For strength purposes, lifting more often is beneficial. You might like to read about synaptic facilitation.

    If you search about GPP you'll find a lot of exercises than can make you burn a helluva bunch of calories.

  21. #20
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    As pusher said I was speaking about doing this routine along with your normal weightlifting routine i.e. replacing your cardio with this type of training. This is what could lead to overtraining, ok overtraining seems to be a touchy thing around here, I think at best your recovery could be comprimised by doing this.

    But like I said previously and as pusher in considering doing, performing this type of training alone is a great idea and I think great benefits can be gotten from it.

    Why exactly is suggesting powercleans a bad idea for a beginner?
    Obvoiusly the beginner would be starting with just the bar or very light weight but why the fact that he a beginner comprimise his ability to learn.

  22. #21
    Senior Member unshift's Avatar
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    beginners need to learn basic lifts before complicated ones. when they're no longer beginners, then olympic lifts are great

    also olympic lifts don't cause as much hypertrophy as a normal BB routine and that's why it's harder to overtrain, since it uses the central nervous system more (or so i've read). i checked out some olympic routines and they go 4-5 days per week. sticking with a simple bench/DL/squat/clean routine as "cardio" could probably work out provided you weren't doing 1RMs and such, and like magnus said, probably helps out your recovery time provided everything is done correctly

  23. #22
    Ash "Money" Hegde Y2A's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Maki Riddington
    Simple yet effective.

    Deadlift
    Squat
    Bench Press
    Chin Up
    Shoulder Press

    Rest periods:60 seconds or less inbetween sets
    Reps: Experimnet, I've found that 12 reps is a killer, you think you're gasping for air during HIIT, try this.
    Is this to be done as cardio (HIIT) in addition to a routine (on off days?) or as your routine?
    "We fight our battles, we wage our wars, we settle the score, with honor and blood" - Atreyu

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  24. #23
    Steak and Eggs pusher's Avatar
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    True this does have similarities to both GPP work or some sort of circuit training, albeit what I am suggesting would be at a very high intensity level so as to promote lactic acid build up to the levels associated with convetional HIIT.

    I wonder though, supposing one follows a routine like Maki's, with very little rest, would it be possible to generate the effect of the lactic acid build-up to produce results similar to conventional HIIT with respect to fat burning?

    I would imagine there is a difference between what sprinting and doing squats does to your body. Power, you don't think that a routine like this in combination with a more convetional split routine could compromise recuperation and lead to OT?

    Also, do you suppose that this type of routine could be conducive to hypertophy at all?
    "The highest reward for man's toil is not what he gets for it, but what he becomes by it." -John Ruskin 1819-1900

    "He who fights monsters should see to it that in the process, he does not
    become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into
    you." - Nietzche

  25. #24
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Not sure exactly, but if the intensity was light enough, there'd be no difference in the energy system used wrt sprinting. So I guess that's a question you need to ask.

    I just find it funny that everyone here will jump on the sprint bandwagon so readily, but when the same concept is applied to a barbell exercise that will have the same training effect, the "overtraining" flag goes up.

    You also have to realize that those sets aren't designed to tax the muscles. They're designed to exploit the fact that they require a full-body effort and a corresponding increase in work output.

    In any event, if its done right, I see no reason it'd be any more or less a stimulus for overtraining than "normal" cardio or interval training cardio.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  26. #25
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Y2A


    Is this to be done as cardio (HIIT) in addition to a routine (on off days?) or as your routine?
    *** It is to be done as your routine. Cardio wise, I'd keep the sessions on the lower end of the scale if you insist on still doing it.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

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