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Thread: A few questions as i begin.....

  1. #1
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    A few questions as i begin.....

    Well, I am getting back into lifting for the first time in quite some time. The first time was a half assed approach which didn't really give me the results i was looking for.

    I am 31 now and 6foot 1 inch and somewhat more patient I weigh 200lbs and am looking to hover around this weight while adding muscle and shedding some fat. My last bf measure was around 24% which is too high for my liking. Recovering from a foot injury and now i am fully healed and able to lift/run again. What i am looking to do , is transform my body into a 190lb 8-10% bodyfat machine by summer 2004. I realize this will take some time and i plan on using WBB routine #1 for starters. Is it realistic for me to achive this goal? I have been working on my diet and will post it later , but for the most part its pretty easy for me to follow something.

    so i have a few questions today, and after some replies will likely have more/different questions tomorrow.

    1) Is it ok to work out in the morning , and then do cardio after work in the evenings? Or is it better to do my whole workout all at the same time. Yes i understand the concept of weights first and cardio second.

    2) I am eating roughly 3000 calories a day , to reach my goal stated above, do i need to add/subtract calories, and/or is it better for me to bulk as much as possible for the next 9 months and then cut for 3 months?

    3) I am canadian, don't take any supplements other than Extreme Power Whey...is this a good brand? Anyone familliar with it? I am almost out and will need to buy more whey of some sort.

    4) can i buy dextrose for my postwork out shake at the same kind of store (Genesis Nutrition) or do i have to order it online etc? Same with creatine. I have never taken it before, i keep hearing about it, but i am unsure if i can buy it or if i have to purchase it over the net? Sorry it sounds dumb but i may as well ask

    5) I like to do cardio...... for my goals is doing cardio 5 times a week too much ? I like to hike up a mountain (45 min 2800m) straight up or jog 10k in about the same time frame.

    Appreciate any advice someone can give me and i look forward to creating a journal and sharing my experiences with you guys/gals
    I'm the kind of guy who likes to eat cereal in the morning while watching tv in my undershorts.
    -Roger Clemens

  2. #2
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Re: A few questions as i begin.....

    Originally posted by Fenway
    I am 31 now and 6foot 1 inch and somewhat more patient I weigh 200lbs and am looking to hover around this weight while adding muscle and shedding some fat. My last bf measure was around 24% which is too high for my liking. Recovering from a foot injury and now i am fully healed and able to lift/run again. What i am looking to do , is transform my body into a 190lb 8-10% bodyfat machine by summer 2004. I realize this will take some time and i plan on using WBB routine #1 for starters. Is it realistic for me to achive this goal? I have been working on my diet and will post it later , but for the most part its pretty easy for me to follow something.
    That would really depend on a variety of factors, but at 200lbs. 24% bf you have ~152lbs. of LBM. To reach you goal you would have to put on a good amount of muscle and shed a good bit of bf. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to discourage you in any way, but I think smaller goals would be better while keeping a long term goal in mind. IMO I would first concentrate on lowering your bf% and then once you get down to a lower bf% you could concentrate on increasing LBM.

    1) Is it ok to work out in the morning , and then do cardio after work in the evenings? Or is it better to do my whole workout all at the same time. Yes i understand the concept of weights first and cardio second.
    That will be fine, but remember to take in some sort of pre-workout shake/meal before training. You don't want to train first thing in the morning on an empty stomach.

    2) I am eating roughly 3000 calories a day , to reach my goal stated above, do i need to add/subtract calories, and/or is it better for me to bulk as much as possible for the next 9 months and then cut for 3 months?
    IMO I would decrease daily cals in small increments each week until you are losing 1-2lbs. per week, so as to decrease your bf%. Bulking at your current bf% would not be wise IMO because when bulking you should expect to gain some fat, which would just cause you to end up dieting longer when cutting time comes around. Dieting for extended amounts of time increases your chance of losing LBM. Also when bulking at a higher bf% you have a greater chance of gaining fat than if you were bulking at a lower bf%.

