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Thread: !!!NEW DATA!!! I'm Only Doing HIT From Now On!

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    !!!NEW DATA!!! I'm Only Doing HIT From Now On!

    Originally Posted At:

    http://strongerathlete.com/dec_28_01.html#fiber

    December 28 We here at StongerAthlete.com hope you and your family are enjoying a wonderful holiday and Bowl Game season!

    Intensity

    Without intensity a program is not very productive. As pointed out by Tim Swanger, Mike Bradley, and Steve Murray, Strength and Conditioning Coaches at the United States Military Academy, “You must place your muscles in a critical situation. The effort level must be maximum. Your brain will only recruit the minimum number of muscle fibers necessary to do the job.”

    Intensity has to be learned. Usually after a year of training the athlete will understand what an intense workout really is. A coach can identify it by looking at an athlete after a set of squats. If the athlete has to sit down a few minutes because of muscle exhaustion, they finally understand intensity. There are specific ways to teach intensity if a coach is not satisfied. This brings up the type of exercise performed. In order to train the fast twitch muscle fibers effectively and efficiently, the athlete must use a heavy weight and perform enough reps to trigger the strength process.

    Olympic lifts such as the power clean does not effectively train the fast twitch muscle fiber like a slow, controlled movement would. If a lot of momentum is put on the bar that means that the intensity of the exercise is reduced and thus not very effective. Momentum lifts take the stress off the muscle for a brief time during the repetition of an Olympic lift. This is what makes those exercises less intense.

    Why is intensity so important? As it will be pointed out below in our Fiber Recruitment comments, intensity triggers the fiber recruitment process. According to Matt Brzycki, Strength Coach Princeton University, “It is only when the intensity of activation is very great or when the Slow Twitch [fibers] are fatigued that the larger, more powerful fast motor units are brought into play.”

    StrongerAthlete.com Classic: Fiber Recruitment

    The time has come for us to revisit some fundamentals of a safe, productive, and efficient training program. As our readership grows we are receiving a lot of e-mails asking us to defend our views against using Olympic lifts to train traditional athletes. This article explains the Principle of Fiber Recruitment, which is a basic element in terms of developing the quick twitch muscle fibers. This article first appeared in December of 2001....

    Muscle fiber is recruited in a certain way during a set in any exercise. There are 4 types of muscle:


    To illustrate when an athlete trains to failure on the bench and happens to reach failure on the 8th repetition, the first 2 reps have trained the Type I fibers, the 3rd and 4th reps have trained the Type IIA fibers and so on.


    Matt Brzycki, Coordinator of Recreational Fitness and Wellness Programs, expresses a concern over the misconception that quick lifts can defy the fiber recruitment pattern. “It is believed that explosive movements [power clean, etc..] will somehow bypass the Slow Twitch fibers and target the Fast Twitch fiber population, which would be a clear violation of the orderly recruitment pattern suggested by Henneman’s Size Principle of Fiber Recruitment.”

    In an Olympic movement such as the power clean, Type IIB fibers do not get trained to the fullest extent because failure was not reached in any particular muscle. The momentum of the clean reduces the intensity of the exercise, which takes stress off the muscle never allowing the muscle fibers to get fully exhausted.

    Tim Swanger, Strength Coaches at the University of Cincinnati, Mike Bradley, former Strength Coach at Stanford University, and Steve Murray, Strength and Conditioning Coach at the University of Toledo, give a proper analogy of this principle. “As fatigue sets in on the playing field, you are gradually bringing more fibers into play. It could be during a long drive, the fourth quarter, or halfway through practice. If your training consists of a few heavy reps or stopping your exercise short of fatigue, you’ll eventually be using muscle fibers on the field that you didn’t strengthen in the weight room.”

    -Matt Bryzcki

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    Re: !!!NEW DATA!!! I'm Only Doing HIT From Now On!

    Originally posted by silles
    Matt Brzycki, Coordinator of Recreational Fitness and Wellness Programs, expresses a concern over the misconception that quick lifts can defy the fiber recruitment pattern. “It is believed that explosive movements [power clean, etc..] will somehow bypass the Slow Twitch fibers and target the Fast Twitch fiber population, which would be a clear violation of the orderly recruitment pattern suggested by Henneman’s Size Principle of Fiber Recruitment.”
    What, then, is moving the weight? Magic? Perhaps wishful thinking?

    Slow twitch fibers sure as hell aren't doing it. Brzycki is making a pretty critical error here; of course the slow-twitch fibers are firing, but they're not relevant to the movement. The fast-twitch fibers are the ones being targeted here, due to the characteristics of the movement.

    In an Olympic movement such as the power clean, Type IIB fibers do not get trained to the fullest extent because failure was not reached in any particular muscle. The momentum of the clean reduces the intensity of the exercise, which takes stress off the muscle never allowing the muscle fibers to get fully exhausted.
    And you need full exhaustion because? Sure, maybe if you're training for mass. But any other quality is largely neural. And exhaustion is counterproductive to that.

    Normally I'd just say ok, you're not doing in the gym what you're doing on the field, so he *might* have something of a point. But then we get this:

    Tim Swanger, Strength Coaches at the University of Cincinnati, Mike Bradley, former Strength Coach at Stanford University, and Steve Murray, Strength and Conditioning Coach at the University of Toledo, give a proper analogy of this principle. “As fatigue sets in on the playing field, you are gradually bringing more fibers into play. It could be during a long drive, the fourth quarter, or halfway through practice. If your training consists of a few heavy reps or stopping your exercise short of fatigue, you’ll eventually be using muscle fibers on the field that you didn’t strengthen in the weight room.”

