Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: If you didn't do Westside...

  1. #1
    . Delphi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,020

    If you didn't do Westside...

    If you were interested in improving your 1rm in the three lifts and you didn't want to do Westside, what kind of routine would you do?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    1,012
    3x3 or some type of periodization.
    Squat - 505
    Bench - 325
    Deadlift - 550
    Total - 1380@175

  3. #3
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Posts
    8,668
    I'd probably try either 3x3 or a soviet system
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  4. #4
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Posts
    7,850
    What parts of Westside would you not be doing?
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  5. #5
    . Delphi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,020
    I was doing an upper/lower split very similar to Westside during the late summer. It was periodized but I wasn't doing 1rms on heavy days. I also wasn't doing some of the accessory exercises.

    I did "real" Westside for the last two months- 1rms of exercises like GMs, SLDLs, pin squats, pin presses, floor presses, etc. I built a platform to put on my power cage that now lets me do hypers, reverse hypers, and GHRs. I was doing the real deal with speed bench presses, box squats, ab work, accessory exercises, etc.

    Last month was not a good regular month for me lifting- sick for 10 days, lost much of another week due to work. So I didn't make a lot of progress like I'd wanted, but I'm OK with that.

    Here's the problem. Some of you may have heard the vicious rumors that I'm an old man. I'll be 45 in March. I'm still younger than Tryska, but my joints don't have the recovery ability that I'd like. The 1rms proved to be too much for me. The inside of my left knee has had a pretty good tendinits for several weeks now, probably where the adductors attach. It doesn't seem to be a knee joint derangement. I think it's from pushing my feet together while doing reverse hypers. I don't think the GHRs helped, either. Elbows aren't doing so hot either. At least my shoulders didn't get screwed up.

    Also, it seems I do better working out with somewhat higher rep ranges. My quads are smaller since I haven't been doing squats regularly. The parts are better (hypers, reverse hypers, floor presses, etc) but the wholes haven't shown it yet.

    So, 1rms and me don't get along very well. I've thought about doing 3rms on heavy days instead of 1rms, or doing upper/lower using the accessory exercises I'm now able to do, or do some type of powerlifting routine I haven't done before.

    Why powerlifting? I don't have the genetics, baseline body habitus, or inclination to do bodybuilding. I like lifting and I do have the potential to put up some decent numbers for someone my age. Before October got screwed up I was up to 880 (at home, not at a meet). I hope to get the total up to 1000 sometime next year. At that point I plan on entering my first meet. Kinda cracks me up that my first meet will be in the Master's division.
    Last edited by Delphi; 11-05-2003 at 06:49 PM.

  6. #6
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Posts
    7,850
    Ok, so essentially you're dealing with A) joint issues, B) lagging bodyparts, and C) technique/strength issues.

    You could adopt the new thing I've been toying with which gets around all of those.

    Basically, its Westside-ish, but it incorporates some traditional straight-line periodization also.

    I've been basing it around the deadlift and bench; I simply started out with a weight there was no doubt I could get 8 reps with. Bear in mind that even with relatively light loads this can be brutal on squats/deads, but it gets the job done.

    From there, I adding 10 lbs per session (5 for bench), doing one set of 8 as opposed to the DE/ME work. The plan is when you stall, you go back 2-3 workouts to a lower weight and start working back up.

    I established some goals to meet. For the dead, it was 425x8. Bench I wanted 245x8. I started at 315 on the dead, which I could do 8 reps on any day of the week; same with 175 on bench.

    Once you get to a certain point, it becomes impossible to keep adding weight twice a week...so gradually you can start throwing in speed-type days. I dropped from doing the 8-rep work twice a week to once a week to once every ten days. Speed-oriented work (or simple off days) makes up the remainder. Bear in mind that speed-oriented work in this context includes everything from dynamic-effort ballistics to a few sets of 5-6 on a different lift to heavy partial-ROM work.

    After reaching my goals on the eight's, I'll switch to fives and do practically the same thing. Its a lot easier on the joints than doing 1-3RM's weekly, and it still allows helacious strength gains that can be exploited later on down the road.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  7. #7
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Posts
    8,668
    a) Are you using bands?

    b) How are your sleep, diet, and stress levels?

    I like Power's approach, especially if you are waiting to hit a particular goal before finding a meet to do. You'll get stronger - but it won't take as much of a toll on you, and it will probably better prepare you for more work.

    Based on your description, though - it might not be the 1RM stuff that's bothering you, or it might be the 1RM upper, but something else lower.

    For me (not nearly as old as you or Tryska, but still older than Powerman), Dynamic lower body work is much harder on me than the max effort work, and max effort upper body work is harder on me than dynamic. If I'm not using bands. When bands get thrown in the mix, DE work is far tougher on me than ME.

    The solution IF you want to stick with WSB (which, if it isn't working for you or is beating you up may not be the right option), is to use the ME work occasionally as recovery. Every third or fourth week for your ME squat or dead, do either higher rep work, skip the ME lift and just do assistance, drag the sled, or do some sort of conditioning work (medicine balls, sprinting, swimming, strongman event training). For Bench, every 3rd or 4th week, do high rep DB pesses to failure. Using triples instead of singles for som elifts may work for you as well, although I think triples can be harder on some lifts.

    Another option is to spread the 4 workouts over more days than 7. There is no rule that says you can't do MWF workouts like so:

    m: ME squat
    W: ME bench
    F: DE squat
    m: DE bench
    w: ME squat

    and so on.

    Also, you may want to take a different approach wiht your ME work. Most of the time, Westsiders seem to work ME untill they hit a real 1RM, or miss trying. Another option is to simply try to break a record.

    So, your 2 board press record is 275. The next time you do them, work up to 280, and stop. Even if you feel like you are good for more. The next time you do them, work up to 285. Your 1RM might be 300, but the important part is working over 90% and straining and breaking a record.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  8. #8
    . Delphi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,020
    Matt, I've done what you're describing in the past and it's worked pretty well for me. For leg days I would do squats each workout, increasing weight each time. Once I got to the point where I couldn't add weight each workout I went to a heavy/light rotation for legs so that I was squatting heavy every other workout. I'm going to do that for the time being to regain the leg strength I've lost over the past month or so. For the next month I'll be doing legs->upper push->legs->upper pull. I have about a month ahead of me before I have to start shutting down my two offices and moving to Mt Pleasant. When I get set up there in my new abode I'll switch over to something different. I was looking at the 3x3 articles in the archives at Deepsquatter.com last night.

    Paul,

    Are you using bands?

    No. I really had only a month of Westside experience under my belt before the disaster otherwise known as October came along.

    How are your sleep, diet, and stress levels?

    Worse than usual. Complete disruption of my entire life routine last month.

    I like Power's approach, especially if you are waiting to hit a particular goal before finding a meet to do. You'll get stronger - but it won't take as much of a toll on you, and it will probably better prepare you for more work.

    I think I do better with more squatting volume than traditional Westside calls for. I tried doing squats after the max rep exercise on ME days, but after working up to a 1rm on some kind of posterior chain exercise my squatting ability for that workout was not very good, as expected. I've thought about doing squats first and then doing the 1rm exercise, followed by the other assistance and abs exercises. What do you think about that idea?

    Based on your description, though - it might not be the 1RM stuff that's bothering you, or it might be the 1RM upper, but something else lower.

    My upper body has fared pretty well through all this. My 1rm bench isn't any lower now than it was before October, which is much more than I can say for squats. I haven't tested deadlifts, but I think they're probably doing OK, too. I think I'm not getting enough work coordinating getting in and out of the hole on squats lately. The "isolation" posterior chain exercises are gradually improving, but the squat is steadily deteriorating, weight-wise. I think I need to squat more.

    For me (not nearly as old as you or Tryska, but still older than Powerman), Dynamic lower body work is much harder on me than the max effort work, and max effort upper body work is harder on me than dynamic. If I'm not using bands. When bands get thrown in the mix, DE work is far tougher on me than ME.

    My son pointed out to me that I really started complaining about the inner knee soreness after I tried sumo deads as a max effort exercise. I think that's what started the knee problem, and the reverse hypers and hypers are keeping the inflammation going. Keeping the knees nearly straight while doing them puts quite a bit of static strain on the muscles around my knee joint.

    I'm also not sure if box squats are doing me much good. I squeeze hard and come out of the hole as fast as I can, doing doublets. My speed gradually decreases as I go through the nine sets, but doing these with 50% or so of my 1rm doesn't seem to be preserving my 1rm ability like I read about in one of David Tate's articles.

    I think for the time being I'm too deconditioned to be doing Westside. I think I need to get some strength and stamina back. I'll see what higher volume leg work (2-3 sets of 6-10 reps per workout, done every fourth day for now) does over the next 3-4 weeks. Things will get weird again in mid-December when I have to set up the new office and find a place to live in the new town.

    BTW it's looking like the wife and kids will have to stay put in Cleburne until the end of the school year, or my son will be two courses behind. Cleburne is on the trimester system and Mt Pleasant is on semesters. If my son doesn't take geography and chemistry during the third trimester the counselor said he won't get credit for an entire year of each. That means driving back to Cleburne every other weekend when I'm not on call. I'll definitely have to go with a MWF workout schedule with weekends off. Life was getting too boring, anyway.
    Last edited by Delphi; 11-06-2003 at 09:54 PM.

  9. #9
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Posts
    8,668
    I think I do better with more squatting volume than traditional Westside calls for. I tried doing squats after the max rep exercise on ME days, but after working up to a 1rm on some kind of posterior chain exercise my squatting ability for that workout was not very good, as expected. I've thought about doing squats first and then doing the 1rm exercise, followed by the other assistance and abs exercises. What do you think about that idea?
    I don't like it. I far prefer the idea of doing some squatting after the ME lift - thats something I'm toying with.

    I think there are two key issues:

    First - it sounds like some of this might correlate with the deterioration of your eating/sleeping habits and increase in stress levels. I think going to a MWF might be a good idea, just to get a little more rest.

    Second - I think you are on to something wiht the conditioning aspect. Again, this is something I'm dealing with, so I'm still figuring out what *I* should do. The approach I'm taking is going to be to conitnue ME/DE work as normal, perhaps more sets for DE (10 to 12 instead of 8). I wouldn't drop the DE %. Typically a less experienced lifter will want to do a higher % on DE day - you may want to wave your box squats from 60% to 70%. The remainder of the workout will become more focused on conditioning, posterior chain, and core.

    An example:

    Monday ME squat:
    Good morning (or whatever ME lift you are on. I'd do them for 2 to 3 weeks)
    Squat 2x15 or 1x20
    GHR
    pull thru
    incline situps
    maybe a shrug or something

    More sets than usual, and try to do them with less rest.

    Wednesday ME Bench
    Incline close grips (Again, whatever lift you are doing, 2 to 3 weeks)
    DB press, incline, or hammer strength
    tricep extension (60 reps)
    Row
    shoulder press

    Friday DE Squat
    Box squat (10-12x2 waving from 60% to 70% over 4 weeks)
    speed deads (cnventional, every other week)
    SLDL
    hypers
    pull down abs
    A shrug or something.

    Sunday DE Bench
    Bench press (10-12x3 @ 60%)
    close grips (heavy)
    extension
    Chin
    Face pulls

    On your dE squat/bench days, work up to a single or double over 80% every 2 to 3 weeks.

    Do some kind of cardio 3 times a week, and if you have access to medicine balls or a sled, use that to improve your conditioning and work capacity.

    You also might want to do some specific p/rehab for any joints that give you trouble.

    Slowly increase the amount of work you do over time

    There is also nothing wrong with mixing things up on the ME day and doing some higher rep work instead of a 1RM.

    That's the jist of what I'm doing to improve my conditioning now after having not lifted for 3 months.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  10. #10
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Posts
    7,850
    Originally posted by Paul Stagg
    I don't like it. I far prefer the idea of doing some squatting after the ME lift - thats something I'm toying with.

    Beat ya to it. I've been doing that for awhile on certain days, though I'm doing full ATF squats.

    I think there are two key issues:

    First - it sounds like some of this might correlate with the deterioration of your eating/sleeping habits and increase in stress levels. I think going to a MWF might be a good idea, just to get a little more rest.


    If its becoming that much of an issue, I'd say that or even a T-Th split, just for the time being.....during high stress periods I'm always concerned with maintenance more than progress.

    Second - I think you are on to something wiht the conditioning aspect. Again, this is something I'm dealing with, so I'm still figuring out what *I* should do. The approach I'm taking is going to be to conitnue ME/DE work as normal, perhaps more sets for DE (10 to 12 instead of 8). I wouldn't drop the DE %. Typically a less experienced lifter will want to do a higher % on DE day - you may want to wave your box squats from 60% to 70%. The remainder of the workout will become more focused on conditioning, posterior chain, and core.

    Hence the magic of 8-10 rep deadlifts. Those teach you to become immune to pain once they get heavy enough....not to mention a very positive effect on grip.

    An example:

    Monday ME squat:
    Good morning (or whatever ME lift you are on. I'd do them for 2 to 3 weeks)
    Squat 2x15 or 1x20
    ***Here I do full squats for 2-3x5-6, as opposed to the higher range....but I agree totally with the placement.
    GHR
    pull thru
    ***I only work with one of the hamstring exercises, but again it has to be personalized
    incline situps
    maybe a shrug or something

    More sets than usual, and try to do them with less rest.
    ***For conditioning, that's a must.


    I agree with the rest of Paul's advice. I might add that you might want to consider looking at dropsets and other fatigue-accumulation work on your assistance work. This helps with conditioning also.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  11. #11
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Posts
    8,668
    a) My high rep squats are OLY squats. That's where I usually put a quad dominant lift, so I stick to a narrow stance, high bar, ATF squat (and that's why I did them with 135 lbs Monday)

    2) I picked 15-20 reps because I SUCK at them, and doing things you suck at is typically a good idea.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  12. #12
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Posts
    7,850
    Wordness. I must be one of few people that actually gets better leg results by doing a greater volume of 5-6 rep work than 15-20 reps.

    The way I figure, the deads are challenging my work capacity (damn do they challege it), so the squats can be a technique/assistance movement.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •