The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
Latest Article

The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
More Recent Articles
Contrast Training for Size
By: Lee Boyce
An Interview with Marianne Kane of Girls Gone Strong
By: Jordan Syatt
What Supplements Should I be Taking? By: Jay Wainwright
Bench Like a Girl By: Julia Ladewski
Some Thoughts on Building a Big Pull By: Christopher Mason

Facebook Join Facebook Group       Twitter Follow on Twitter       rss Subscribe via RSS
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 76 to 94 of 94
  1. #76
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Kitchener, ON
    Posts
    11,341
    Originally posted by MixmasterNash
    However, one of the first signs of a psuedo-science is a refusal to particpate in mainstream scientific structures and particularly the creation of their own scientific community.
    THis is not the case. DCs are working with MDs, biologists, physiologists and others, collaboratively, to investigate the effects and synergies of various forms of chiropractic.

    Dr. Donald Epstein, for instance, is working with the renowned Dr. Candace Pert, PhD, to investigate (among other things) the relationship between spinal tension, the release of said spinal tension through chiropractic, and the effect that these activities and states have on neuropeptides. This is a single example but there are literally hundreds more examples of completed and ongoing studies.

    Clearly some people are engaging in pseudoscience under the label of chiropractic... I agree with you there. But to tar and feather the entire profession with the same brush is a gross and unfair generalization.

  2. #77
    hmm, I like to be big!!!
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,236
    lol the reason i didn't post is because I was out, I'm sorry I can't sit around on wannabebigforums all day long, I mean a 23 thousand post count says a lot doesn't it? In fact I spent much more than I wanted to today in an attempt to at least get you guys to question yourselves. Believe it or not I questioned myself when you guys challenged me and provided sources.

    I don't get why everyone is getting so pissed off about my attitude, I'm only matching what I've been shown. Anyone who's unbiased can see I'm very humble in my first post until everyone who's a freaking chiropractor nuthugger starts flaming me because I decided to question them. Then I say I wish chiropractors would get more involved in science, o but wait, what do I get from the "mature" and "grown" adults? O yeah more insults. Then while I'm out the "adults" make more insults for me in a unfunny sarcastic fashion. LOL @ my attitude being disgraceful. I'm still waiting for an experiment to prove me wrong.

    Sorry homeyield, I didn't see your post because of everyone else's flaming and blind chiropractor nuthugging. Thank you for providing real evidence from what I think is an unbiased source even though you feel the need to flame me too why I have no idea. I looked at the source, they say what I've been saying the whole time, those with real chiropractic care feel better than the other ones, but the actual effect despite their best efforts couldn't be measured in anyway. Which makes me doubt how blind this study was.

    "Williams et al published the results of a study in the BMJ that suggested that manipulation speeds the resolution of acute back pain, but may in itself not affect the long term outcome."

    The long term effect showed there was no evidence either way. If the study can be found, (usually with these types of studies there is a price), it'll be good for both of us to look at. I tried to find it myself but couldn't.
    Last edited by nejar462; 07-31-2003 at 10:19 PM.
    Chris Mason is my master.....

    American cars are like fat people, sure, they have a lot of power, but they're not built well, and they have all that useless weight, plus they make both make funny noises.

    feel free to aim me, nejar462 im on a lot. Don't know much to warn you dudes, but im good at conversations.

    Belial in reference to Ronnie Coleman, "Some people say he still has blood in his steroid stream, but I doubt it. Gas isn't one of the side effects, but that massive bloated overly muscular freak of nature circus sideshow appearance might be what tips most people off."

  3. #78
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    7,769
    Originally posted by nejar462
    but the actual effect despite their best efforts couldn't be measured in anyway. Which makes me doubt how blind this study was.
    I think the real problem with trying to get real data is measuring pain and its alleviation. Its extremely tough to say how pain varies from person to person and how much one experiences more than the other.