    3) I am canadian, don't take any supplements other than Extreme Power Whey...is this a good brand? Anyone familliar with it? I am almost out and will need to buy more whey of some sort.
    I am not familiar with that specific brand, but I have yet to see much of a difference between various whey products, other than some taste better than others. I believe there is a thread about Canadian supplement companies in the supplement forum.

    4) can i buy dextrose for my postwork out shake at the same kind of store (Genesis Nutrition) or do i have to order it online etc? Same with creatine. I have never taken it before, i keep hearing about it, but i am unsure if i can buy it or if i have to purchase it over the net? Sorry it sounds dumb but i may as well ask
    You should be able to purchase dextrose at a store that sells home brewing supplies, and I would imagine that you can purchase the creatine at the same store as you purchase you whey protein.

    5) I like to do cardio...... for my goals is doing cardio 5 times a week too much ? I like to hike up a mountain (45 min 2800m) straight up or jog 10k in about the same time frame.
    IMO 5 times a week would be too much since you are just getting back into training, but you could work your way up to 5 times per day. I would recommend varying intensity, duration, and type of cardio.

    Best of luck

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    Bradley, thanks for the responses i do have a couple of questions.

    1) i am a little confused about the shedding and then bulking only to shed again. Granted i have a spare tire right now, but if i am blasting cardio and watching my diet like a hawk and now about ot add a weight lifting program to my routine, surely i will lose some weight even eating 3k calories a day and yet pack on some muscle? Isn't 3k calories on 200lbs more like a maintenance diet? If so, perhaps i misunderstood "maintenance" to include working out..... perhaps a bit of clarification for this thick headed guy over here

    2) Thanks for pointing me in the right direction on the Canadian supplements thread. Could you tell my why dextrose (which is a form of sugar isn't it?) is better than say fruit juice for a postwork out shake ? I am a bit confused on this as well.

    3) About working out in the mornings and then heading off to work. Pre shake, post shake, then i still need to have a big carb meal with protein right. Seems real early in the morning to be having beans and rice ? How does this skew my other meals for the rest of the day? Its like i would be eating my dinner at 9am-930 instead of eating my dinner at 930 pm. For some reason , this seems to disrupt the regular pattern of most of my other meals?

    4) Should i be focussing on more reps or more weight at this point in my workouts. Keep in mind that i am just getting back into the weight part so it will take time to get comfy with all the bars and exercises. I am thinking more reps myself.

    Here is my diet for the week....yes, its the same everyday this week...next week i will change it slightly as i may move my workouts around. Pls critique and let me know whats missing/needs improvement etc.

    8AM-830
    2 large HB eggs
    1 c dry quick oats
    1 c Blueberries (frozen or fresh)
    1 c skim milk
    546 cals
    12g fat
    84g carb
    28g protein

    10am-1030
    3oz chicken breast
    2 slices WW bread
    1 tsp mayo
    2 oz lowfat chedder
    1 orange
    465 cals
    16g fat
    42g carb
    39g protein

    1230pm-100
    2c shreaded organic greens (no iceburg lettuce here)
    1c chopped cuke
    1 can tuna
    1 tbsp olive oil
    1 apple
    427 cals
    16g fat
    27g carb
    45g protein

    230pm-245
    1c skim milk
    1 scoop whey
    1 banana
    1 tbsp flax oil (soon to be fish oil i think)
    3 egg whites
    479 cals
    15g fat
    37g carb
    51g protein

    I think this shake is too early as i don't workout until 415pm at the earliest these days . I should probably take it when i get home at 4pm and then immediately go to the gym..what do you guys think?

    415-545 workout with weights and half hour of cadio

    6pm post workout shake
    1c OJ
    1 scoop whey
    3 eggwhites (dont think i need 2 scoops of whey?)
    293 cals
    1g fat
    29g carb
    43g protein

    730-800pm Dinner
    14fl oz heinz baked beans
    1/2c cooked brown wild rice
    614 cals
    3g fat
    115g carbs
    31g protein.

    now this is what i am doing this week, going to start a journal, but pls critique this diet for me.

    my totals for the day are as follows ( i used fitday and of course modded a few things due to serving sizes etc )

    2824 cals
    63g fat
    334g carbs
    236g protein

    thanks in advance guys!!!
    I'm the kind of guy who likes to eat cereal in the morning while watching tv in my undershorts.
    -Roger Clemens

  4. #4
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    as a Canadian lad here is how I make my post w/o shake

    Interactive makes a product called glycocarb

    1.5 Kilos is 15 canadian and it's pure maltodextrin

    then you go to the Bulk Barn (I'm not sure if you have these on the west coast) to get dex for 80cents/lb

    the Glycocarb is flavoured so you just mix it 50/50 with the dex

    fructose (fruit sugar) tends to go directly to the liver so if you take just fructose post w/o you are starving your muscles

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    Thanks Holto, i am heading over to a vitamin/supplement store today to see what i can find.....i will take those names with and see if they have what i am looking for.

    i assume it comes in vanilla, i have yet to try anything chocolate that i like
    I'm the kind of guy who likes to eat cereal in the morning while watching tv in my undershorts.
    -Roger Clemens

  6. #6
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    the Glycocarb is available in fruit flavours only

    for this reason I drink my carbs and protein in separate shakes

    as for protien it's generally more difficult to find a good tasting vanilla

    some brands I like (I'm a cheap bastard)

    PVL makes a product called whey MAXX that is cheap, tasty very low in carbs and low in artificial sweetners

    Interactive makes some good protein powders also

    if you don't have the Bulk Barns out there ANY home brew supply shop carries dex

    Bulk Barn is also a great place for nuts and seeds, natty PB etc...

    The Fitness Industry is a 1 billion dollar industry.
    --Dairy Queens Blizzard pulls in 3/4 of a billion.
    --------------We are the elite.------------

  7. #7
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Fenway
    1) i am a little confused about the shedding and then bulking only to shed again.
    This thread should help clarify my reasoning.
    http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...threadid=34540


    Granted i have a spare tire right now, but if i am blasting cardio and watching my diet like a hawk and now about ot add a weight lifting program to my routine, surely i will lose some weight even eating 3k calories a day and yet pack on some muscle? Isn't 3k calories on 200lbs more like a maintenance diet? If so, perhaps i misunderstood "maintenance" to include working out..... perhaps a bit of clarification for this thick headed guy over here
    As far as your calorie intake goes you will have to determine that for yourself. The best way to determine this would be to increase/decrease daily cals in small increments each week until you are gaining/losing the desired amount of weight each week.

    While it is possible to gain muscle and lose bf at the same time, I think you will see better results concentrating on one or the other. Granted since you are just getting back into training the probability that this will occur is greater. Either way I still recommend creating a small calorie deficit, while concentrating on losing a small amount of weight each week. You could possibly add a little LBM in the process for the reasons stated above.

    2) Thanks for pointing me in the right direction on the Canadian supplements thread. Could you tell my why dextrose (which is a form of sugar isn't it?) is better than say fruit juice for a postwork out shake ? I am a bit confused on this as well.
    Fruit juice contains a significant amount of fructose which would not be ideal post workout, because fructose preferentially refills liver glycogen. That is not to say that a small amount of fructose would not be beneficial, but you would not want to obtain all of your post workout carbs from fruit juice.

    Dextrose/maltodextrin will refill both muscle and liver glycogen which is why it is recommended post workout.

    3) About working out in the mornings and then heading off to work. Pre shake, post shake, then i still need to have a big carb meal with protein right. Seems real early in the morning to be having beans and rice ? How does this skew my other meals for the rest of the day? Its like i would be eating my dinner at 9am-930 instead of eating my dinner at 930 pm. For some reason , this seems to disrupt the regular pattern of most of my other meals?
    Well I would recommend consuming your pre/post shake as you mentioned above and then having a whole food meal ~90 minutes later. There is nothing that says you have to have beens and rice, and if it is breakfast time you could always go with oats or some sort of whole grain cereal. Throw in a few whole eggs/egg whites and you have yourself a meal.

    As far as the rest of your meals go just eat them as scheduled for the remainder of the day. These meals should contain enough protein and fat (EFAs) to meet your daily needs and you can fill in the rest of the cals with carbs.

    4) Should i be focussing on more reps or more weight at this point in my workouts. Keep in mind that i am just getting back into the weight part so it will take time to get comfy with all the bars and exercises. I am thinking more reps myself.
    I think you should focus on progression, whether it be more reps with the same weight or increased weight. You might also want to post this question in the training forum, or run a search as this would be more training related.

    230pm-245
    1c skim milk
    1 scoop whey
    1 banana
    1 tbsp flax oil (soon to be fish oil i think)
    3 egg whites
    479 cals
    15g fat
    37g carb
    51g protein

    I think this shake is too early as i don't workout until 415pm at the earliest these days . I should probably take it when i get home at 4pm and then immediately go to the gym..what do you guys think?
    IMO that shake would be too large to consume immediately before training and you might run into some stomach discomfort training on a full stomach.

    I would recommend a pre-workout shake that contains ~25-35g of carbs (malto ideally) and ~10-15g of protein taken about thirty minutes before training in a small amount of water. You could eat your last whole food meal about 1.5-2 hours before taking your post workout shake, but I would be careful about making this meal too large. You don't want to have a stomach full of food while training.

    6pm post workout shake
    1c OJ
    1 scoop whey
    3 eggwhites (dont think i need 2 scoops of whey?)
    293 cals
    1g fat
    29g carb
    43g protein
    Post workout would be just like pre-workout except larger amounts of carbs and protein. IMO ~50g of carbs and ~25g or protein would be sufficient.

    730-800pm Dinner
    14fl oz heinz baked beans
    1/2c cooked brown wild rice
    614 cals
    3g fat
    115g carbs
    31g protein.
    If you are taking in pre/post workout shakes then I do not think you need that many carbs in the above meal. Just keep this meal pretty much like the rest of your meals throughout the day.

    2824 cals
    63g fat
    334g carbs
    236g protein

    I would decrease the protein a bit to ~1g per lb. of bw, up the fat intake to ~25% of daily cals, and include more omega 3 fats in your diet. If needed you could decrease the amount of carbs as well, but not at the expense of pre/post workout shakes.

  8. #8
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    so i had a weigh in in my local gym, Fitness World here in vancouver and got some other stats for myself as i begin my journey to purification...or something like that

    196lbs
    6foot 1 inch
    bmi is 25.9
    bf 16.4% much lower than i expected


    a bunch of other things , like being very well hydrated, due to my gallon and a half of water daily and my body fat has decreased 9% over the last 4-5 months due to some exercise and healthy eating...

    woot! were getting somewhere now.

    Bradley thanks for the ups on building and tearing down, the girls, yes i listened to the girls (weight trainers ) gave the same advice, but they told me that adding weights to my high cardio would allow me to eat even more calories and still shed some body fat, especially since my diet hovers around 21% fat intake or so.

    The thread on protein shakes and how people make them was very informative as well and i still need to pick up the malto.

    as far as omega 3's go, i am not sure which foods fall into this category, perhaps you could give me a few examples to start with.
    I'm the kind of guy who likes to eat cereal in the morning while watching tv in my undershorts.
    -Roger Clemens

  9. #9
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Fenway
    as far as omega 3's go, i am not sure which foods fall into this category, perhaps you could give me a few examples to start with.
    Supplementing with omega 3s would be the easiest IMO, but you can also incorporate oily fish (example salmon), flaxseeds, walnuts, and even green leafy vegetables have small amounts of n-3 fats.

    A fish oil supplement or oily fish would be the best due to the fact that they will supply EPA/DHA directly to the body where as plant sources contain ALA which has to be converted to EPA/DHA in the body. The conversion of ALA to EPA/DHA is not very effecient.

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    ok, i will go with the fish oil as it seems to be better for me than the flaxseed oil. Thankfully i only purchased a small bottle of flax oil.

    i still need to find matodextrin and probably some carb drink, although i am putting oatmeal into my shakes now so perhaps that will work just as well, along with some blueberries of course.

    i tried my first whey shake ala water after an intense cardio workout in about 83degree heat, 2.9k up a mountain...damm it was hot....oh and the whey tasted fine in water....

    can my preworkout shake be in milk or no? I am confused on this one....b/c i was thinkiing of loading up on 2c milk, 1/2 cup blueberries, 2 eggs and 1 cup oatmeal..... ic other people using variations of this and i can't remember if its post or pre workout.

    seems to me buying all these carb drinks on top of whey gets to be expensive and i can for the most part eat around the clock and still achieve the same/similar results?

    dunno what to do, Journal will start in two days........i can't wait!
    I'm the kind of guy who likes to eat cereal in the morning while watching tv in my undershorts.
    -Roger Clemens

  11. #11
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Fenway
    i still need to find matodextrin and probably some carb drink, although i am putting oatmeal into my shakes now so perhaps that will work just as well, along with some blueberries of course

    can my preworkout shake be in milk or no? I am confused on this one....b/c i was thinkiing of loading up on 2c milk, 1/2 cup blueberries, 2 eggs and 1 cup oatmeal..... ic other people using variations of this and i can't remember if its post or pre workout.
    You can mix your preworkout shake in milk if you like although I think the amount of food that you have outlined above would be too much for a preworkout shake/meal. You want to keep fat intake to a minimum pre/post workout so as to not slow digestion. IMO you could go with maybe a cup of milk (skim) and ~25g of carbs from oatmeal about 60 minutes before training. This should be plenty for preworkout.

    You could also use a small amount of whey and some oats in water as a preworkout shake instead of the milk.


    seems to me buying all these carb drinks on top of whey gets to be expensive and i can for the most part eat around the clock and still achieve the same/similar results?
    Yes, whole food will work just fine, and if you time it properly I think you will see excellent results. The main thing is to make sure that you are taking in enough carbs and protein, and the type of carbs/protein is more of a secondary issue.
    Last edited by bradley; 07-30-2003 at 03:55 AM.

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    Thanks Bradley..... appreciate the responses..

    being a natural runner, i was looking to lift weights in the morning, followed by some cardio, and then do some hiking in the evening, at least while summer is still around. Since i don't have much upper body muscle to speak of, will this be detrimental to my wanting to shed body fat? I will be using WBB#1 and still eating around 3k calories. Is this enough calories if they are healthy ones? or should i up it to 3500 to be on the safe side, or do you think i should drop it even more. I find myself, eating like i posted earlier in the thread, and its just enough to keep me going all day. But if i add weights, plus another cardio session will i exhaust myself calorie wise.

    the goal is 10% body fat, i am at 16.4 without lifting a weight, and doing some cardio....i would like to train and do cardio/exercise at a 15 hour per week clip...which is only 2h 10m a day. not too much for me at this moment.

    thanks again, and starting the first, come check out my journal....i am sure it will have a catchy name
    I'm the kind of guy who likes to eat cereal in the morning while watching tv in my undershorts.
    -Roger Clemens

  13. #13
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Fenway
    [B]being a natural runner, i was looking to lift weights in the morning, followed by some cardio, and then do some hiking in the evening, at least while summer is still around. Since i don't have much upper body muscle to speak of, will this be detrimental to my wanting to shed body fat?
    I do not believe that it would be detrimental to your goal of shedding bf, but you have to make sure that you are giving your body the nutrients it needs to support that level of activity.

    I will be using WBB#1 and still eating around 3k calories. Is this enough calories if they are healthy ones? or should i up it to 3500 to be on the safe side, or do you think i should drop it even more. I find myself, eating like i posted earlier in the thread, and its just enough to keep me going all day. But if i add weights, plus another cardio session will i exhaust myself calorie wise.
    As I stated above, you have to make sure that you are giving your body adequate amounts of nutrients that it needs for recovery, etc. If you find that you are losing weight too quickly or losing strength in the gym, then bump the cals up a little. You do not want to create a large calorie deficit through your diet while adding in a large amount of cardio. This would just end up being counterproductive IMO, and it would be better to start off with cals too high and work your way down as opposed to starting off with cals too low.

    the goal is 10% body fat, i am at 16.4 without lifting a weight, and doing some cardio....i would like to train and do cardio/exercise at a 15 hour per week clip...which is only 2h 10m a day. not too much for me at this moment.
    While I am not saying that the above it too much, just make sure that you are giving yourself adequate recovery time.


    thanks again, and starting the first, come check out my journal....i am sure it will have a catchy name
    I'll keep an eye out for it

  14. #14
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    Well, i just got back from Genesis Nutrition......

    picked up my fish oil, still going to finish off my flax too.....

    some more whey, but concentrate instead of the isolate as i was a bit budget conscious this time.

    some creatine and got a good deal on that

    and some glycocarb, and i think after talking to the dude in the store whom was really nice, that i finally understand the whole pre/post shake routine better now... (sorry bradley, i understood you to some degree but i guess just hearing it again in laymans terms drilled it home)

    Thanks to everyone for pushing me in the right direction
    I'm the kind of guy who likes to eat cereal in the morning while watching tv in my undershorts.
    -Roger Clemens

  15. #15
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    i have a question, if i need around 3k calories to maintain my weight...does this include my cardio and workouts?

    or is 3k calories to maintain for someone whom is active?

    i like fitday, but i find myself customizing all the foods i eat b/c their values are either off a bit or not of the source that i have???? anyone else notice this?
    I'm the kind of guy who likes to eat cereal in the morning while watching tv in my undershorts.
    -Roger Clemens

  16. #16
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Fenway
    i have a question, if i need around 3k calories to maintain my weight...does this include my cardio and workouts?

    or is 3k calories to maintain for someone whom is active?
    Well this would depend on the individual, and the best way to figure it out would be through trial and error. Just adjust your daily cals in small increments each week until you are gaining/losing the desired amount of weight each week. There is no one size fits all formula for daily calorie intake, seeing as how most formulas do not take into account bf%, activity level, metabolism, etc.

    If you think ~3000 cals is your maintenance level then start out eating that amount for the first week. After the first week you can weigh yourself and see if you are maintaining your current weight. If you lose weight then you know you need to increase cals a little and vice-versa if you gain weight.

  17. #17
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    am i calculating this correctly?

    its a custom food b/c fitday doesn't have the oats i use for my MRP shakes...

    their specs on the package

    nutritional info....

    on 30g 114 cals......

    now 30 grams is just over an ounce....so if i have a cup of this stuff and there are 8 ounces in a cup, does this mean that this is giving me 114x8 for calories just from the rolled oats alone???

    or am i doing the math wrong somewhere
    I'm the kind of guy who likes to eat cereal in the morning while watching tv in my undershorts.
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  18. #18
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Cereals, oats, regular and quick and instant, not fortified, dry
    NDB No: 08120 Nutrient Units 1 cup
    -------
    81 g
    Proximates
    Water g 7.128
    Energy kcal 311.040
    Energy kj 1301.670
    Protein g 12.960
    Total lipid (fat) g 5.103
    Ash g 1.539
    Carbohydrate, by difference g 54.270
    Fiber, total dietary g 7.938
    Sugars, total g 1.175

    Maybe that will help, but on average a cup of oats will contain ~300 cals. This could change based on the type or cut of the oat.

  19. #19
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    ok, then should i just use fitday for my foods and only customize my powders and oils?

    this is screwing me up trying to figure out caloric intake
    I'm the kind of guy who likes to eat cereal in the morning while watching tv in my undershorts.
    -Roger Clemens

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