    -Matt Bryzcki
    What kind of horrible strength coach would train the specific metabolic character of the sport in the weight room?

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    Powerman's intellectual penis is officially 12" long after this post.

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    Sean, what's with the constant hostility towards HIT?
    If you don't like it, don't do it. There are tons of people out there who have made great gains using HIT style training. Get over it.

    Powerman, there are a lot of strength coaches out there that employ HIT style training.
    Last edited by Neil; 09-15-2003 at 06:46 PM.

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    Mike Mentzer anally raped my mother whilst pouring sugar in my gas tank.

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    I feel stupider....

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    Hmmmm, this whole debate is very tough. Obviously intensity defined as a percentage of momentary ability is not the be all/end all to training as the above statements indicate. There are some massively big and strong people who never go to failure.


    That being said, here is an interesting tidbit from a physiologist:

    If you want to win an Olympic medal in the 100 meter dash, you had better be born with about 80% fast twitch fibers! Want to win the Olympic marathon? Put in an order for 80% slow twitch fibers in your quads. The fast twitch fibers benefit the absolute sprinter because they reach peak tension much faster than their slow twitch counterparts. Gram for gram, the two types are not different in the amount of force they produce, only the rate of force production. So, having a lot of fast twitch fibers only makes a difference when the time available for force production is very limited (milliseconds), like the brief time the foot is in contact with the ground during a sprint, or a long jump. It makes no difference to the powerlifter. In cycling, the only event that they are decidedly advantageous for is the match sprint, analogous to the track 100 meter dash, but with more anticipatory tactics and theatrics. For the pure endurance athlete, it is slow twitch fibers that are needed. These fibers give up lightning speed for fatigue resistance. Lots of mitochondria and more capillaries surrounding each fiber make them more adept at using oxygen to generate ATP without lactate accumulation and fuel repeated contractions, like the 240 or so in a 2000 meter rowing race, or the 15,000 plus in a marathon.




    What this is saying is that a slow twitch fiber generates as much force as a fast twitch (gram for gram). It is only the rate at which the fibers produce force that varies. This varience is on the level of milliseconds. Lifts take seconds, not milliseconds.

    So, is it very possible that Bryczki is correct is his fiber recruitment argument. The above statements certainly don't contradict Henneman's theory.

    Now, the question is what sort of fibers predominate the larger motor units which would be called upon for lifting high percentage of 1RM loads? Is there a norm, or does it vary dramatically amongst lifters?

    When you think about it, the whole thing does make sense with some empirical evidence. Olympic and powerlifts which involve heavy loads for low reps produce decidedly less hypertrophy than bodybuilding movements with lighter resistance and more reps. Fast twitch fibers are supposed to be those that exhibit a greater propensity for growth. According to Henneman's theory and the stuff I mentioned, the slow twitch fibers would be getting hit hard by the Olympics and powerlifts. The fast twitch fibers would be hit harder training to failure with greater reps. Bodybuilding routines do this and the exhibit greater hypertrophy....

    Interesting if nothing else...


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    The problem comes when you deal with the quality of the display of force.

    Henneman's principle only accounts for the sequence of recruitment as force in the muscle increases...in that sense, its quite correct to say that recruitment proceeds from slow to fast fibers, in general.

    But its a *big* jump to correlate that with a training effect based on rep range alone. If a heavy load is used for 3 reps, there is no way that slow-twitch fibers are dominant in that. Muscle biopsies of powerlifters and similar anaerobic athletes show more expression of MHC-IIa than anything else.

    Slow-twitch and fast-twitch is somewhat of a misnomer as that nomenclature is more accurately describing the force-generating capacity of the fibers, as opposed to the pure shortening velocity (which does play a role, mind you, but isn't the *only* factor). Slow-twich fibers don't have the ability to generate the force that fibers expressing the type II MHC isoforms can.

    Since the display of force and velocity are related, it only follows that using either end of the spectrum, or anywhere in the middle, would result in improved neural functioning...in scenarios of performance, the size and structure of the muscle is rarely the sole factor responsible.

    Additionally, as MU recruitment is load-dependent, I really find it doubtful that, when combined with their force-generating properties, type I dominant fibers are contributing to the load.

    Brzycki seems to recognize this fact in one context, yet forgets it almost immediately-- if the FT motor units engage to meet the demands of force imposed upon the muscle, why wouldn't they engage to create the impulse of a fast lift?

    Additionally, why does he ignore the specificity principle that he so often touts? If one wishes to be fast, it would seem logical that one would train fast, above and beyond the neurophysiological reasons.

    Neil: There are also a lot of strength coaches that don't know what the hell they're doing. Not a bash on anyone, just a fact of the matter.
    Last edited by PowerManDL; 09-15-2003 at 07:15 PM.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
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    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
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    Then there's simply the fact that Oly lifters, athletes, and bodybuilders have completely different goals and thus their respective training is much different. Athletic training includes momentum lifts like the power clean to train the body to work as a whole plus strength movements to increase the capacity of different muscle groups.

    There is no ONE TRUE WAY...how/what you train depends on your goals. i think most people would benefit more from just going to the gym and training consistently over the long-term and concentrating less on fussing about the "best" way to train.

    And if you're a world class athlete or competitor, you probably have someone to do all the theoretical stuff/workout design for you so you just have to go to the gym and lift the weights.
    Last edited by IceRgrrl; 09-17-2003 at 05:39 AM.

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