    With diseases and other things, you can say that medicine either gets rid of it or it doesn't. With pain, how can you tell?
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  4. #79
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Kitchener, ON
    Posts
    11,341
    Originally posted by HomeYield


    I think the real problem with trying to get real data is measuring pain and its alleviation. Its extremely tough to say how pain varies from person to person and how much one experiences more than the other.

    With diseases and other things, you can say that medicine either gets rid of it or it doesn't. With pain, how can you tell?
    HY: Not even then . . . sure a drug may make you feel better by blocking the pain, but does it CURE the disease? In some cases yes (i.e. antibiotics vs bacteria). In all cases? No. In a lot of cases as well, there are variable responses to medicines or drugs... pharmacology presents itself as an exact science but the reality is that between the chaotic and variable nature of the human body, the interreactions of newly-introduced drugs with what the person is already taking, what they eat, or a hundred other things, there's no guarantee that the drug will help or even hurt more than it helps.

    For a scary wake up call, do a little research on adverse drug reactions as a cause of death.

    There are also some studies using EMGs and thermographic sensors and GSR to measure the physiological 'signs' of pain. The current study I mentioned with Epstein and Pert is another neat one in this regard, looking at the relationships of chiro to neuropeptides. Given some of the work Epstein is doing that interrelates spinal health/tension, musculature and mental/emotional state, I'm really keen to see the results/outcomes.

  5. #80
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    7,769
    Cal: Well, maybe that was a rough example. My girlfriend is currently working on getting her doctorate degree in pharmacy. She learns best by teaching so guess who gets to be the pupil. I don't know nearly as much as I would like but what you said makes sense.

    I'm almost apt to say that these could be more closely related or at least parallels in some sense.
    but the reality is that between the chaotic and variable nature of the human body, the interreactions of newly-introduced drugs with what the person is already taking, what they eat, or a hundred other things, there's no guarantee that the drug will help or even hurt more than it helps.
    The same could be said here for chiropactors. Some might help, probably more often than not, but there are those times when it could be bad if everything isn't taken into full and careful consideration.

    There are also some studies using EMGs and thermographic sensors and GSR to measure the physiological 'signs' of pain.
    That's what I was wondering about. I mean, we know what causes pain but do those show variances between different people and is an absolute measurement? That's the problem. The hardcore anti-chiro people will want to see hard proof when its going to be very difficult to analyze. There will definitely be some progress made but its pretty tough to gauge it.
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  6. #81
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    23,191
    Originally posted by nejar462
    ~~~~I'm sorry I can't sit around on wannabebigforums all day long, I mean a 23 thousand post count says a lot doesn't it?


    ~~~~I don't get why everyone is getting so pissed off about my attitude,

    ~~~~Anyone who's unbiased can see I'm very humble in my first post until everyone who's a freaking chiropractor nuthugger starts flaming me because I decided to question them.

    you're getting flamed, primarily because you were talking out of your ass. as i said before it was apparent from your very first ever so humble comment that you have no idea how chiropractics practice and most likely were regurgitating someone else's veiwpoints.

    then you started getting flamed for talking about gnomes and fairy dust or some other crap.


    now you're pretty much getting flamed for being a jackass.

    you might wanna quite while you are ahead.
    A little learning is a dangerous thing...

    Live Dangerously! Learn a Little!


    Dude, did Doogie Howser just steal my fucking car?

  7. #82
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Posts
    8,668
    Mix - thanks for presenting your viewpoint.

    HY brings something up - that some chiros do more harm than good. If you reference my earlier post - a good chiropractor knows his liimitations, and will not treat someone who needs attention from an MD.

    There are indeed some chiros who believe and act as if they can cure everything. They are wrong.

    From here out - if anyone can not participate in this discussion maturely, don't bother participating. It will save me the time of deleting your posts.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  8. #83
    aka Boobalowski raniali's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    somewhere over the rainbow
    Posts
    1,955
    i just want to bring up a point about "science" -- basically that people rely a little too much on it. science is a process of understanding and, as such, is incomplete in itself. i am a chemist, in graduate school and have spent several years working on in R&D at a NASA facility; i think i know something about 'science' and its process.

    in most cases, conventional science begins to 'research' (i.e., understand) a topic, issue, process, or the like because it was first observed. in rare cases (like x-rays and penicillin) does science 'discover' something new. for centuries, people would chew on willow tree bark to alleviate pain. perhaps it worked because everyone just believed it did; you know, the placebo effect. would you chew on willow tree if you had a headache if science hadn't 'proved' it worked? well, thanks to all the millions of people who had enough faith in what worked prior to conventional science's approval, we now have aspirin. because it comes in a little white tablet, you now feel secure in using it. go figure.

    anywho, the point is that just because 'science' hasn't given you enough proof doesn't mean the treatment isn't effective. if chiropractic care was merely the stuff of witch doctors and crazy faith healers, then i highly doubt money-hungry insurance companies would be including it in their plans (heck, i don't even have a co-pay when i go!) and their practices are becoming more recognized as effective treatment for many issues. i don't know about you, but i would much rather have someone externally fix my back instead of undergoing back surgery. count your blessings you don't have constant back pain -- it is NO FUN! perhaps when you have an injury or just get older and feel the effects of degenerative disks, you might swallow your pride and visit a chiro and be grateful that you have relief even if science didn't say it was ok.
    Size is SEXY!

    As long as there's raniali nudity, its all good. -- PMDL, my idol
    My God. I wish, if only for a day, i had hooters like that to play with. -- TCD, my other idol
    It is as stable as my mindset around your breasts. -- robboe
    Good god raniali....you have an amazing physique. -- JustinASU
    Whenever raniali posts in a thread, somebody is bound to get aroused, thats just the way it is. -- Y2A


    ~Anything worth doing at all IS worth doing well.~
    ~You all laugh because I am diFFereNt; I laugh because you're all the same.~
    ~Have no fear of perfection; you will never reach it. -- Salvador Dali, Diary of A Genius~

  9. #84
    bone crusher
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    0
    well said ali!

    go chemistry

  10. #85
    hmm, I like to be big!!!
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,236
    Homeyield-The study showed those with chiropractic care felt better sooners, thats for sure, but what it doesn't show any actual changes that could be observed, which makes me think this really is just a placebo effect.

    Callahan-Sorry about insulting you it was wrong i'll admit it. If you can post some links to these studies I'd be really be happy to read some stuff and talk to you about it, my level of education is only high school, not graduate so I might not be able to keep up. BTW doesn't it bother you the chiropractic community doesn't actively seek out the 'quacks' to put a stop to their malpractice?

    Raniali-As you can see I really believe in science, while it is a slow process it is a certain one. Many discoveries are verified with science and found through science as well. (Your point about willow bark holds true, but now that aspirin comes in the form it does its more potent and easier to use. Go figure science made something better.) I see your point, but I'd rather wait for science to prove it works unless it becomes a VERY desperate situation. FYI both of my parents had serious back problems, through proper diet, exercise, changing their sleeping positions, they got much better without chiropractice care. (I know, I just made a whole speech about anecdotal evidence). In fact many doctors we're close to said the same thing I did, its not based on science so don't use it.

    About insurance companies, since chiropractic care is cheaper than MD care it makes sense doesn't it? Thats not a sign of effectiveness, its just a sign insurance companies know how to save money.

    Tryska-Please look at Paul Stagg's post, they do us a big favor allowing us all to post on wannabebigforums for free, and some use this privelege a whole lot, maybe you should be more courteous.
    Last edited by nejar462; 08-01-2003 at 01:59 PM.
    Chris Mason is my master.....

    American cars are like fat people, sure, they have a lot of power, but they're not built well, and they have all that useless weight, plus they make both make funny noises.

    feel free to aim me, nejar462 im on a lot. Don't know much to warn you dudes, but im good at conversations.

    Belial in reference to Ronnie Coleman, "Some people say he still has blood in his steroid stream, but I doubt it. Gas isn't one of the side effects, but that massive bloated overly muscular freak of nature circus sideshow appearance might be what tips most people off."

  11. #86
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    23,191
    if that was another jab on post counts nejar, you might want to read paul's message again.
    A little learning is a dangerous thing...

    Live Dangerously! Learn a Little!


    Dude, did Doogie Howser just steal my fucking car?

  12. #87
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    7,769
    Originally posted by nejar462
    Homeyield-The study showed those with chiropractic care felt better sooners, thats for sure, but what it doesn't show any actual changes that could be observed, which makes me think this really is just a placebo effect.
    Are you talking about actual movement of bones and muscles or something to make it feel better shown by using x-rays and such? What do you mean by changes? Would feeling better not be changes? I guess, I'm just a little lost by what you would like to see.


    *edit to make it a little bit more clear which I think I failed at.
    Last edited by WillKuenzel; 08-01-2003 at 02:07 PM.
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  13. #88
    aka Boobalowski raniali's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    somewhere over the rainbow
    Posts
    1,955
    Originally posted by nejar462
    In fact many doctors we're close to said the same thing I did, its not based on science so don't use it.
    that was the ENTIRE point of my aspirin example -- it was NEVER based on science ... only historical use. yes, science made it better, more potent -- but it was still effective beforehand. i can understand your skepticism, but your arguments are becoming circular.
    Size is SEXY!

    As long as there's raniali nudity, its all good. -- PMDL, my idol
    My God. I wish, if only for a day, i had hooters like that to play with. -- TCD, my other idol
    It is as stable as my mindset around your breasts. -- robboe
    Good god raniali....you have an amazing physique. -- JustinASU
    Whenever raniali posts in a thread, somebody is bound to get aroused, thats just the way it is. -- Y2A


    ~Anything worth doing at all IS worth doing well.~
    ~You all laugh because I am diFFereNt; I laugh because you're all the same.~
    ~Have no fear of perfection; you will never reach it. -- Salvador Dali, Diary of A Genius~

  14. #89
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Posts
    7,850
    Aye.

    Science is really nothing more than the quantification of observed phenomena.

    So if you're observing something that works, the role of science is to say "lets figure out why" instead of saying "it can't be done."
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  15. #90
    Still Plugging Away -TIM-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Iowa, USA
    Posts
    4,590
    Originally posted by MixmasterNash
    ...Does chiropracty work? Doubtless it does for many people...
    How can you make that statement when the majority of people that actually go to a Chiropractor find relief?

    I think one thing that people overlook when it comes to your back is that when left untreated, it can become untreatable. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there are 4 stages that group the severity of the spines condition. Once your back is so badly deteriorated and out of place, which seems to start at stage 3, then a Chiropractor or any other Dr. can only correct the spine so far. Your body basically gets beyond having the ability to fully heal itself. So in those cases yes, somebody would not find full relief by going to a Chiropractor. But they can still correct the spine to a certain degree to provide some form of relief. So to say that this form of medical attention doesn't work, well it's not an accurate statement by any means.
    Best way to cheat on deadlifts...

    Stand there for a few minutes, then pace back and forth a lot, huff and puff, wait until everybody's looking. Approach the bar. Back off. Approach it again. Back off. Get some water. Chalk up. Approach the bar again. Then spray some more chalk around. Wait until people start losing interest. When nobody's looking, pick it a little off the floor, and slam it down. Jump up and yell "LIGHT WEIGHT BABY". Then give high fives all around. - Belial

  16. #91
    Still Plugging Away -TIM-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Iowa, USA
    Posts
    4,590

    Arnold and the Chiro

    I live in Davenport, IA, home of Palmer Chiropractic. This is, I believe, the 2nd or 3rd largest school of Chiropractic teaching in the world. One of my friends who is in film production does a lot of videos for Palmer. One of the videos they shot took place at a conference supporting Chiropractic care and athletics. And who was their guest speaker? Arnold. They have a 10 minute one-on-one interview where he talked about how important Chiropractic care has been in his life and the health benefits he's been able to enjoy as a result of regularly visiting a Chiro. I know that a few of you are reading this and thinking whoop-dee-doo. But, here's a guy who fully supports what we're debating about and I don't think many would question his opinions or personal experiences when it comes to anything physical. I think the bottom line that's being overlooked in this debate is that no matter what you think of Chiro's, they do help people feel better. That's a fact. Whether you consider them a real Dr., a quack, witch doctor, voodoo master or whatever, if they make people feel better, then what's the point of downing their profession?
    Best way to cheat on deadlifts...

    Stand there for a few minutes, then pace back and forth a lot, huff and puff, wait until everybody's looking. Approach the bar. Back off. Approach it again. Back off. Get some water. Chalk up. Approach the bar again. Then spray some more chalk around. Wait until people start losing interest. When nobody's looking, pick it a little off the floor, and slam it down. Jump up and yell "LIGHT WEIGHT BABY". Then give high fives all around. - Belial

  17. #92
    hmm, I like to be big!!!
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,236
    Tryska-LOL, ok your right maybe I got a little carried away. Sorry, still friends?

    ali- I dont understand why you think my arguments are circular. Ok time to make a recap of my point.

    Chiropractory as it currently stands is not based on science,(when i say based on science, I mean there's no real reason it should work, and there's no observable evidence that it does besides alleviation of pain), while many medical fields are. Chiropractors will benefit from moving away from pseudo science, and will benefit from becoming more scientific. Everyone should be skeptical of chiropractors (until the get scientifc backing) because what they do has no science backing it, and no tests so far have been able to prove it does anything other than provide relief from pain(which makes many people including me consider it as a placebo effect).

    Homeyield-Umm, I'm sorry, I dont get what you're asking. Cold hard facts are all I want and I'll go see a chiropractor and retract everything I said with a sincere apology. X-rays would be nice.

    Again if you find the studies that would make a great jumping off point.
    Chris Mason is my master.....

    American cars are like fat people, sure, they have a lot of power, but they're not built well, and they have all that useless weight, plus they make both make funny noises.

    feel free to aim me, nejar462 im on a lot. Don't know much to warn you dudes, but im good at conversations.

    Belial in reference to Ronnie Coleman, "Some people say he still has blood in his steroid stream, but I doubt it. Gas isn't one of the side effects, but that massive bloated overly muscular freak of nature circus sideshow appearance might be what tips most people off."

  18. #93
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    10,215
    Originally posted by Tim Nissen
    How can you make that statement when the majority of people that actually go to a Chiropractor find relief?
    I believe I said, "Does chiro work, doubtless it does for many people." Maybe my poor Internet English isn't working but let me rephrase: "There is no doubt that chiropractic works for many people." Meaning, "Yeah, I agree it works." Many vs. most is a different issue entirely.

    I do not take it as fact that DCs always make people feel better. Are the majority of visits successful? Of course, because the majority of vists are by repeat customers. Folks who don't get relief probably won't go back. I don't have any numbers, so I'm arguing my point based on my understanding of the philosophy of science.

    Nejar makes excellent points: I haven't seen much evidence that chiropractic care is significantly better than a placebo and theraputic massage. I'm still skeptical about the ideas of "alignment" or whatever. Chiropractic started with, has always had, and still does represent many pseudo-scientific concepts. I'm glad some of the ideas and being tested scientifically and hopefully better care for all will result.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  19. #94
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    108
    With such an honest and reputable background, who would ever criticise a practice as scholarly as chiropractic?

    chiropractic is probably turning into something legitimate, but its origins lie in quackery, plain and simple.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •